The dilemma of Jesus as God

[fred_conty]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

I believe what you are originally saying in your opening statement is…knowledge of the future makes it happen that way.

So if God knew all events that will take place then that knowledge makes those events happen.

But we have had several discussions in CAF on this very subject, that is, that knowledge about something doesn’t make it happen…knowledge remains only knowledge.

But in the case of God, it is argued that it does make it happen. But if I know some event that will absolutely happen, like the Sun rising in the east, does that make the sun rise? And God’s knowledge of the Sun rising in the east, does that make the sun rise?

Knowledge remains knowledge only and does not make something happen.

God may know all about me and all I will ever do and think. But his knowledge does not interfer with what I want to do or think because I know I am free…self evident. What God has is knowledge of all that I will ever chose to do or to think.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Don’t think I ever ran into ’ Shema. ’

No, we can never understand the Trinity.

Linus2nd

The Shema is also called “The Great Commandment” and it is written in Deuteronomy, chapter 6 verses 4-9:

Listen, Israel, God is our Lord, God is One.
Love God your Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.
These words which I am commanding you today must remain on your heart.
Teach them to your children and speak of them when you are at home, when traveling on the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
Bind [these words] as a sign on your hand, and let them be an emblem in the center of your head.
[Also] write them on [parchments affixed to] the doorposts of your houses and gates.
.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Problematic:
Luke 22:42
Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.

I think that this should give us inspiration in that even Jesus needed to pray and ask for help in doing what He not only came here to do but also made the decision to come here and do it.

I think also that this verse is something to ponder about.

Might even make some think that there was more to the Incarnation than they might have thought.

Some seem to think that it was a cakewalk for Jesus.

Some seem to think that everything that Jesus did was merely symbolic.

Some seem to think that when Jesus cried out from the cross, “My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me”, that Jesus thought it was a good time to say a psalm and this psalm was as good as any to say, rather than this psalm coming true right in front of us.

This, among other things, is one of the reasons why I think/believe that Jesus gave up His Omnis, voluntarily, in the Incarnation.

 

[Tom_Baum]

He knows the future so he knows what he will do, yes. But the results in the future don’t determine his actions, they only show what he freely chooses to do.

By “He” in “He knows the future so he knows what he will do”, I suppose that you are speaking of Jesus, are you?

If you are, than what about what is written in the bible about Jesus that “He was like us in ALL ways except sin”, do you know the future?

I sure don’t and if Jesus did, He sure was nothing like me especially if He was also Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient in His Incarnation.

So do you consider the verse/s about “Jesus being just like us in ALL ways except sin” absolutely meaningless or an out and out lie?

 

[hasantas]

Excellent answer. The thing is though that the Jewish Scriptures have many passages which indicate that God is not solitary. And they start with Genesis where God says " …let us make man in our image and likeness…" In fact there are so many that one wonders how they could have been missed?

Linus2nd

There are some similar statements in Quran too. But that does not mean that there are plural Gods. Those statements are being interpret in some ways. One is that : God is the most high and beyond all imagines of Godness which human could image. The other is that God make angels witness to His acts.

… Ofcourse these statements are much likely to be interpret in some wondrous ways but we must focus on general statements to not go wrong on some adventural ways!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sounds like semantics in that if the Quran or the Bible admit plural Gods then they would both be wrong is asserting there is one God according to their own belief and faith. Im sure both had a good reason in the use of plural language.

So do you consider the verse/s about “Jesus being just like us in ALL ways except sin” absolutely meaningless or an out and out lie?

Good question, I have a so-so answer, I consider it the absolute truth since its affirmed God cannot lie, and myself blessed in that God would have me know Him. In that I’m a sinner and can never really know this perfection of Holiness but only what I am by Him allowed to know at any given point. So I take it to mean He in me is the good He is like, the sin, no. Surely God keeps His own commandments and to assimilate is to be like God.

 

[hasantas]

I think I was clear. How message of God could be corrupted if God is omnipotent and omniscience?

Humanbeing is in an exam. If God prevent men to do bad things then there would not be any mean in exam.

God allow humans to do whatever he select so some can kill other can reject God and some other can burn scriptures or change it. Also God gives power to humans to do these things. The selection is belong to human so responsible is belong to humans. If God impose human to do right then there would not be any prize for human. And not all human change revelation. There has been allways the true messages in all times. There are many people who served messages. But again, human is free to change or not because God give permisssion for sake of exam.

God has an eternal will and omniscience. God’s will relate and depend on human wills. When free will of humans make a choice then free will of God create that. If you say that is God bound to create what human will?

If God does not create what human will then how would God exam human. God willed to exam human hence God create everythings in extremely balanced orders as we see in physical laws. If God change these laws and do not do what human select with free will then there would be many unfairs. Again, God is not unjust.

 

[Bahman]

Humanbeing is in an exam. If God prevent men to do bad things then there would not be any mean in exam.

God allow humans to do whatever he select so some can kill other can reject God and some other can burn scriptures or change it. Also God gives power to humans to do these things. The selection is belong to human so responsible is belong to humans. If God impose human to do right then there would not be any prize for human. And not all human change revelation. There has been allways the true messages in all times. There are many people who served messages. But again, human is free to change or not because God give permisssion for sake of exam.

God has an eternal will and omniscience. God’s will relate and depend on human wills. When free will of humans make a choice then free will of God create that. If you say that is God bound to create what human will?

If God does not create what human will then how would God exam human. God willed to exam human hence God create everythings in extremely balanced orders as we see in physical laws. If God change these laws and do not do what human select with free will then there would be many unfairs. Again, God is not unjust.

You didn’t answer my question!

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I am wondering how you could be so sure when it comes to your philosophy of God and creation at some point, at the same time deliberately claim we cannot understand God from creation even in Heaven. Do you know a philosophy (who belong to Thomas, etc) you can defend it with full support?

There is a big, infinite difference between explaining what God does and how he does it or understanding his nature.. We can understand what God does, but we will never know how he does it and we will never comprehend his nature.

All I have done is to tell you what he does and what his nature is. The first is a matter open to philosophy and also has been revealed by God. And some of the second is open to philosophy and some depends solely on revelation.

But the understanding of how God can be three Persons or how he never had a beginning and will never have an end is something only God will ever know. We can see the necessity of it but we cannot understand it and never will be able to understand it.

Linus2nd

 

[hasantas]

You didn’t answer my question!

Then I did not understand your question. What is your question?

 

[tonyrey]

Have you ever experienced this way. That someone is in you? I experience all of them but I am not special.

That is where you are sadly mistaken. We are all special - without exception! We are created to love and be loved. That is why there is no dilemma that Jesus is God…

 

[Bahman]

Then I did not understand your question. What is your question?

How a omnipotent and omniscient God could not make his message to get through?

 

[Bahman]

There is a big, infinite difference between explaining what God does and how he does it or understanding his nature.. We can understand what God does, but we will never know how he does it and we will never comprehend his nature.

All I have done is to tell you what he does and what his nature is. The first is a matter open to philosophy and also has been revealed by God. And some of the second is open to philosophy and some depends solely on revelation.

But the understanding of how God can be three Persons or how he never had a beginning and will never have an end is something only God will ever know. We can see the necessity of it but we cannot understand it and never will be able to understand it.

Linus2nd

The main question is not why and who, but how.

 

[Tomdstone]

How a omnipotent and omniscient God could not make his message to get through?

Well, obviously, different people understand the message differently. For a Jew, God is one person, undivided, the same now as He was before the coming of Jesus. For a Catholic, God is three Persons.

 

[Bahman]

Well, obviously, different people understand the message differently. For a Jew, God is one person, undivided, the same now as He was before the coming of Jesus. For a Catholic, God is three Persons.

So I repeat my question again: How a omnipotent and omniscient God could not make his message to get through? The main reason for repeating is a God who is omniscient knows how to convey his message so it could not be any conflict in understanding. Hence how he could fail?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

There are some similar statements in Quran too. But that does not mean that there are plural Gods. Those statements are being interpret in some ways. One is that : God is the most high and beyond all imagines of Godness which human could image. The other is that God make angels witness to His acts.

… Ofcourse these statements are much likely to be interpret in some wondrous ways but we must focus on general statements to not go wrong on some adventural ways!

Of course the Catholic Church interprets them differently. It seems a stretch to think God would use the royal ’ we ’ or that he would be thinking of angels when he said these things.

Linus2nd

 

[fred_conty]

So I repeat my question again: How a omnipotent and omniscient God could not make his message to get through? The main reason for repeating is a God who is omniscient knows how to convey his message so it could not be any conflict in understanding. Hence how he could fail?

He didn’t fail, we did…sin.

The same question could be asked of the angels. The answer is the same…sin.

We are all sinners and still sinning. So we have darkness as St. John expresses in the beginning of his gospel.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The main question is not why and who, but how.

I said we will not know ’ how ’ God does these things because that would imply that we would understand God’s very nature as he does and that will never be possible.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

I said we will not know ’ how ’ God does these things because that would imply that we would understand God’s very nature as he does and that will never be possible.
Linus2nd

Well, then I can argue that we came out X (nothingness worse case scenario, etc.). How? I don’t know! :bounce: So to me how is not the first question about a system of belief but the very important question which validates the system of belief. What you think?

 

[hasantas]

The main question is not why and who, but how.

The question must be “why” but not “how”. Because there is no thing which God cannot do. But God does not everything whatever we can think. Forexample God is never to be unjust so isn’t God omnipotent? Can God not get all humans in Heavens or Hell? …

Well we must focus on why God allow revelation to be corrupted otherwise a question how God cannot protect His revelation is not use. And there is no use to argue on that issue any more.

And ıf you mean that revelation has been corrupted so indeed that revelation is not belong to God and anyhow there is no God… That is a very fallacious argument. That is all.