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Bahman
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I don’t understand your definition.
Well, yes. If God create everything then he create evil too. By the way, how you could be sure that Islam is not a work of Satan?
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hasantas
Guest
There have beeen many prophets in different locations at same time. But by the time the revelations either has been forgatten or been changed. Because of that God went on send prophets.
If some claim that universe could be occured by itself or chances then he must show some examples. Is there any laws which can be by chances? Could order of universe happen by chances? Does the beauty and art on the world maybe by chances or laws? Which law has an ability of art? Could the source of life be dead, unconscious and blind laws and possibilities? That universe needs an effect and reason or cause. God is omnipotent, omniscience and has attributes of art, beauty and life. So that effect must be God but nothing else.
That is a bit long but shortly: There is no degrees in eternal attributes so it is not important how the work is difficult or heavy. God can create an atom and by the same way God create a star. For power of God both are equal.
Moraly high people with moral discovery see the manifestation of power, life and other attributes of God.
With miracles which God gave to prophets God shows and proved that God is source and creator of laws because God can change that laws with miracles. You can look at miracles of prophet.
There are more…
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hasantas
Guest
I mean the devil is some of creature which we cannot see. If you respect existence of devil then you must respect God because God created that.
That is claim of inexperienced. Could you show a verse from Quran which could be from Satan?
Well… Satan deceived Muhammed (pbuh) and Muhammed is to be the moraly most high human?
We learn high morality from Muhammed. Millions of people experienced what Muhammed tought. And they verify Muhammed and the all principles which Muhammed tought are true, moraly high. If there have been a fake activity from Muhammed then Sahabas wolud determine that. Because Sahabas view all situations of Muhammed. If Muhammed was a liar that would be certain in a short time. But the most wild enemy of Muhammed couldn’t say something like that because they have not seen any lie or wrong thing from Muhammed. …
And some assert that Satan deceived Muhammed. Very funny!
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Bahman
Guest
Lets forget that. I have thousands of scenarios at my disposal which non of them make any help.
Yes, he needs as you need. Hence you and atheist are equal toward divine justice unless one knows how.
Non of what you mention can cut and provide a reason for God existence. Lets consider beauty as an example. Beauty is related to feeling which it is opposite to thought. Hence beauty has nothing to do with reason meaning that we could not use it as an objective reality to prove anything.
How God could create?
Yes. I know them, they call themselves prophets. Yet we are here since no prophet could deliver a message about HOW!?
Miracle. Huh? I want to see how God could perform his grand miracle, creation. Otherwise I won’t believe anything.
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Tomdstone
Guest
How do you explain Thomas? John 20:24-29.
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Bahman
Guest
And they can deceive any human being.
Do you practice Namaz? Consider the Hamd Suoreh with Tohid Soureh. In Hamd we say that only God is deserved to be worshiped. In Tohid we say that God is Samad, meaning that it doesn’t need anything. Don’t you see any contradiction. Moreover, Goran is filled with assigning humanistic attributes to God. My list is endless. I can provide more if you are not satisfied.
I thought that is Jesus who is the most morally human being. But nevertheless do you know the story of Maria? The slave that Muhammad slept with it. Then another wife realize, which causing Muhammad confess that he has done a mistake. Hence, he was not perfect. I don’t know where did you get the idea of morally most high human being. That you be a simple person noone but God knows about hence popularity doesn’t mean anything.
You got me wrong. I meant that Satan could present himself as a Angle from God to Muhammad. That is what I meant with deceiving. How Muhammad could be 100% sure about what happened to him?
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Bahman
Guest
I don’t know what he has seen. Yet, nothing can impress me but work of God, creation. How could we be sure? Any person with divine power can impress us and that doesn’t mean that they are God.
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Linusthe2nd
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Bahman
Guest
Yes, but when? We all might end up in the land of delusions as we are partially now.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
There is no reason to believe Muhammed ever had a vision and if he did it was certainly no angel of light. So we could turn the O.P. around and call it " The dilemma of Muhammed as a prophet of God. " Naturally the Sahabas would defend the story, they had propheted by it for centuries, they had piled up booty, lands, influence, wives, power. Naturally they defended it. And it still goes on. And you see nothing wrong with the Qu’ran? That is truly amazing. Why has Islam spread primarily through fear of violence rather than by persuasion? Look at what is going on all over Africa, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Syria, you call that intellectual persuasion? And that has been what Islam has done from the beginning. Strange way to spread the truth. " Convert or die! " So peaceful and loving.
Linus2nd
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hasantas
Guest
Prophets are sinless because God protect them. Satan could not take shape and form of Muhammed because God banned that. Satan deceive human to do bad thing s not to do good things.
There is no contradiction. If ı do not perform what will be lack in God? Nothing. So God needs nothing. But Human need to worship because human is weak and need help.
Human was created like form of Rahman(a name and attribute of Allah). Human get life from life of God. God give soul, mind, power. God gave human these attributes to inform Himself(God). If human couldn’t see then human would not understand the eternal view of God. We purpose to get moral values of God. So the definition humanistic attributes for God is for human to understand God. Example God is most generous. God is most high. God is love and lover. etc.
Non of human is perfect but God is. Because human need eating, drinking, sleeping and gettin marriage etc. There is no anything wrong with marriages of Muhammed. Muslims are not blind. If they would see that problematic they would state that. As a human Muhammed is the most high in every way. İn morality, miracles, religion etc. With Mirach and Quran miracles Muhammed shows that. Jesus is high too but Muhammed come first.
What do you suppose happen to Him? I know very well but do you?
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Bahman
Guest
That is not correct. There are numerous stories about prophet who did sin.
But that is what you declare in Namaz. Only God deserves to be worshiped.
So Muslim judge in position of God too.
He we a human being like me and you and there was no way to make a difference between a good angel and Satan hence he convey the message of Satan.
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tonyrey
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Bahman
Guest
We were talking about believing.Do you by any chance believe in your power of reason?**
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Reason just can tell you what God isn’t.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Sorry you feel deluded, I don’t feel that way. Anyone who honestly seeks the truth will eventually find it. I guess that would be my final answer.
Linus2nd
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hasantas
Guest
The fault is different from sin. Prophets are humanbeing so prophets can make mistake in worldly works but prophets never sin. God protect them.
Humanbeing needs to worship and only God deserve that. What is problem?
Sorry. What do you mean???
That is not use to assert such thing. You deceive yuorself with that but you cannot get out of responsibility. You must prove that. And ıf Satan deceieved Muhammed then all human is more evil than Satan because nobody can approach to Mıuhammed as humanity and morality.
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Bahman
Guest
I rather protect the prophet from mistake than sin if I was God.
Nah. Human doesn’t need to worship. What human needs is the truth.
The act worship is either correct or not. I am not going to give my view here but what it is given in Goran. God cannot be simply in place a being who deserves to be worshiped and in another place needless since the act worshiping God is directed to fulfill a need.
First of all, God does not rank people.
Second of all, all prophet are all equal if they are protected from sin. So there is no higher moral being and less moral being.
You said that prophet can do mistake hence they can be deceived.
I of course take the responsibility of what I do, say and think.
Look in Guran and you will find contradictions. The right that you could have a slave. Man has higher right and value than woman. The right that you could enemy of God in the name of God (God apparently has no enemy). The command to stone or kill to death…
How do you know that Muhammad was the best in humanity and morality?
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NeuralMonk
Guest
A God of reason and order created the universe who has disorder in the spiritual realm is an interesting theory. Or are the evidentiary laws of the universe just a mirage?
Maybe this God of order, who created everything from nothing went insane? Just guessing here.
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NeuralMonk
Guest
Wow, that is deterministic of you Bahman. You surprise me here with this answer as it doesn’t fit your philosophy.
Could it be that evil is defined as anti-God or a choice against the one who makes the rules? If it is a choice of a free willed entity, then how is God responsible for it? Unless the entity does not have free will.
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NeuralMonk
Guest
Is that revealed in the Quran? Sorry, read the book but I honestly don’t recall that revelation. If it is in the Quran, that is convent for Muhammed to give himself that grace. If it is not… I am confused about final revelation that the Quran represents.
Human’s do need worship, but not the worship given by angels. All prophets up till Muhammed received the revelation directly from God. Muhammed received his worship instructions from Gabriel.
Could it be that the “angel” who showed himself to Muhammed (assuming this is accurate), gave Muhammed the worship instructions for angels, and not for humans? Maybe this worship done by angels is not proper for human’s and Gabriel, like Lucifer went off the reservation of God’s truth? Just a theory.
Seems convenient to be the guy who has a view contrary to all other accounts of God’s revealed nature, come and claim that all other revelations are corrupt and his accounts are the only truth on the earth.
Tell me again why Jesus is so high of a prophet if he messed it up so badly? I mean seriously, the guy didn’t get the proper message out, but Muhammed did.
Oh, wait. Muhammed could not read or write. So he didn’t write it down, it was all memorized. So the real question is why Peter got it wrong and Zayd ibn Thabit got it correct.
Let see, “I never did receive a revelation without feeling my soul had been torn from me.” And those who heard it first, “It is the sounds of a poet possessed.” What was that about a loving God?
But then again we will never know because the gap between Muhammed and the actual Quran is so large, we don’t have any living being who can vouch for if these statements are real, or the designing of some early scribes.
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