The disorder of homosexuality

[ReapReason]

Of course theologians have been wrong before. Galileo was excommunicated

Galileo was excommunicated?

wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Galileo_excommunicated

"*When Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) attempted to promote the heliocentric theory (that the earth moves around the sun) in the seventeenth century, he was tried by the Inquisition in Rome and found “vehemently suspect of heresy”. The sentence imposed did not include excommunication, but he was required to “abjure, curse and detest” those opinions and was placed under house arrest for the term of his life.

Only in 1965 did the Catholic Church revoke its condemnation of Galileo.*"

Of course there is always the possibility that you are wrong.

 

[Jimmygill88]

Galileo was excommunicated?

wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Galileo_excommunicated

"When Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) attempted to promote the heliocentric theory (that the earth moves around the sun) in the seventeenth century, he was tried by the Inquisition in Rome and found “vehemently suspect of heresy”. The sentence imposed did not include excommunication, but he was required to “abjure, curse and detest” those opinions and was placed under house arrest for the term of his life.

Only in 1965 did the Catholic Church revoke its condemnation of Galileo."

Of course there is always the possibility that you are wrong.

I am wrong but he seems to have been forced to recant his ‘heretical’ theory that the earth orbited around the sun. Indeed I remember Pope John Paul apologising for the churches mistaken stance. Mistakes like the Pope forcing the ‘perfidious jews’ to live in the Roman Ghetto until the late 19th century. YThe church DOES make mistakes (something we share) and she is willing to admit them you cannot defend the indefensible

 

[CopticChristian]

No kidding, Jimmygill88. Thanks. Visiting some of the threads that have to do with sex, marriage, dating, and masturbation are deeply disturbing. Fear, guilt, and loathing appear to be rampant there, just like God wants.

Gabe,

Which ones are most disturbing

Sex
Marriage
Dating
Masturbation

Fear, Guilt and Loathing are a problem and that is why when you read Veritiatis Splendor your learn that true Freedom is freedom from fear.

Sounds like you have a handle on things.

 

[davidv]

So tell us, why is the OHACAC relevant to your view?

It teaches truth.

How did it userp the position of your ability to gather information and calculate?

It didn’t. Invalid assumption and question.

How did you learn about the OHACAC?

In public and in private.

Were your teachers about the OHACAC absolutely and completely reliable?

Most of the time. We also have the documented teaching to check them against.

Theirs, Down the line, with no adjustments, additions, deletions, misinterpretations, mistranslations, deviations in intention or meaning, reasoning of Divine premises accurately understood by means of human intellect, cultural norms applcable in nuance and colloquialism, semantics, experiential competency in hig mysticism, etc, etc, etc all the way back? How do you account for Jesus’ teaching fitting the non dualist model as well?

How is this relavent. According the great statistian George Box, “All models are wrong, some are useful”

Are you sure that the shenanigans of the third century didn’t in the least bit color things?

Sure as I am sure of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

the additions, deletions, and closed canon of the Bible, is that ans its interpretation absolutely inerrantly so in the hands of men, given that even the purest message from the other side has yet to be filtered by a mind chock full of bronze age and earlier paradigms?

Unfounded speculation.

Where do you yourself fit in here, other than as a sheeple?

How else would we fit in? Jesus is the Good Shepherd.

I myself think that the Church very well has a body of Teaching that can lead one to an experience of Truth. The Saints, certain ones much more than others, point to that clearly. But on here, CC, I get far more of a feeling of unexamined rah rah for our team than any results of sincere inquiry and the resultant insights.

I may be way wrong, but that is what I get. And I get that from the legalistic approach of quoting lines and verses of doctrine, most usually supporting what comes off to me as an emotional investment, not a clear functioning of the Love that birthed our Faith. It’s all intellections and extrapolations covering up origins and lawyered up as “proofs”’ of what God has to say about something that Jesus never mentioned.

Sorry, I think y’all protest too much.

Likewise.

 

[HeHasRisen]

I find it completely amazing how a subject like homosexuality being right or wrong can yield such inconsiderate and outrageous replies. Here is the BOTTOM LINE… The Catholic Faith and teachings from Jesus Christ HIMSELF is to LOVE they neighbor as Thyself! Every person who follows this is both heterosexual and homosexual! Those words are based on desire of LOVE for a person NOT sex! How one chooses to indulge their sexuality when it comes to the act of sex itself is completely THEIR choice, and something THEY have to settle with their OWN conscience! It is not for you or anyone else to decide what someone does behind their bedroom door is morally right or wrong! That is not your right as a person who is showing Christ-like LOVE for another human being! Jesus himself would never turn his back on a person because of who they engaged in a sexual act with! It is you and I who will choose to turn our back on Him!!! And as quick as you are to say the gay guy and the lesbian are wrong or “disordered” or sick in the head, you are placing judgment on another human being which IN FACT is NOY MORALLY RIGHT! So for ONCE I would love to see the gay and lesbian right or wrong discussion left alone and discuss more important and pressing issues… Like the government trying to dictate birth control! Or the Homeless and Hungry in your towns, or disaster relief in our country, or visiting and educating the sick or in prisoned! Those and MANY MANY more issues are of much more concern that who is doing what in their own home and if it is right or wrong! Come ON Catholics!!!

 

[Holly3278]

I personally believe that homosexuality is a mental illness. The American Psychiatry Association or whatever it is called would have agreed with me before the 1970s when they were pressured by homosexual activists to remove it from the list of mental illnesses. My opinion is that it most definitely is a mental illness and it should be treated like other mental illnesses. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any effective treatments for homosexuality. Perhaps therapists could at least help them to be chaste but that’s not about to happen in this secular world, at least not with most therapists.

 

[CrusaderNJ]

please give me some advice…i’m good friends with an atheist, we’ve known each other our whole lives. He comes from a VERY messed up household and his parents are atheists not to mention alcoholics and bad parents. I went to his house yesterday and his dad and sister were talking about how happy they are that obamacare had passed and now abortions will be available to everyone on insurance. I felt rage and anger building up. Next the priest comments started and how the church is patriarchal and does nothing for anybody. Again, starting getting angrier. Me and my friend NEVER talk about religion because we known we can’t convince the other and it would ruin our friendship, so its never discussed. My question is, how to stop myself from getting so heated when i know wholeheartedly that i’m right and what their saying is COMPLETELY immoral and wrong. Its one of the worst feelings to know that you are right and the person you are arguing with thinks that they are and you can’t even try to reason with them. any advice would be appreciated.

 

[ReapReason]

I am wrong but he seems to have been forced to recant his ‘heretical’ theory that the earth orbited around the sun. Indeed I remember Pope John Paul apologising for the churches mistaken stance. Mistakes like the Pope forcing the ‘perfidious jews’ to live in the Roman Ghetto until the late 19th century. YThe church DOES make mistakes (something we share) and she is willing to admit them you cannot defend the indefensible

Perhaps you think that being wrong is the default position of the Church. The Church isn’t always wrong, and so It really is a worthless point to make. If the rejection of homosexuality was based purely on blind tradition; then you might have a point. But you seem to be sold on the idea that any challenge against homosexuality is necessarily prejudice and uneducated. The fact of the matter is, there are good reason for the Churches stance on sexuality in general. Its not simply a rejection of homosexuality; it is a rejection of any sexual behaviour that does not express the value of being a man or a woman and a human-being in general.

 

[Hadrianus]

I have been a Catholic all my life (50 years) and I am afraid to say that it is an unpalatable truth that nothing gets us as worked up as any subject involving matters '‘south of the waistline’ (for those of us still lucky enough to have one). Deeply immature

Yes, I must say that when I first discovered Catholic Answers I found it somewhat interesting. But the endless obsession with sex is, quite frankly, not very edifying. All cultures of course, have sexual tensions caused by the fallen human condition, but in America it seems to be a fixation. How much of this was caused by Irish catholicsim and how much by protestant fundamentalism I don’t know. But my guess is that the two together melded into the peculiar state of affairs we have today.

It is an ironic reality that the words “liberal” and “conservative” now hold mostly sexual connotations.

 

[ringil]

No kidding, Jimmygill88. Thanks. Visiting some of the threads that have to do with sex, marriage, dating, and masturbation are deeply disturbing. Fear, guilt, and loathing appear to be rampant there, just like God wants.

Well, please know that CAF presents are very different view of the Church from that experienced IRL.

I am frankly shocked about some of the views and ideas expressed around here. I suspect our bishops and even Pope would be as well.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, please know that CAF presents are very different view of the Church from that experienced IRL.

I am frankly shocked about some of the views and ideas expressed around here. I suspect our bishops and even Pope would be as well.

Ringil,

Thank you for pointing out the dicrepancies you see…to set the record straight, here it is right ouf of the Catechism…

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. **Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. **2358

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Wow, what does it take to know that the Church sees Homosexuality as intrinsically disordered and the inclination is objectively disordered…spread the word:thumbsup:

 

[CopticChristian]

I find it completely amazing how a subject like homosexuality being right or wrong can yield such inconsiderate and outrageous replies. Here is the BOTTOM LINE… The Catholic Faith and teachings from Jesus Christ HIMSELF is to LOVE they neighbor as Thyself! Every person who follows this is both heterosexual and homosexual! Those words are based on desire of LOVE for a person NOT sex! How one chooses to indulge their sexuality when it comes to the act of sex itself is completely THEIR choice, and something THEY have to settle with their OWN conscience! It is not for you or anyone else to decide what someone does behind their bedroom door is morally right or wrong! That is not your right as a person who is showing Christ-like LOVE for another human being! Jesus himself would never turn his back on a person because of who they engaged in a sexual act with! It is you and I who will choose to turn our back on Him!!! And as quick as you are to say the gay guy and the lesbian are wrong or “disordered” or sick in the head, you are placing judgment on another human being which IN FACT is NOY MORALLY RIGHT! So for ONCE I would love to see the gay and lesbian right or wrong discussion left alone and discuss more important and pressing issues… Like the government trying to dictate birth control! Or the Homeless and Hungry in your towns, or disaster relief in our country, or visiting and educating the sick or in prisoned! Those and MANY MANY more issues are of much more concern that who is doing what in their own home and if it is right or wrong! Come ON Catholics!!!

I posted what the Catechism says for you to see…so lets get with the teaching of the Catechism…OK:thumbsup:

 

[CopticChristian]

please give me some advice**…i’m good friends with an atheist, **we’ve known each other our whole lives. He comes from a VERY messed up household and his parents are atheists not to mention alcoholics and bad parents. I went to his house yesterday and his dad and sister were talking about how happy they are that obamacare had passed and now abortions will be available to everyone on insurance. I felt rage and anger building up. Next the priest comments started and how the church is patriarchal and does nothing for anybody. Again, starting getting angrier. Me and my friend NEVER talk about religion because we known we can’t convince the other and it would ruin our friendship, so its never discussed. My question is, how to stop myself from getting so heated when i know wholeheartedly that i’m right and what their saying is COMPLETELY immoral and wrong. Its one of the worst feelings to know that you are right and the person you are arguing with thinks that they are and you can’t even try to reason with them. any advice would be appreciated.

Crusader,

You may want to see if you can communicate with “The True Centrist” on this one, however unless the issue you seek advice with is concerning the disorder of homosexuality, you posted in the wrong thread.

 

[CopticChristian]

Perhaps you think that being wrong is the default position of the Church. The Church isn’t always wrong, and so It really is a worthless point to make. If the rejection of homosexuality was based purely on blind tradition; then you might have a point. But you seem to be sold on the idea that any challenge against homosexuality is necessarily prejudice and uneducated. The fact of the matter is, there are good reason for the Churches stance on sexuality in general. Its not simply a rejection of homosexuality; it is a rejection of any sexual behaviour that does not express the value of being a man or a woman and a human-being in general.

Reap,

The Church does not error when it comes to Faith and Morals.

 

[ReapReason]

Reap,

The Church does not error when it comes to Faith and Morals.

I understand that this is what you are required to believe by faith. Personally, I don’t know this to be true, and cannot honestly say that this is my faith; that’s why I don’t have Catholic as my religion, even though I am baptised. But what I can say is that as far as I can discern I tend to find good rational reasons that supports much of the Churches moral teaching; that is to say, I rationally agree with most if not all of it.

 

[CopticChristian]

I understand that this is what you are required to believe by faith. Personally, I don’t know this to be true, and cannot honestly say that this is my faith; that’s why I don’t have Catholic as my religion, even though I am baptised. But what I can say is that as far as I can discern I tend to find good rational reasons that supports much of the Churches moral teaching; that is to say, I rationally agree with most if not all of it.

Reap,

Then as a Baptized Catholic Christian I acknowledge that you have the gifts of Faith/Hope/Charity. You may want to read Fides et Ratio. Faith and Reason. You have both.

 

[ReapReason]

Reap,

Then as a Baptized Catholic Christian I acknowledge that you have the gifts of Faith/Hope/Charity

I don’t understand what you mean.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t understand what you mean.

Reap,

This I understand.

 

[fix]

I’m a bit worried about the assertion that Theologians don’t know definitively what ‘causes’ homosexuality but just in case it’s a matter of choice or free will they class it as disordered and sexual activity as a mortal sin. Of course theologians have been wrong before. Galileo was excommunicated for saying the earth went round the sun, limbo has (at long last) been put to bed as non existent. I think charity should dictate that we should allow ourselves to be open to the nature/nurture hypothesis. There does seem to be an amount of personal distaste for gay people exhibited among the correspondents, and prurient and unhelpful links drawn between peodeophiles and homosexuals. As we know the vast majority of that vile practice takes place in the home, and as for the catholic church in that particular degraded arena ‘people who live in glass houses should not throw stones’

You might want to study Church history and some moral theology before making these statements.

 

[fix]

I am wrong but he seems to have been forced to recant his ‘heretical’ theory that the earth orbited around the sun. Indeed I remember Pope John Paul apologising for the churches mistaken stance. Mistakes like the Pope forcing the ‘perfidious jews’ to live in the Roman Ghetto until the late 19th century. YThe church DOES make mistakes (something we share) and she is willing to admit them you cannot defend the indefensible

Again please read Church history before asserting what you do here.