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fix
Guest
I posted that because it expresses how many people feel. The debate is too often controlled by those pushing that agenda. They want to shut down any opposing voice.
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tskrobacz
Guest
Sorry…one last post on this topic. A quote from a favorite spiritual director:
A true spirituality necessarily is going to be involved with the issues of the world, with the issues of society, of the poor, of politics. When you cut off the human issues, the issues of suffering and society, in fact, you have cut off the soul. Human issues hold the key to your own shadow, what you are afraid of, what you deny, and what you hate. The marginalized, those of other races, religions, ideologies, and gender usually hold a gift for us. That’s why homosexuality is threatening to people. In many ways it is the last taboo.
In the homosexual person we have the image of the masculine and the feminine put together in one person. That’s why we are terribly afraid of gays and lesbians. They are the image of what we all need to integrate, the contrasexual. We’ve all got to put the masculine and feminine together within ourselves. We are so terrified by that wholeness, that those that represent it are hated in most cultures based on domination and patriarchy.
Interestingly, more holistic cultures such as Native Americans and Asiatics have no taboo against the homosexual. These cultures recognize more easily the mystery and paradox of all things human.
A true spirituality necessarily is going to be involved with the issues of the world, with the issues of society, of the poor, of politics. When you cut off the human issues, the issues of suffering and society, in fact, you have cut off the soul. Human issues hold the key to your own shadow, what you are afraid of, what you deny, and what you hate. The marginalized, those of other races, religions, ideologies, and gender usually hold a gift for us. That’s why homosexuality is threatening to people. In many ways it is the last taboo.
In the homosexual person we have the image of the masculine and the feminine put together in one person. That’s why we are terribly afraid of gays and lesbians. They are the image of what we all need to integrate, the contrasexual. We’ve all got to put the masculine and feminine together within ourselves. We are so terrified by that wholeness, that those that represent it are hated in most cultures based on domination and patriarchy.
Interestingly, more holistic cultures such as Native Americans and Asiatics have no taboo against the homosexual. These cultures recognize more easily the mystery and paradox of all things human.
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Viviphilia
Guest
Hi CopticChristian,
You quoted this question of mine twice, but I don’t see any response to it:
“Is left-handedness a disease too?”
Would you mind humoring me with a response since I believe this is an important question? A short answer or a long one will do. I’m basically trying to figure out if we share the idea that there is natural variation in Humans which is not considered disease or disorder or pathology.
With respect to your last question, if you’re going to pathologize all epigenetic variation then it would follow that everyone has some disorder in their brain. According to Mr. Rogers, “every person that you see is somewhat different from every other person in the world.”
Thanks,
-V
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LisaA
Guest
Fix responded to your question. Perhaps you didn’t notice. The idea that left handedness is a disease is a non-starter. It has no dimension or characteristic of a disease. It might be a the result of a brain difference. My understanding is that the side of the brain that is the most dominent results in the person being “handed” on the opposite side. I also understand that like twins and red hair, left handedness runs in families.
Left handedness is what I’d call a characteristic or a preference rather like taste. Some people immediately like certain foods, others immediately dislike them. Some people are born with an inability to taste certain things. I love Cilantro. Apparently to some people it tastes like soap. I don’t understand this but I accept it as just one of those things that make everyone unique. I absolutely hate, loathe and despise asparagus. The smell of it makes me start retching…I am not kidding. Others think it is a delicacy. I’ve been this way since I was a small child. My parents and sister love asparagus. Am I diseased?
You seem to have good support and a strong background for your other questions but frankly this one sounds rather silly.
Lisa
PS I’m left handed too…maybe we all hate asparagus?
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Viviphilia
Guest
I sympathize with your position. You are clearly offended by homosexuality and you want homosexuals to stop offending you by “going back in the closet.” I am also offended by some of the behavior of some of the members of the gay liberation movement. You have a fair criticism, but you’re making a false dichotomy. The side you represent is not the only side with a problem.
See, the problem from the other side of the aisle which you want to “go back in the closet,” is that those people are sick of being condemned for the way they were born. They are sick of being hated because of something which they believe is out of their control. They are offended when their basic desires are described as “perverse” or “sinful” or “deviant” even though you might believe those adjectives to be true. Since many homosexuals are offended by that attitude, some of them feel the need to be offensive in return. I disagree with that approach, but I do sympathize with their side of the issue, just as I sympathize with your side of the issue.
My own position is that I would like to see both sides calm down and try to respectfully agree to disagree.
Would you care to explain your position? From our modern perspective, we can look back and laugh at how left-handed people were once mistrusted, right?. And most of us right-handers tend to ignore how difficult many things can be for left-handed folks. I think it’s safe to say that in the past, left-handedness was often thought of as a pathology. Today, we tend to think of left-handedness as a mere variation. I wonder if maybe homosexuality and left-handedness have more in common than either of us realize?
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LisaA
Guest
Although you have responded to Fix, this is the same question/observation I’ve made several times on this thread and have yet to get a response.
I’ve bolded the statement that I think MAKES our point. That being IF homosexuals kept their private lives private, they would NOT be criticized, “condemned” accused of being perverts or whatever form the objection takes.
Why must we hear about someone’s personal and intimate sexual activities? Why does a homosexual self identify as such in the initial contact? This is such an unimportant characteristic about a human being…what they do with their sexual organs. The only other person who should have the slightest interest is the person with whom they are engaged in the sexual activity.
Why are there “Gay Pride Parades?” Why is a particular sexual activity a) public or b) something to be promoted?
Why must certain historical characters be identified as homosexuals in children’s textbooks (this is a law in California…where else?)
Why do homosexuals seek out businesses they presume to be “gay unfriendly” make a big issue that they ARE homosexuals, demand services and then sue when the business owner refuses to provide these services (I do not mean a lunch counter I mean a small private B&B, a wedding photographer and a psychiatrist).
I hope you read Fix’s link because while I don’t have the same personal reaction when I meet a homosexual, I feel the same way about the overt public demonstrations.
Why can’t we agree that one’s sex life does not need to be public fodder? That one’s sex life should not be a cause celebre?
I have never advocated any kind of persecution or exclusion of homosexuals. Catholic teaching does not advocate any kind of persecution. But as Fix’s editorial noted, this should not be an issue because no one needs to know about ANYONE’S sex life other than our own.
Lisa
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Viviphilia
Guest
Hi Lisa,
Please forgive me for saying so, but I’m a little disappointed with your response to my posts. I was hoping that since you take an interest in biology and have mentioned biological principles several times in this thread, that we might continue that line of discussion. Oh well. If you change your mind, I promise to try and be gentle!
One of the common behaviors I interpret as hateful is the frequent stating of false assumptions about me, as if I were just another faceless, generic, anonymous member of the dreaded “gay agenda.” It appears to me that a lot of people do not care to know me as an individual and instead prefer to condemn me as “perverse,” based on one facet of my identity. I don’t mean to put those words in your mouth or in the mouths of all Catholics. I have received several messages of sympathy and tolerance since joining this forum and I do not believe that all Catholics think alike. But there are certain behaviors here that appear quite common and I believe they often reflect an “intense dislike” of sex-gender variants. And I do believe that some are not even aware of what they are doing.
I’m not sure why you assumed that I haven’t read the Church’s teachings on homosexuality, which do indeed promote charity and compassion. If you reexamine my message, you should see that it is addressed more to the members of the dreaded “gay agenda,” and not necessarily to Catholics. I was suggesting to activists that rather than focusing on trying to change the Church’s ancient teachings, they should be more realistic and focus on reducing hatred by reminding Catholics of the Church’s teachings of charity and compassion towards homosexuals. So you can see now that I have indeed read the Church’s teachings on homosexuality, although I am certainly no expert on those teachings. Why didn’t you see that before? Is it because you lumped me in with others who you are opposed to?
Just one other point, when you say “literally” it means “actually, without exaggeration.” So if someone was “literally” shoving something down your throat, I would advise you to “literally” call the police.
Hope we can talk again!
- V
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LisaA
Guest
Here is one of your initial posts and the reason I concluded you hadn’t read the Catechism. Basically it said to me that you believe the emphasis in Catholic teaching is on the sinful aspects of homosexual acts. However as I noted, it specifically calls for charity and compassion. So if homosexuals ask for charity and compassion, they are completely supported by the Church’s teaching on the subject. It sounded as if you were here to school Catholics in the proper attitude.
Perhaps a more important focus for gay folks is to ask for charity and compassion for their condition? I say that because I believe I have seen a lot of hatred expressed towards gays, in the general public, and yes, on this forum. I know, I know, hatred isn’t allowed here and nobody sees any hatred going on, only the Truth.** Well, call it something other than hatred if you like, but I have certainly seen too much prejudice and false assumptions and outright anger directed towards people who appear to support the dreaded “gay agenda.” Reducing prejudice and reminding our fellows to be charitable towards gays seems like a reasonable and realistic position, doesn’t it? **
The ‘hatred’ you cite and that people consider you a nameless faceless member of the dreaded gay agenda also assumes you know their minds and thoughts. Tsk claims people are afraid of gays. Yet another grand assumption. I think we both make assumptions based on our own perspective and by what little we know about the other posters. I often look at the public profile trying to get an understanding of perspective but there is rarely any information.
Also realize that all we know of you is what you tell us. Anyone who’s been on internet forums knows that you can be anyone you want to be. The only thing we can respond to is your posts. Not a well rounded understanding but limited by the particular media. I don’t even know if you are male or female although I suspect male just by your writing style. I don’t know if you are gay or straight although it seems most of the homosexual apologists are homosexuals. But truly neither know nor care. As I have said repeatedly, much of the dispute about homosexuals could disappear if we had a DADT attitude toward all but those who truly have a need to know.
As to the biological aspects, I was put off by your comment regarding Jesus. It said to me you are unaware that Jesus was fully human and fully God. IOW He would not be subject to the same constraints of our humanity. He did not sin.
As to the survival of the individual vis a vis survival of the species, perhaps it’s a chicken or egg argument. Basic biology would indicate that behavior or activities that compromise the life of the species or the life of the individual of the species is by definition abnormal. I haven’t seen any evidence that homosexual behavior is not subject to the laws of nature or the constraints of biology.
Again would you or someone address my premise that the reason homosexuals engender all of the hostility that you and others claim exists, is that they insist on TMI?
You may assume (there we go again) that because of my position on the subject that I have any animosity toward homosexuals in general or have no homosexual friends. On that you would be wrong.
Lisa
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Viviphilia
Guest
I asked CopticChristian, not fix. I let posters speak for themselves, since we are all individuals with different ways of looking at things.
Left handedness is a variation, not a disease, not a disorder, and not a deviance. It’s just how some people are.
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LisaA
Guest
Sure but this is an open forum and hopefully you would be as interested in Fix’s comments as in CC’s comments. If you just wanted a back and forth with CC, there is a private message feature.
Happy to hear you do not think I’m diseased.
Lisa the Lefty (Handed)
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Viviphilia
Guest
Since I have never been to one, nor had any desire to go, I’m not sure. It could be that they want to have some fun.
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Viviphilia
Guest
Catholics frequently remind other Catholics to be charitable. As a supporter of the principle of philosophical charity, I frequently remind others to be charitable.
I have only my interpretation of the behavior of others, which is why I have refrained from making direct accusations. I have limited my generalizations to a sub-population, not necessarily all of Catholics, and I have tried to be clear that I am not accusing all Catholics of being hateful. Am I not permitted to my interpretation when I have clearly tried to be fair and charitable?
I have not shared my sexual orientation on this forum. I personally agree with trying to keep such matters private. However, that isn’t always possible. It isn’t really fair to ask a persecuted group who are seeking acceptance to shut up and go away. It’s nice that you are tolerant towards homosexual people (as long as they remain in the closet), but you must admit that in reality there still exists a great deal of hatred towards them. How can they fight against that hatred by staying in the closet?
In an earlier post to fix, I thought I made it clear that I am also offended by some of the behavior of some of the members of the dreaded “gay agenda.” Not all homosexuals are guilty of sharing too much information. Yet your statement appears to generalize the entire homosexual community.
So He was fully Human, yet He was not subject to the same constraints of Humanity? Are you contradicting yourself? Wasn’t Christ tempted?
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, Viv, Christ was tempted, but he had no inclination to sin, which is the constraint of the human person.
Jesus’ temptation limns the method in which the Son of God is Messiah. Jesus vanquished the Tempter for humanity: “For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sinning.”–Hebrews 4:16
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PRmerger
Guest
This is a trenchant point, Viv.
I think that if every homosexual followed in the model of Christ and embraced chastity and a life of agape, no one would ever have a word of complaint about them.
(Also, please note as Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, and in the Godhead co-eternal with the Father, the Creator, Jesus “procreates” quite a bit–right now to the tune of 7 billion. It is peculiar, then, to posit that Jesus “failed to procreate”.)
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LisaA
Guest
I feel like I’m talking in circles and that you keep making my point but don’t really answer from the other side of things.
How can homosexuals fight “hatred” if they stay in the closet? Does it make sense to you that if they stay “in the closet” that no one other than those with whom they wish to share their private lives would even KNOW they are homosexual and thus have an opportunity to persecute or demean them? In no way do I support or agree with anyone who bullies or persecutes someone. But in a lot of ways it’s almost like homosexuals try to “pick a fight.” I remember in the early days of coming out that homosexuals would en masse “We’re here, we’re queer, what are ya gonna do about it?” Well honestly…nothing just don’t shove your agenda in my face.
I get very frustrated when homosexuals equate their struggle with that of blacks. While there is some dispute about sexual orientation being a characteristic of birth there is no question that a black person is born black, stays black and dies black. A black person’s race is (usually) apparent by their outward appearance. OTOH no one actually knows a person’s sexual orientation unless the person shares that information. Since I have a lot of experience with homosexuals I feel I can usually identify them upon some kind of personal interaction. But I suspect most people neither notice or care.
It’s only when the agenda is in our face so to speak that we react. Further often the agenda goes beyond basic human rights and makes demands for accommodation that IMO is too much (i.e. text books, gay pride parades, day of silence in schools, heather has two mommies, and same sex “marriage,” forcing businesses to provide services in opposition to their religious commitment etc)
I truly do not understand what needs to be “out of the closet.” Why do we have to know about anyone else’s sexual practices? Why do homosexuals claim their sexual orientation ahead of all other characteristics?
DADT sounds pretty much a win win. Tell me why I’m wrong here?
Lisa
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CopticChristian
Guest
Gosh Viv,
Give a Coptic a break here…it’s not like I walk around all day with a computer…whew…
Handedness and epigenetics is what you are after. Is Left Handedness a disease?
I believe that every left handed individual could be diseased. Those left handed so and so’s should just pack up their Sinister limbs, sinister as you recall is latin for left…
I recall the Latin Gallic Wars…Gallia est en sinistra ripa…or something like that…
Put those suckers on an island…before you know it they will be putting steering wheels on the right side of the car…wait, they do that in Australia and Europe…then wait…wait a minute…did I discover a sinister conspiracy…
Why do we have our steering wheels on the left side of our car…it’s those left handed folks you know…but…wait I am getting off track…
No, left handedness is not a disease and there is no proof that you can say so from epigenitcs…or there would not be this book…
symposium.cshlp.org/content/69/499.refs
Hope that helped bring some…
:extrahappy:
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RobbyS
Guest
I was listening to some Karen Carpenter songs, thought of her tragic end, and it occured to me that homosexuality and her affliction are alike in that 1) anorexia nervosa was a matter of compulsion and 2) he could not bring herself to face what she was doing to herself, starving herself to death. Have always thought of homosexuals as neurotics, with a distorted view of reality. It must be torture for those who know this but can do nothing about it.
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RobbyS
Guest
I agree. To make a big leap, I am somehow reminded of the new Obama biography, and how a white man with African features decides to re-invent himself, to turn himself into an African-American. Many gays do consciously decide to chose one path rather than another, and they are the most political ones.
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stewstew03
Guest
The “gay agenda” is a desperate attempt to normalize an abnormal characteristic. If the majority observes large numbers of gay men/women (e.g., parade) or portrayals of the gay lifestyle in popular media (e.g., tv and/or books), then an illusion begins to form such that “gayness” is just as normal as “straightness.”
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stewstew03
Guest
:clapping:Gosh Viv,
Give a Coptic a break here…it’s not like I walk around all day with a computer…whew…
Handedness and epigenetics is what you are after. Is Left Handedness a disease?
I believe that every left handed individual could be diseased. Those left handed so and so’s should just pack up their Sinister limbs, sinister as you recall is latin for left…
I recall the Latin Gallic Wars…Gallia est en sinistra ripa…or something like that…
Put those suckers on an island…before you know it they will be putting steering wheels on the right side of the car…wait, they do that in Australia and Europe…then wait…wait a minute…did I discover a sinister conspiracy…
Why do we have our steering wheels on the left side of our car…it’s those left handed folks you know…but…wait I am getting off track…
No, left handedness is not a disease and there is no proof that you can say so from epigenitcs…or there would not be this book…
symposium.cshlp.org/content/69/499.refs
Hope that helped bring some…
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