The dilemma of Jesus as God

[Tom_Baum]

Excellent answer. The thing is though that the Jewish Scriptures have many passages which indicate that God is not solitary. And they start with Genesis where God says " …let us make man in our image and likeness…" In fact there are so many that one wonders how they could have been missed?

Linus2nd

As far as, “In fact there are so many that one wonders how they could have been missed?”

Hindsight, so to speak, works wonders, doesn’t it?

How about the “fact” that God calls Himself ONE, many, many times.

How about the “Shema”?

NO ONE can “explain” the Trinity.

Seems to me that the more that we try to “explain” the Trinity, the more we try to deceive ourselves into thinking that we can “figure out God”.

It is my belief that one can meet the Trinity and still not be able to “explain” the Trinity.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

As far as, “In fact there are so many that one wonders how they could have been missed?”

Hindsight, so to speak, works wonders, doesn’t it?

How about the “fact” that God calls Himself ONE, many, many times.

How about the “Shema”?

NO ONE can “explain” the Trinity.

Seems to me that the more that we try to “explain” the Trinity, the more we try to deceive ourselves into thinking that we can “figure out God”.

It is my belief that one can meet the Trinity and still not be able to “explain” the Trinity.

Don’t think I ever ran into ’ Shema. ’

No, we can never understand the Trinity.

Linus2nd

 

[CrossofChrist]

Will is the the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action. He knows future hence he knows exactly that he cannot do X at moment t. There is only one future and he knows hence he has to act accordingly.

He knows the future so he knows what he will do, yes. But the results in the future don’t determine his actions, they only show what he freely chooses to do.

 

[CrossofChrist]

I think the official teaching of the Church is that Jesus had a human will and a divine will. However, His two wills were perfectly united, that is, the human will always conformed to the divine will, so that there was never any question of one will being different from or contrary to the other.

Good answer.

I believe it was the Third Council of Constantinople that settled this.

 

[Tomdstone]

I think the official teaching of the Church is that Jesus had a human will and a divine will. However, His two wills were perfectly united, that is, the human will always conformed to the divine will, so that there was never any question of one will being different from or contrary to the other.

Problematic:
Luke 22:42
Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.

 

[Louie1983]

Problematic:
Luke 22:42
Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.

I found the below after doing a quick search of the forums, perhaps it might help?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=379300

**II. THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES

1. The Agony in the Garden

It is for the love of His Father above all else that Jesus willed to undergo His Passion.

Behold Jesus Christ in His agony. For three long hours weariness, grief, fear and anguish sweep in upon His soul like a torrent; the pressure of this interior agony is so immense that blood bursts forth from His sacred veins. What an abyss of suffering is reached in this agony! And what does Jesus say to His Father? “Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from Me.” Can it be that Jesus no longer accepts the Will of His Father? Oh! certainly He does. But this prayer is the cry of the sensitive emotions of poor human nature, crushed by ignominy and suffering. Now is Jesus truly a “Man of Sorrows.” Our Savior feels the terrible weight of His agony bearing down upon His shoulders. He wants us to realize this; that is why He utters such a prayer.

But listen to what He immediately adds: “Nevertheless, Father, not My will but Thine be done.” Here is the triumph of love. Because He loves His Father, He places the Will of His Father above everything else and accepts every possible suffering in order to redeem us.**

and another link you could look at, post 5.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=874954

 

[hasantas]

I am very aware of that position. My question was however about whether God could have a plan and whether that exactly match to what should happen?

That plan was not written about 1000000000000… billion years ago. I expressed that knowledge of God is eternal. So there is no a beginning or end for eternity and that plan is not fixed in a past time because eternity enclose all times. Therefor there is no need to say that should that plan match what would happen. That plan surrounds all chances, conditions of atoms, subatoms molecules and also all free will of humans.

 

[hasantas]

Can we say this very same thing about Islam? How passage of God cannot get through?

Yes there have been some wrong thoughts in Islam too. But the major percentage of Muslims maintained the main wright course.

And “How passage of God cannot get through?” what do you mean? I can’t understand, sorry.

 

[Tomdstone]

Because He loves His Father, He places the Will of His Father above everything else …

Is the Divine will of Jesus different from the Divine will of the Father?

 

[Bahman]

He knows the future so he knows what he will do, yes. But the results in the future don’t determine his actions, they only show what he freely chooses to do.

These two sentences contradict each other.

 

[Bahman]

Is the Divine will of Jesus different from the Divine will of the Father?

There is only one divine will if there is one God. But they could have different free will as different persons meaning that when one’s will is at rest the other could act, etc.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is only one divine will if there is one God. But they could have different free will as different persons meaning that when one’s will is at rest the other could act, etc.

The Spirit and Word cannot be different from whom they originate. There is only one divine will as there is only one God.

 

[Bahman]

I wouldn’t say you are wrong, I just think my view makes more sense. Which is, that God foresees every possibility and provides for every contingency in his one creative act. And of course that would include all the " changes " made necessary because of our disobedience.

As far as sin goes, God allows us to use what he has created good for evil purposes. That is what makes sin so horrible, we kind of make God an unwilling partner to our sin. Of course he is not a partner but it is still a great insult to God that we use his creation to commit sin. It is like slapping him in the face, or telling him to " get lost. " It is like stealing something that belongs to someone else. It is like taking a sacred object and grinding it into the mud…

Pax
Linus2nd

Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

That plan was not written about 1000000000000… billion years ago. I expressed that knowledge of God is eternal. So there is no a beginning or end for eternity and that plan is not fixed in a past time because eternity enclose all times. Therefor there is no need to say that should that plan match what would happen. That plan surrounds all chances, conditions of atoms, subatoms molecules and also all free will of humans.

That is very " catholic. "

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

That plan was not written about 1000000000000… billion years ago. I expressed that knowledge of God is eternal. So there is no a beginning or end for eternity and that plan is not fixed in a past time because eternity enclose all times. Therefor there is no need to say that should that plan match what would happen. That plan surrounds all chances, conditions of atoms, subatoms molecules and also all free will of humans.

Hence there is no free will.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?

All I can say is that God knew people would suffer but that he would make things right in the end, the end would be when the scales were all balanced at the final judgment at the end of the world. Of course some things would be balanced in this life. But this is all part of our test, it is about how much trust we place in God’s mercy and justice. God is always merciful and just - sometimes now, sometimes in the after life.

I think Imelhan’s diagram of eternal creation is helpful is seeing this. He didn’t include a ’ line ’ representing the after life but you can imagine it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=932251&page=3

Just curious. Why are you so opposed to the idea of man having free will and/or God having free will? These seem to be the two themes you have stressed for the past year or so, so these ideas must go deep with you.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

Yes there have been some wrong thoughts in Islam too. But the major percentage of Muslims maintained the main wright course.

And “How passage of God cannot get through?” what do you mean? I can’t understand, sorry.

I think I was clear. How message of God could be corrupted if God is omnipotent and omniscience?

 

[Bahman]

All I can say is that God knew people would suffer but that he would make things right in the end, the end would be when the scales were all balanced at the final judgment at the end of the world. Of course some things would be balanced in this life. But this is all part of our test, it is about how much trust we place in God’s mercy and justice. God is always merciful and just - sometimes now, sometimes in the after life.

I think Imelhan’s diagram of eternal creation is helpful is seeing this. He didn’t include a ’ line ’ representing the after life but you can imagine it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=932251&page=3

Linus2nd

I understand what she has in mind but I don’t understand how a eternal act which is singular in time can manifest itself in all diverse forms.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I understand what she has in mind but I don’t understand how a eternal act which is singular in time can manifest itself in all diverse forms.

First of all, Imelahn is a guy, a very intelligent guy, between 30-40 years of age, who is pursuing a PhD in Philosophy and he knows his Thomas Aquinas very well.

Secondly, no one can understand how God, who is eternal, creates creatures, in time, and provides for every contingency at the same time. And we will never be able to understand it, not even in heaven. I said before that I thought God does everything in history by one eternal act. But if you want to think he makes changes as the universe plays out its existence, as we play out our existence, that is fine - I think most people would prefer the latter view.The Catholic Church has no teaching on that point that I am aware of and neither did Thomas Aquinas, that I am aware of, and I don’t know the opinions of the Arab and Jewish philosophers.

But the word ’ manifestation ’ bothers me. I don’t like to use it in the context of creation or of God’s action in the world, because it seems to imply that God’s action in the world is just a projection of himself or of his thought. And neither of these are correct. God’s action in the world is separate from himself. It is his thought and will made actual in the world, it is no manifestation, it is real.

Will be busy until evening - going to serve meals to the hungry.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

First of all, Imelahn is a guy, a very intelligent guy, between 30-40 years of age, who is pursuing a PhD in Philosophy and he knows his Thomas Aquinas very well.

Secondly, no one can understand how God, who is eternal, creates creatures, in time, and provides for every contingency at the same time. And we will never be able to understand it, not even in heaven. I said before that I thought God does everything in history by one eternal act. But if you want to think he makes changes as the universe plays out its existence, as we play out our existence, that is fine - I think most people would prefer the latter view.The Catholic Church has no teaching on that point that I am aware of and neither did Thomas Aquinas, that I am aware of, and I don’t know the opinions of the Arab and Jewish philosophers.

But the word ’ manifestation ’ bothers me. I don’t like to use it in the context of creation or of God’s action in the world, because it seems to imply that God’s action in the world is just a projection of himself or of his thought. And neither of these are correct. God’s action in the world is separate from himself. It is his thought and will made actual in the world, it is no manifestation, it is real.

Will be busy until evening - going to serve meals to the hungry.

Linus2nd

I am wondering how you could be so sure when it comes to your philosophy of God and creation at some point, at the same time deliberately claim we cannot understand God from creation even in Heaven. Do you know a philosophy (who belong to Thomas, etc) you can defend it with full support?