The disorder of homosexuality

[CopticChristian]

Cancer is caused by mutations in a cell’s regulatory ability, such as in P-53. Cancerous cells lose the ability to regulate growth and start reproducing uncontrollably, forming a tumor. It is usually caused by environmental mutagens.

There are a variety of causes of diabetes. Although I have not exhaustively researched it, I have read that caesin in milk could cause an autoimmune response leading to some cases of type 1 diabetes. Obviously, the majority of type 2 diabetes are caused by poor diet. It could be the case that there are epigentic variables involved in those diseases.

Angelman syndrome is caused by a chromosome segment deletion, which may or may not be caused by epigenetic variables.

Epigenetics is a way to describe variation in Humans. I don’t see what would be the point of trying to stigmatize the effect of an epigenetic variations as necessarily pathogenic … oh wait, yes I do.

Is left-handedness a disease too?

Viv,

When I read Scientific articles…when I see “could”…“may”…then I am not reading articles that I can apply clinically. This is Scientific conjecture that only forms the basis of discussion and not practical for application. When articles say “is” and “can” then I know I am dealing with good stuff.

When I go to pubmed and search “epigenetics homosexual”…there is nothing…

Epigenetics is the note that the environment has an impact…and what I find is this…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3365389/

The role of epigenetics in the development and treatment of psychiatric disorders has been extensively reviewed (Tsankova et al. 2007) as well as general features of cognition and behavior (Graff and Mansuy 2008; Levenson and Sweatt 2005; Sweatt 2009). This includes age-related features such as the role of epigenetics in age-related long-term memory loss (DeAngelis and Tollefsbol 2010).
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22711291

Behavior has been reviewed and at this time I have not studied the above.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22622229

Then when I see this below and above I and you should realize that as it concerns the brain the studies require brain tissue…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22617563

SUMMARY:
Because of the difficulties in obtaining brain samples, epigenetic studies in eating disorders (like in other psychiatric illnesses) have used peripheral tissues, usually blood: this raises various problems. It is likely, therefore, that in the immediate future, animal, rather than human studies will guide the progress in epigenetics studies of eating disorders and other psychiatric disorders.

I can conclude that your notion of homosexuality and epigenetics does not have foundation based on the fact that brain tissue is necessary to complete the study and on the basis of eating disorder and other psychiatric illnesses it is difficult to do this.

I then conclude that as you propose your hypothesis, you are proposing that you have a disorder in the brain…are you OK with that?

 

[epan]

Why does that matter? If every trait has some genetic component is that proof that every trait is acceptable to act on?

I was responding to the argument that the “order” of the trait was somehow related to the likelihood of reproduction by a person who has it. There appears to be an “order” to it procreatively speaking, by its persistence in nature. My point is that the argument is specious as stated.

 

[CopticChristian]

I was responding to the argument that the “order” of the trait was somehow related to the likelihood of reproduction by a person who has it. There appears to be an “order” to it procreatively speaking, by its persistence in nature. My point is that the argument is specious as stated.

Epan,

In the courtroom when I testify as an expert…the defintion of an expert is this…Knowledge, Training and experience upon which an opinion is rendered…so let me ask you what do you base this opinion on?

 

[epan]

Epan,

So you say this based on your evaluation of “everywhere” that you either visited or read about, correct?

So the pheomenon is preserved by generation? What does that mean?

Then you say, for you this is the strongest genetic argument. You of course are a geneticist formulating this opinion, Correct?

If, you propose is conjecture, or are you also a Social Anthropologist?

By your own arguments, a person may not have an opinion unless they would qualify as a legal expert. Therefore, please provide me your credentials in each of the areas which you have an opinion. If you don’t, then by your own standards you may only sit and listen.

But seriously, why the silly questions? Are you being sincere, or just combative?

We all know that homosexuality is a fact of life in every culture that we know of. Can you provide an example which contradicts my statement?

 

[epan]

Epan,

In the courtroom when I testify as an expert…the defintion of an expert is this…Knowledge, Training and experience upon which an opinion is rendered…so let me ask you what do you base this opinion on?

Knowledge, or course. We all base our opinions on the knowledge which we possess. Or, do you do something other than that?

I am not sure what you are asking me. If you are hoping for my resume, I don’t feel obliged to offer it up. If you are just trying to say that you disagree with me, fine. We disagree. If you are trying to discredit me for some reason, why?

My opinion stands on the face of the observation. Homosexuality is present in all societies and cultures which we know of. It is in the bible, it is in historic records, it is in archeological records.

 

[CopticChristian]

By your own arguments, a person may not have an opinion unless they would qualify as a legal expert. Therefore, please provide me your credentials in each of the areas which you have an opinion. If you don’t, then by your own standards you may only sit and listen.

But seriously, why the silly questions? Are you being sincere, or just combative?

We all know that homosexuality is a fact of life in every culture that we know of. Can you provide an example which contradicts my statement?

Epan,

My opinions are based in fact that I provide. Yours are based in what? I am sincere. When someone generalizes, I see that as a problem.

You may or may not know that the Meta-Model of the mind as seen in NLP/Neurosemantics points out that the filters that we all have include “deletions, generalizations, distortions”…do a search for “NLP, filters, generalization” and see what you find…

When I see “all”…“many”…then I know I am dealing with a generalization and a lower order of thought and I challenge anyone that thinks like that…OK…

Filters operate at a lower order of formed thought.

The Meta model demonstrates that to get at the root of thought you have to chunk down by asking questions and that is what I do when I see information that has no basis other than “well that is what I think”…Ok then tell me how is it and where did that thought come from?

 

[epan]

Epan,

My opinions are based in fact that I provide. Yours are based in what? I am sincere. When someone generalizes, I see that as a problem.

You may or may not know that the Meta-Model of the mind as seen in NLP/Neurosemantics points out that the filters that we all have include “deletions, generalizations, distortions”…do a search for “NLP, filters, generalization” and see what you find…

When I see “all”…“many”…then I know I am dealing with a generalization and a lower order of thought and I challenge anyone that thinks like that…OK…

Filters operate at a lower order of formed thought.

The Meta model demonstrates that to get at the root of thought you have to chunk down by asking questions and that is what I do when I see information that has no basis other than “well that is what I think”…Ok then tell me how is it and where did that thought come from?

Admittedly, “everywhere”, etc, was a generalization. I revise that to all that I know of.

Now, since you rely on facts. Provide one, please. Which culture do you know of, which we have enough information to infer sexual practices, in which homosexuality does not exist?

It is a simple point, which does not require references to NLP, Filters or Meta Models. Please stop throwing dirt into the air, and spinning around in circles. Provide one of these “facts” which you rely on, but which you have not yet produced in several posts which claim to be responsive.

 

[CopticChristian]

Admittedly, “everywhere”, etc, was a generalization. I revise that to all that I know of.

Now, since you rely on facts. Provide one, please. Which culture do you know of, which we have enough information to infer sexual practices, in which homosexuality does not exist.

It is a simple point, which does not require references to NLP, Filters or Meta Models. Please stop throwing dirt into the air, and spinning around in circles. Provide one of these “facts” which you rely on, but which you have not yet produced in several posts which claim to be responsive.

Epan,

This was not my thought. This was your thought. You have a notion as to cultures and homosexuality. My reference is this…Homosexuality exists. Here is a 2000 year old statement that agrees with you.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

  24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

  26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

  28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; **32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.**

and Paul points out not only do they do them, but approve…and want me to accept…so what is the point of homosexuality being in every culture…I would like to know…cause this teaching is 2000 years old and John Wesley would probably agree…

What is your point?

 

[LisaA]

By your own arguments, a person may not have an opinion unless they would qualify as a legal expert. Therefore, please provide me your credentials in each of the areas which you have an opinion. If you don’t, then by your own standards you may only sit and listen.

But seriously, why the silly questions? Are you being sincere, or just combative?

We all know that homosexuality is a fact of life in every culture that we know of. Can you provide an example which contradicts my statement?

Epan that is not relevant. Murder exists in every culture too. Religion exists in every culture. So what? Yes it means that homosexuality is part of the human condition. We don’t know what causes some to be attracted to their own sex any more than we know what makes a seemingly normal woman decide to drown her children in a bathtub.(And before the shrieks and howls NO I am not equating homosexual sex with murder) We don’t know what makes people engage in rituals but rituals seem to be part of every culture. There are lots of different behaviors that seem to spring from nowhere. So what?

I think the objection to the absolute determination on the part of homosexual apologists to make homosexuality “normal” colors their entire agenda. No one who’s read the Constitution thinks they should not have the same rights as everyone else. But what I and I think many object to is trying to make Jack and Jill equivalent to Jack and Fred. It’s not and never will be. Whether you look at homosexual relations from a biological, a theological or even a cultural perspective you cannot make them so.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Wow, finally caught up! What an interesting thread!

So the topic is “the disorder of homosexuality.” It has been explained that the Church’s position in using the term “disorder” is not the psychological use of the word. However, both approaches have been discussed.

When the Church calls homosexuality a disorder, it is in a metaphysical sense. According to the Church, Humans are meant to pair-bond in heterosexual relationships and to reproduce. Fair enough. The success of the Church over the years makes it clear that some policies produce effective reproductive strategies for the population. Banning homosexual relations might be an element of those successful reproductive strategies. I think there is room for some debate there.

Either way, I agree with the idea that the Church is not likely to change it’s views on homosexuality any time soon. It might be worth debating about, but supporters of “gay liberation” should of course be realistic with respect to the Church.

Perhaps a more important focus for gay folks is to ask for charity and compassion for their condition? I say that because I believe I have seen a lot of hatred expressed towards gays, in the general public, and yes, on this forum. I know, I know, hatred isn’t allowed here and nobody sees any hatred going on, only the Truth. Well, call it something other than hatred if you like, but I have certainly seen too much prejudice and false assumptions and outright anger directed towards people who appear to support the dreaded “gay agenda.” Reducing prejudice and reminding our fellows to be charitable towards gays seems like a reasonable and realistic position, doesn’t it?

OK V, I will take you at your word and thank you for reading the posts and getting up date on the discussion. When other posters jump in after twenty pages and ask the same questions that have been asked and answered reapeatedly, I conclude they are only interested in the “battle” as one poster termed it.

With respect to the above I assume you haven’t read the Church’s teaching on homosexuality which above all focuses on CHARITY AND COMPASSION. If you’ve seen hatred toward homosexuals for having the challenge of same sex attraction then that person is not exhibiting charity or compassion.

OTOH what you might interpret as “hate” is an objection to having homosexuals literally shove their sexual practices down our unwilling throats. FWIW I have the exact same response to heterosexuals who shove their sexual practices down our unwilling throats although quite honestly this is not making the news. It’s not a hatred toward homosexuals (and I know it’s probably a cliche but I do have several close and dear friends who are homosexual) but to their determination to be “out” and try to make us believe their relationship is the equivalent to a man woman marriage.

Fix posted a link to an interesting editorial and I could say “my sentiments exactly.” Do I want homosexuals back in the closet? YES! And that goes for heterosexuals too. One’s sexual practices are among the most private of behaviors. I do not think sexual activities are for public fodder.

I asked Tsk and some of the other homosexual apologists to PLEASE explain why homosexuals self identify as such as literally the be all and end all of their universe. I cannot imagine a heterosexual demanding that his/her sex life be included in textbooks. Do we really care about Martha and George Washington’s sex life? Is it relevant? Would a heterosexual mayor stand up and as literally the first words out of his mouth be “I am the first mayor who openly reports on my shoe fetish!” Why must there be “Gay Pride” events? Do you think we should have “Cross Dressers Pride” events? Or “Sex Toy Appreciation Day”? I mean EWWWWW who wants to know all this? I don’t.

So regardless of your perspective can you understand what is being objected to?

Lisa

 

[epan]

Epan,

This was not my thought. This was your thought. You have a notion as to cultures and homosexuality. My reference is this…Homosexuality exists. Here is a 2000 year old statement that agrees with you.

and Paul points out not only do they do them, but approve…and want me to accept…so what is the point of homosexuality being in every culture…I would like to know…cause this teaching is 2000 years old and John Wesley would probably agree…

What is your point?

I think we are kind of beating a dead horse here. Three non responsive posts in a row. I have stated my point twice.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Homosexuality is present in all societies and cultures which we know of. It is in the bible, it is in historic records, it is in archeological records.

So is adultery. So is incest. So is polygamy. And none of those, either, promote the common good (and some are illegal). So while we don’t imprison or persecute people for all lifestyles which do not promote the common good, neither do we specifically and formally encourage those through institutions which approve such lifestyles and which fail to differentiate what does and does not promote the common good.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think we are kind of beating a dead horse here. Three non responsive posts in a row. I have stated my point twice.

Epan,

I have gone back and read almost 1/2 of your postings and see that in reporter style you propose a let it happen, so what attitude, promoting SSM, homosexuality and other issues that speak of someone that is left of Center. Your point is understood.

 

[ReapReason]

I mean EWWWWW who wants to know all this? I don’t.

Lisa

Right or wrong, your attitude is very immature and your debating style drowns any cogent thing you have to say.

 

[LisaA]

Right are wrong, your attitude is very immature and your debating style drowns any cogent thing you have to say.

Right are wrong? Isn’t that contradictory? Perhaps missing some element of proper grammar as well?

Maybe you would like to exhibit some maturity and focus on the argument instead of sharing your opinions of “style.”

Lisa

 

[ReapReason]

Maybe you would like to exhibit some maturity and focus on the argument instead of sharing your opinions of “style.”

Lisa

I was exhibiting maturity, and its for your own good. Its Christians like you that push the gay community further away from the supposed truth of the Catholic Church. Perhaps if you could put yourself in their shoes, you would exercise caution and sensitivity in the way you talk about this issue.

Spouting out “ewwwww” like a child licking a sour lolly, is not going to earn you any respect in this debate.

 

[LisaA]

I was exhibiting maturity, and its for your own good. Its Christians like you that push the gay community further away from the supposed truth of the Catholic Church. Perhaps if you could put yourself in their shoes, you would exercise caution and sensitivity in the way you talk about this issue.

Well you definitely exhibit complete assurance in your own opinions. I am not sure that is a sign of maturity though.

BTW did you bother to actually read the post where I said I feel exactly the same way about heterosexuals who make their private lives a cause celebre? I wonder if you would actually address the topic and if you think you must chide me, make it a private note since the Mods will send you a notice for your lack of charity.

BTW what is your religion? I’ve never heard of it.

Lisa

 

[fix]

I was exhibiting maturity, and its for your own good. Its Christians like you that push the gay community further away from the supposed truth of the Catholic Church. Perhaps if you could put yourself in their shoes, you would exercise caution and sensitivity in the way you talk about this issue.

Spouting out “ewwwww” like a child licking a sour lolly, is not going to earn you any respect in this debate.

How about the reverse for a change? Have those that continually argue for the agenda ever stopped and said maybe we should be less sensitive? Drop the persecution complex? See how shouting hate at every turn is off putting? Just a thought.

 

[ReapReason]

How about the reverse for a change? Have those that continually argue for the agenda ever stopped and said maybe we should be less sensitive? Drop the persecution complex? See how shouting hate at every turn is off putting? Just a thought.

I am not the one being called a fascist; I am not the one that looks backwards in the eyes of secular society. Many Christians are feeding the flames of the propaganda that is being used against them by being arrogant and self righteous. You don’t seem to realise that you are a sinner just like gay people; you are no more worthy of heaven than gay people. No sinner deserves heaven. Your goal is to save peoples souls, and you are not going to do that by going “eewwwwwww!!!”

 

[fix]

I am not the one being called a fascist; I am not the one that looks backwards in the eyes of secular society. Many Christians are feeding the flames of the propaganda that is being used against them by being arrogant and self righteous.

Uh huh. So, standing with the Church is arrogant and self righteous?

You don’t seem to realise that you are a sinner just like gay people; you are no more worthy of heaven than gay people.

When did I, or any other poster, claim otherwise?

No sinner deserves heaven. Your goal is to save peoples souls, and you are not going to do that by going “eewwwwwww!!!”

I cannot save any soul. That is not my authority. I hope and pray that souls will be saved.

We are not talking about individual encounters here, but rather are debating the whys of Church teaching and the affects on society.

Times and circumstances help dictate responses. As I pointed out the real problem is that no matter the tone, no matter the words, no matter what, every defense of morality is to be called a name like hate or lacking charity, and much else. Perhaps the propaganda needs to be set aside, but that will not happen. Do you know why?