The Dilemma: the Christian Conception of Jesus vs. the Muslim Conception of Jesus

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Seek truth. Seek it with all your heart. I am beginning to wonder if your “dilemma” is real at all and you’re not just playing a mind game with us. Your words are not the words of someone who cares about truth.
It is real and that is not the only contradiction.

(a) Trinity is totally rejected. Jesus is neither God, nor Son of God (in the literal sense). Jesus was a human prophet and not divine.

(b) Muslims worship only God, the one and only the creator of the universe.

(c) This God (the Quran refers to as Allah) is the God and creator of Jesus and is the same God that Jesus in the current Bible refers to as Father and to whom Jesus used to pray.

(d) Muslims consider Mohammad, Moses, and Jesus as prophets and messengers sent by God (“messengers” is term that refers to prophets who brought holy scriptures to their people as a message from God). These prophets were human beings, not divine, and should not be worship directly or indirectly.

(e) Muslims believe that each human being can be called son/daughter of God because he/she was created by God. So there is nothing special or divine about Jesus being called son of God and therefore Jesus should not be worshiped.

(f) Finally, angels (such as Gabriel) are servants/agents of God. Angels are created by God; therefore, they are not divine and should not be worshiped.
 
It is real and that is not the only contradiction.

(a) Trinity is totally rejected. Jesus is neither God, nor Son of God (in the literal sense). Jesus was a human prophet and not divine.

(b) Muslims worship only God, the one and only the creator of the universe.

(c) This God (the Quran refers to as Allah) is the God and creator of Jesus and is the same God that Jesus in the current Bible refers to as Father and to whom Jesus used to pray.

(d) Muslims consider Mohammad, Moses, and Jesus as prophets and messengers sent by God (“messengers” is term that refers to prophets who brought holy scriptures to their people as a message from God). These prophets were human beings, not divine, and should not be worship directly or indirectly.

(e) Muslims believe that each human being can be called son/daughter of God because he/she was created by God. So there is nothing special or divine about Jesus being called son of God and therefore Jesus should not be worshiped.

(f) Finally, angels (such as Gabriel) are servants/agents of God. Angels are created by God; therefore, they are not divine and should not be worshiped.
Muslims got their idea of God, etc. from corrupted teachings from heregical christian sects. So their views are not to be taken seriously as representing the truth.

Linus2nd
 
Muslims got their idea of God, etc. from corrupted teachings from heregical christian sects. So their views are not to be taken seriously as representing the truth.
Linus2nd
We didn’t need Jesus either to inform us about hell, heaven, God, love, etc since these ideas were proclaimed!
 
(e) Muslims believe that each human being can be called son/daughter of God because he/she was created by God. So there is nothing special or divine about Jesus being called son of God and therefore Jesus should not be worshiped.
Jesus makes the very same argument concerning himself in the Gospel of John.

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” John 10:31-37
 
Jesus makes the very same argument concerning himself in the Gospel of John.
Actually, I do not think the Moslems believe we are “sons of God” - for a good reason: God, being un-understandable, cannot be understood to be the “Father” of anyone or anything. For - and this is the Moslem argument - fathers beget by sex. The Moslem considers it blasphemy to say God has had sex.
(c) This God (the Quran refers to as Allah) is the God and creator of Jesus and is the same God that Jesus in the current Bible refers to as Father and to whom Jesus used to pray.
Not entirely true, for the reasons given above. A Moslem would be offended by anyone, Christian or otherwise, who said that God could beget a Son. Their entire religion is founded on a God who is totally alien to, other than, and above us.
 
I am beginning to wonder if your “dilemma” is real at all and you’re not just playing a mind game with us.
I am providing a real life example to illustrate a point; There is no more reason to believe in the authority of the Bible than there is to believe in the authority of the Qur’an. The only reason you do so is because you have been culturally conditioned to do so. If you had been raised in a Muslim culture, then you more than likely believe in quranic view of Jesus, not the biblical view of Jesus.
 
Actually, I do not think the Moslems believe we are “sons of God” - for a good reason: God, being un-understandable, cannot be understood to be the “Father” of anyone or anything. For - and this is the Moslem argument - fathers beget by sex. The Moslem considers it blasphemy to say God has had sex.
You’re entirely missing the point. Jesus never claimed to be the one and only incarnation of God (which would have been blasphemous according to Jewish law).
 
We didn’t need Jesus either to inform us about hell, heaven, God, love, etc since these ideas were proclaimed!
And how do you know there ever was a revelation to Muhammad? The word of a pack of murderers. Very good source! Muhammad used corrupted versions of Christianity proclaim his reinterpretation of the corrupted version of Christianity to win over a fighting force to wage war and loot surrounding peoples.

Christianity was 600 years old before Muhammad came along. And Judaism was 3,000 years older. So Muhammad comes along and claims we had it all wrong for nearly 4,000 years. Right!

Glad to see you finally " comint out, " know we know where we stand.

Linus2nd
 
And how do you know there ever was a revelation to Muhammad? The word of a pack of murderers. Very good source! Muhammad used corrupted versions of Christianity proclaim his reinterpretation of the corrupted version of Christianity to win over a fighting force to wage war and loot surrounding peoples.

Christianity was 600 years old before Muhammad came along. And Judaism was 3,000 years older. So Muhammad comes along and claims we had it all wrong for nearly 4,000 years. Right!

Glad to see you finally " comint out, " know we know where we stand.

Linus2nd
I am not supporting Mohammad revelation either. My question is that why God should incarnate himself to tell us the truth which a simple messenger could tell, then die on the cross, then resurrect himself, to clean us for the sins. You could say we cannot understand. I would say that how you could be sure that you know the truth unless you judge the truth meanwhile no understanding the truth. Does what I said make any sense?
 
The Bible seems to suggest otherwise.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36
I’m not sure what translation of the Bible you’re using, but it doesn’t agree with mine. Here’s what the New American Bible says for John 3:36:
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”
Here’s the verse from the New Revised Standard Version:
“36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.”
Here’s the verse from the New International Version:
“36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”
In Koine Greek, the word that are variously translated as “believeth not,” “disobeys,” “rejects,” or “believes in” is apeithon.

It would seem that Protestants, who frequently put forward a “sola fides” (only faith) version of salvation would want “believeth not” to be the translation of apeithon, while Catholics might take the other version. The problem is, the word appears no where else in the Fourth Gospel. But we’re not out of luck! As explained in this evangelical Protestant blog, apeithon occurs in other New Testament writings, including Romans 2:5-8 (NAB translation shown):
“5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey (apeithon) the truth and obey wickedness.”
(I would put big flashing lights around this verse to highlight to my Protestant brothers and sisters how Paul talks about God’s judgment).

Here are the references for where else apeithon appears in the New Testament: Acts 14:2; 19:9; Rom. 2:8; 10:21; 11:30; 11:31; 15:31; Heb. 3:18; 11:31; 1 Pet. 3:1; 3:20; 4:17.

So it appears that you’re translation is not accurately reflecting what the author of the Fourth Gospel intended. apeithon can only be translated as “disbelief” in the sense of epistemic doubt in Jesus’ divinity if you screen out the rest of the New Testament, including the Gospel of John itself! The Greek word describes a belief that is broader than cognitive assent to orthodox Christology: it involves disobedience and rejection as well.
However, if I am not required to believe that Jesus is God incarnated in order to be saved, then perhaps I should play it safe and just accept the Muslim view of Jesus. Right?
The problem with that is that you would have to accept a view that no secular historian would endorse: the Muslim teaching that Jesus did not die on the cross. The only reason someone would ever believe that is that they are a Muslim and their faith requires them to believe that the Messiah could not die, even if he was resurrected.
 
I am providing a real life example to illustrate a point; There is no more reason to believe in the authority of the Bible than there is to believe in the authority of the Qur’an. The only reason you do so is because you have been culturally conditioned to do so. If you had been raised in a Muslim culture, then you more than likely believe in quranic view of Jesus, not the biblical view of Jesus.
As to the view of cultural conditioning, you’re right. However, it’s important to actually evaluate the available information in an objective manner, which I believe can be done. (As a Catholic, I believe in objective reality and objective truth).

I’ve already talked about how scholars like Juynboll and Schacht have pretty convincingly shown that the hadith cannot be traced to earlier to about 100 years post-Hijra (AH, the Muslim calender based on Muhammad and his followers’ flight to Medina).

A majority of the stories from the Quran itself have historical antecedents in Christian and Jewish cultures of the lands surrounding the Hijaz (where Muhammad grew up, and which the first generations of Caliphs after Muhammad conquered quickly).

The Quran has a story of Jesus as a child making some clay birds, and then blowing into them. They come to life and fly away. That story originated in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, a 2nd-century apocryphal gospel (in keeping with the trends in infancy gospels during that phase of Christianity). The Infancy Gospel of Thomas was later incorporated in the Syriac Infancy Gospel, which was written in the language widely used in the lands conquered by the first generations of Muslim armies. The story was widely-popular in the region. Nearly all objective Bible scholars date the original story to the late 2nd century.

What’s more likely? OPTION 1: That the Infancy Gospel of James, which nearly all scholars attribute to at least 150 years after the death of Jesus and was widely-circulated in the lands conquered by Muslims, would be adopted by the author/s of the Quran. OPTION 2: That Muslims are right that the Infancy Gospel of James actually reflects a true story about the early Jesus, which the Quran miraculously retold correctly, but that most Christians outside the Syriac-speaking world of the 6th century had never heard of?

For another example, the Quran’s story of “the Companions in the Cave” (Sura 18:7-26) is a retelling of a Christian folk legend, the “Seven Sleepers of Ephesus,” which first originated in Syriac sources after 250 AD. The original story tells of Christians who were persecuted under the well-known oppression of the Roman emperor Decius (the same persecution is well-known in Christian history for giving rise to the Novatianist schism). The story was featured in a poem by the poet, Jacob of Saruq, who lived in Edessa, a major center of Christian learning until it was conquered by Muslims in the first century AH. The story reappears in the Quran, edited to reflect a Muslim worldview.

Again, what’s more likely? That the Quran miraculously retold a Christian folk legend that was originally Muslim, or that author/s of the Quran had heard or read the story, and edited it to reflect a later Muslim worldview?

The Quran is chock-full of stories like this, taken from the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, plus Talmudic and other Rabbinical writings that were widely circulated in the Hijaz. The Christian branches of Azd tribe traded from Syriac-speaking Christian lands in the Levant down into the Hijaz, at least as far south as Medinah. Jewish Arabs were highly prevalent in Medinah.

The Quran never condemns the doctrine of the Trinity, at least in the word for “trinity” that was widely-circulated in Arabian. The Quran does include the phrase “say not three” (Sura 4:171), which could just as easily fit into the mouth the miaphysite Patriarch Jacob Baradaeus, who condemned the tritheism spread by Conon and Eugenius – two bishops of Selucia and Tarsus, respectively – that was prevalent in the Arabian peninsula.

To me, the most likely explanation for the history of Islam is that Muhammad was a dyophysite (Nestorian) Christian or possibly (as argued by Fred Donner) a pan-monotheist ecumenical reformer whose later followers misunderstood him after his death or reinterpreted him to fit their agenda.
 
As to the view of cultural conditioning, you’re right. However, it’s important to actually evaluate the available information in an objective manner, which I believe can be done. (As a Catholic, I believe in objective reality and objective truth).
If you truly want to be objective, then you must be willing to subject the Bible to the same critical evaluation that you are subjecting the Quran. (A truly objective individual like myself would find both texts leaving something very much to be desired.)

Criticisms of the Bible” vs. “Criticisms of the Quran
 
If you truly want to be objective, then you must be willing to subject the Bible to the same critical evaluation that you are subjecting the Quran. (A truly objective individual like myself would find both texts leaving something very much to be desired.)

Criticisms of the Bible” vs. “Criticisms of the Quran
I absolutely do. I read books by or listen to the whole range of Bible scholars, including Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, Dale Martin, John Meier, N.T. Wright, and the Jesus Seminar, just to name a few.

Let’s take Ehrman for example, a scholar who is a text critic and looks at Biblical manuscripts from different time periods to make arguments about doctrinal development in Christianity. While I don’t agree with many of his interpretations made in popular books he writes, I can’t dispute the facts that he presents in his textbooks or scholarly writings. For example, John 8:2-11’s story of the woman caught in adultery is in all likelihood NOT an original part of the Gospel of John. Actually, the online version of the US Conference of Catholic Bishop’s New American Bible says the same thing here. So when it comes to Biblical criticism, I say bring it! I actually do it myself, and read the Greek New Testament using an English-Greek dictionary and concordance.

I will mention what Daniel Wallace of the Dallas Theological Seminary has said: no early manuscript of a New Testament book ever found has resulted in a reading different from that contained in the full manuscripts that were written later. That’s not to say that there weren’t insertions in the text, or pseudoepigraphic works like 1 Timothy included in the New Testament canon. But the notion that the gospels, Paul’s epistles, the Catholic epistles, or Revelation were sculpted by later editors to reflect an orthodoxy that didn’t exist earlier is totally unsupported by the evidence!

The issue with studying the Bible vs. the Quran is that the Quran was intentionally edited to be homogeneous. Muslims claim this is because the caliph Uthman was worried that the text was being corrupted, and so he assembled a team of scholars to assemble an official version of the Quran that agreed with one kept by Muhammad’s family. Supposedly, all other copies were burned. With the exception of the Sana’a manuscript, which actually casts doubt on that story (in that the lower layer of the palimpset shows a Quranic text that differs from the “Uthmanic” version).

How do you do text criticism or redaction criticism on a document that has been intentionally edited to be homogeneous, the underlying stories and sayings assembled in a sequence that obfuscates the historical sequence of its development, and majority of early manuscripts of which Muslims themselves assert were burned? It’s awfully difficult!

However, it’s possible to look at the Quran using the lens of other types of historical criticism. That’s what I’ve done in the stories I’ve shown above, generally using methods akin to form criticism to show that the content of Quran itself is largely taken from pre-existing Jewish and Christian works. The trade routes into Makkah and the Jewish residents of Medinah provide a credible means of transmission of these works to the earliest Muslims, and the conquest of Christian and Jewish territories exposed the early Muslims to other writings. Notably, the Quran doesn’t sample from any literary or religous content that was prevalent outside the region conquered by the Rashidun caliphs, but lacking within that region.

The messiness of early New Testament manuscripts is a sign that the Church didn’t do what the Umma did. The Church respected older manuscripts. Even works deemed heretical by early Christians were cited by the “church fathers” in their writings. Prior to the discovery of the gnostic cache of documents at Nag Hammadi, scholars knew quite a bit about Christian gnosticism from the writings of St. Irenaeus and other early writers.
 
I am not supporting Mohammad revelation either. My question is that why God should incarnate himself to tell us the truth which a simple messenger could tell, then die on the cross, then resurrect himself, to clean us for the sins. You could say we cannot understand. I would say that how you could be sure that you know the truth unless you judge the truth meanwhile no understanding the truth. Does what I said make any sense?
Your last two sentences don’t make any sense. God sent his own son to demonstrate his deep love for us. True love is expressed better in person rather than through a messanger. Have you read the Old and New Testaments?

Wouldn’t your wife, girl friend, sister, or mother be more pleased if you told her in person that you loved her. Or would she rather you send a messanger to deliver that sentiment?

Linus2nd
 
My conscience is not telling my that Jesus is God incarnated.

Good. Then I will stay pat and not accept any religion because I don’t believe in any. That’s acting in good faith. And since I am only required to act in good faith, then that is what I will do. I sincerely believe in whatever it is I believe (and it is not possible for me to believe otherwise.)
Good faith involves more than that, though. Good faith involves genuinely loving and seeking the truth. And by truth we mean not just “something that is factually accurate” (though that’s an important kind of truth, of course) but what is good and beautiful as well. Do you long for truth, goodness, and beauty as you long for food and drink and sex? If you don’t, then your soul is in danger, no matter what you do or do not believe.

Certainly you should not accept any religion at this point. But I hope and pray that you will become the kind of person for whom “playing it safe” is an obscenity. Then I will not worry too much about where you end up.

Edwin
 
I am providing a real life example to illustrate a point;
No, you aren’t. Because it wasn’t a real-life example, as became clear very quickly. In real-life examples, there are specific circumstances that lead people into a “dilemma”–there isn’t just an abstract “dilemma.”
There is no more reason to believe in the authority of the Bible than there is to believe in the authority of the Qur’an.
The only reason you do so is because you have been culturally conditioned to do so. If you had been raised in a Muslim culture, then you more than likely believe in quranic view of Jesus, not the biblical view of Jesus.

It’s just silly to make claims about “the only reason” someone else believes something. You have no idea why I believe what I believe, and since I am a human being you have every reason to believe that I have more than one–probably several dozen–reasons for every important belief I hold. That’s how the human mind works. We aren’t robots.

And yes, of course culture and upbringing play an important role–and they should. It is the norm for people to remain faithful to the tradition in which they were raised. They should only abandon that tradition if they encounter overwhelming evidence indicating that they should do so. I have taken twenty years to make up my mind to become Catholic for that reason (and also because I’m a very indecisive, ADD kind of person!). But nonetheless, I am converting at long last, and many other people have converted to and from Catholicism and most other religions, including of course Islam. So your claim is just silly.

Edwin
 
You’re entirely missing the point. Jesus never claimed to be the one and only incarnation of God (which would have been blasphemous according to Jewish law).
And is blasphemous according to the Moslems.

Mark 2:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’ 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 ‘Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’
Mark is one of the earliest gospels, and probably the least distorted in its views (according to “scholars”). Who can forgive sins but the person to whom sins have been done, or God?

Or let’s try an earlier example than that: Paul’s first known letter, the first to the Thessalonians. biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205

Many times St. Paul makes references to God and to “the Lord” and “the Lord Jesus Christ”. But in Chapter Five he says:
9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him.
and
give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
and further still
May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
and finally
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Not that this proves Christ is God. But why should St. Paul speak of Him as being equal to God, and not mean such? This seems to be the implication of Paul’s words here, particularly v.10, 23, 27, etc.

So your claim seems to contradict the earliest claims of Christianity.
 
Your last two sentences don’t make any sense. God sent his own son to demonstrate his deep love for us.
It does make sense.
  1. We cannot understand the truth
  2. This means that we need revelation
  3. We accept revelation to be true
  4. We however cannot judge the revelation because (1) and (2)
  5. Judgment is crucial to differ truth from lie
  6. This means that we cannot claim that we know the truth but accept the revelation
  7. Revelation is useless since it is not informative because of (5) and (6)
In simple word, you need judgment to evaluate the trueness of scripture since otherwise you cannot understand it hence revelation is useless because by definition it claims that a carry a message which is not understandable.
True love is expressed better in person rather than through a messanger. Have you read the Old and New Testaments?
That only means that you accept God he is pleasant to you. Have you every thought the opposite?
 
It does make sense.
  1. We cannot understand the truth
  2. This means that we need revelation
  3. We accept revelation to be true
  4. We however cannot judge the revelation because (1) and (2)
  5. Judgment is crucial to differ truth from lie
  6. This means that we cannot claim that we know the truth but accept the revelation
  7. Revelation is useless since it is not informative because of (5) and (6)
In simple word, you need judgment to evaluate the trueness of scripture since otherwise you cannot understand it hence revelation is useless because by definition it claims that a carry a message which is not understandable.
Yes it takes judgment that is the job of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, whose truth in interpreting Revelation has been guaranteed by Christ. Doesn’t it make sense that God would want us to have an infallible guide. Without it we are like a herd of cats. Did you ever try to corral a herd of cats? That is a picture of the status of religion today, each man is his own source of authority- except for Catholics, who have a source of truth.
That only means that you accept God he is pleasant to you. Have you every thought the opposite?
Nope.

Linus2nd
 
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