The dilemma of Jesus as God

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hasantas said:
The fault is different from sin. Prophets are humanbeing so prophets can make mistake in worldly works but prophets never sin. God protect them.
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So all I have to do is claim to be a prophet, create some poetry out of my headaches, and I get to be sinless? šŸ˜ƒ
 
NeuralMonk said:
Wow, that is deterministic of you Bahman. You surprise me here with this answer as it doesnā€™t fit your philosophy.

Could it be that evil is defined as anti-God or a choice against the one who makes the rules? If it is a choice of a free willed entity, then how is God responsible for it? Unless the entity does not have free will.
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That was a response to him considering his definition of evil.

I donā€™t equate good and evil to right and wrong. Right to me is is a quality experienced in consciousness which directs us toward an end, opposite to wrong. Good is a quality experienced in consciousness which direct the states of mind to unity whereas evil diversitize the states of mind.
 
=Bahman;12624601] God cannot be simply in place a being who deserves to be worshiped and in another place needless since the act worshiping God is directed to fulfill a need.
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God give foods but God does not need food. To worship for human is part of exam. God wish but not need human to worship.
First of all, God does not rank people.
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Second of all, all prophet are all equal if they are protected from sin. So there is no higher moral being and less moral being.
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  1. The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. ā€œWe make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers.ā€ And they say: ā€œWe hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.ā€ Al-Baqarah-285
Right there is no distinction between prophets as a prophet because all are messeenger of God. People are equal as human but all human have no same attributes, moral because some could be more high. And if some never beleive in God and never worship then could that be equal to who has a faith and worship God? There are degrees in faith and worship and Muhammed was the highest by every point.
You said that prophet can do mistake hence they can be deceived.
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If a man shows signs and indications of prophethood there is no need to say that he is deceived. Ofcourse there may be some false prophets and we can see the samples but Muhammed is seal of prophet. Muhammed perfomed about 1000 miracles. The Hadiths and Quran are obvious and millions take high morality from them. That cannot be work of a ā€œlegentā€ satan.
Look in Guran and you will find contradictions. The right that you could have a slave. Man has higher right and value than woman. The right that you could enemy of God in the name of God (God apparently has no enemy). The command to stone or kill to deathā€¦
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Quran revoke slaves gradually. First proptect rights of slaves finally gave them freedom. Are woman and man equal as physical, psychological, anatomical? Quran in those sense give rights. And the woman has the most high value in Islam according to others. Who reject God and struggle against religion of God then that is enemy of God. But when he leave rejection and does not struggle against religion then he is lover of God.

That command was for some conditions. When some attack and intend to kill Muslim then God give permission do do that. But when they ask for mercy and have no hostility then nobody has right to kill other. If some kill other as unjust it is as if he kill all human.
 
NeuralMonk said:
So all I have to do is claim to be a prophet, create some poetry out of my headaches, and I get to be sinless? šŸ˜ƒ
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If you can then bring some poetry! Quran cahallenge for that and for about 1400 years nobody could do that. Perhaps you can do. We all wait and we are not in hurry.
 
=NeuralMonk;12625011]Is that revealed in the Quran? Sorry, read the book but I honestly donā€™t recall that revelation. If it is in the Quran, that is convent for Muhammed to give himself that grace. If it is notā€¦ I am confused about final revelation that the Quran represents.
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Not in Quran but in Hadiths. Satan can take shape of anybody but Satan cannot form of Muhammed. So who see Muhammed in dream then that is exact Muhammed.
Humanā€™s do need worship, but not the worship given by angels. All prophets up till Muhammed received the revelation directly from God. Muhammed received his worship instructions from Gabriel.
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Could it be that the ā€œangelā€ who showed himself to Muhammed (assuming this is accurate), gave Muhammed the worship instructions for angels, and not for humans? Maybe this worship done by angels is not proper for humanā€™s and Gabriel, like Lucifer went off the reservation of Godā€™s truth? Just a theory.
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That is funny. Muhammed was not an Angel but a human and Muhammed was send to humanbeing. Some must show how woman must worship. Gabriel can form like a human. Gabriel tought Muhammed how he worship and Muhammed tought people. If that worships were for Angel then why Gabriel tought Muhammed? Can Gabriel do anything out of permission of God?
Seems convenient to be the guy who has a view contrary to all other accounts of Godā€™s revealed nature, come and claim that all other revelations are corrupt and his accounts are the only truth on the earth.
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Tell me again why Jesus is so high of a prophet if he messed it up so badly? I mean seriously, the guy didnā€™t get the proper message out, but Muhammed did.
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Jesus and other prophets never did anything wrong. But as you know there is no one Bible and Gospels were written by several men and we have not the real text in original language. If some translate Quran in other language that translation cannot be equal to original text as in Arabic. I do not mean that the Arabic is so more high than others but the text in Arabic is the exact speech of Allah(God). Ä°s there any other scripture as Quran?
Oh, wait. Muhammed could not read or write. So he didnā€™t write it down, it was all memorized. So the real question is why Peter got it wrong and Zayd ibn Thabit got it correct.
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Zayd ibn Thabit did not wrote by himself. He was chair of commission. You can look at work of commission. It was a meticulous work. But on the otherhand even we have not the original text of Peter.
Let see, ā€œI never did receive a revelation without feeling my soul had been torn from me.ā€ And those who heard it first, ā€œIt is the sounds of a poet possessed.ā€ What was that about a loving God?
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Donā€™t you ever get suffer, being ill or poor. Do you not ever an ache? If you are afflicted with that then does God not love you but you have faith? The revelation had e vey heavy morality. Moses could not resist to see reflection of God on month only for a short time.
But then again we will never know because the gap between Muhammed and the actual Quran is so large, we donā€™t have any living being who can vouch for if these statements are real, or the designing of some early scribes.
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In that sense we could not believe in any prophet neither in Moses nor in Jesus.
 
Bahman said:
That makes sense to me considering what the objection was about, namely we couldnā€™t be free if God design things to the last digit.
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God is quite capable of designing and creating beings who are free to choose what to believe and how to liveā€¦
 
tonyrey said:
God is quite capable of designing and creating beings who are free to choose what to believe and how to liveā€¦
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Free will is an illusion if the last digit in the design is fixed. How you could be disagree?
 
Bahman said:
Free will is an illusion if the last digit in the design is fixed. How you could be disagree?
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Disagree, because your argument is baseless. The arguments provided seems to me to be a serious of unsupported assertions mixed in with an number of logical fallacies.
 
davidv said:
Disagree, because your argument is baseless. The arguments provided seems to me to be a serious of unsupported assertions mixed in with an number of logical fallacies.
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So please read the discussion in here.
 
hasantas said:
Not in Quran but in Hadiths. Satan can take shape of anybody but Satan cannot form of Muhammed. So who see Muhammed in dream then that is exact Muhammed.
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Sorry but you just contradicted yourself. I will paraphrase: 1. We get all truth from Quran which is the only source of true revelation. 2. This truths is from Hadiths. Or does the Quran stated that imamā€™s have the ability to make up Hadiths which become part of the non-changing Quran. This sounds confusing.
hasantas said:
That is funny. Muhammed was not an Angel but a human and Muhammed was send to humanbeing. Some must show how woman must worship. Gabriel can form like a human. Gabriel tought Muhammed how he worship and Muhammed tought people. If that worships were for Angel then why Gabriel tought Muhammed? Can Gabriel do anything out of permission of God?
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Maybe Lucifer has the ability to deceive. Maybe he deceived Muhammed that he was Gabriel JUST like he deceived Ishta in the garden.
Lucifer was an angel. Lucifer rebelled against God. Did God give him permission?

The first deception was too bold, mankind could not become like God. The second deception was more subtle, mankind should not worship like angels. Just a theory mind you for the sake of discussion only.
hasantas said:
Jesus and other prophets never did anything wrong. But as you know there is no one Bible and Gospels were written by several men and we have not the real text in original language.
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We doā€¦ lots of the real text in original language.
hasantas said:
If some translate Quran in other language that translation cannot be equal to original text as in Arabic. I do not mean that the Arabic is so more high than others but the text in Arabic is the exact speech of Allah(God).
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Stated by a man could could not read or write.
hasantas said:
Ä°s there any other scripture as Quran?
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Ancient literature (scholar) perspectiveā€¦ the New Testament.
hasantas said:
Zayd ibn Thabit did not wrote by himself. He was chair of commission. You can look at work of commission. It was a meticulous work.
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He was the editor. Editors ALWAYS have the ability to change a work of literature. None of the verses had order, Zayd brought that order as he saw fit. Just like the Catholic church weeded through the scriptures to choose the best, most accurate representation, Zayd choose what is in the Quran. Even if we could authenticate that Muhammad actually spoke these words, it was Zayd who made the Quran.
hasantas said:
But on the otherhand even we have not the original text of Peter.
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First, Second, and Third Peter are available for your reading.
hasantas said:
Moses could not resist to see reflection of God on month only for a short time.
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You donā€™t know that because both you and Muhammad are using the Talmudā€¦ oh wait, Muhammad would listen to the Talmud and Gospels, and believed what he heard, but you donā€™t.
hasantas said:
In that sense we could not believe in any prophet neither in Moses nor in Jesus.
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Not quite. The gap between Jesus and the earliest manuscript is 40 years. Unless people donā€™t live for more than 60 years of age, but they do. It is first hand accounts, not only in the gospels, but also in the Roman documents, Jewish document, etc. And that is just the manuscripts, not to mention the writerā€™s words, passed by scribes.

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched.

I donā€™t think Zayd ever looked at, touched or handled Muhammad. John and Peter did of Jesus.
 
If Jesus Christ was not God, then there is no reason we should believe what others say about, so called, prophets, wise men, etc. no matter what tradition they come from. Because that is like a dog chasing its tail.

Linus2nd
 
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