The downside to adoption

[teachccd]

I am trying so hard to be charitable here but it’s not easy. Those who adopt are listed on the birth certificate as the parents be **they are the parents. **
I am truly sorry you have abandonment issues but just because you do doesn’t mean that every child who is adopted does.

If I hadn’t been placed for adoption I’m almost certain I would have never lived past my first year. I have very complicated heart problems. My older, more experienced, and financially set parents could get me the best possible medical care available. A single, young mother (which is what my bio-mom was) could not have gotten me that kind of care.

My parents love me the same as if I shared their genetics. My sister is not biologically related to me -it makes no difference what so ever.

If anyone is passing around cliches it’s you. You act as if those that adopted children aren’t the parents of the children,that they second class babysitters or something. Which is a load of you know what. It’s a cliche to think all or even most adopted children are mal-adjusted or feel abandoned.

The only people I know personally that suffer from issues are two women I know that were legally adopted and raised by their grandmothers. These were the ones that grew up knowing who their bio-mom was and watched her go on an live her own life “abandoning” them as children -making an appearance every so often. Those I know with closed adoptions are all sucessful, happy, well adjusted people.

So please don’t pretend you know what every adopted child feels because you don’t -not by a long shot.

My wife and you can share the same story. She is also adopted and has an adopted sister. My wife was born with a hole in her heart and also needed extreme medical care. And I KNOW that my wife would agree completely with EVERYTHING that you stated in all of your posts. I can bet my life on that and I’ve been married to her for almost 27 years and I thank God everyday that her MOTHER and FATHER took her and raised her into the most blessed and beautiful woman that she is today.

Let all of those out there speak from the sides of their heads. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever because, like you, I know that adoption is equally as gracious and as much of a gift as natural birth. Sometimes even more since you were definitely “wanted” and chosen. And I always include my wife’s biological mother in my prayers for her virtuous decision to choose life and then make the right decision to give her up.

Your last statement in your post is very valid. People seem to think that their opinions merit some sort of validity. You and my wife ARE adopted and NO ONE can tell you how bad you had it because you didn’t. PERIOD.

Thank you and God Bless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

"As I just explained to Agapewolfe, I have been researching this issue for mote than thee decades. I have read all the research. I have published two books on the subject - both are fully footnoted and documented.

Published two books…Fully footnoted and documented…

Well, sorry all of you adopted folks out there. If your experiences don’t mirror these books, I guess your living a dream…

 

[teachccd]

Raynee89,

As you speak of your wedding, I assume you are not a minor, yet you start out by identifying yourself as an adopted “child.”

You are an adult, who was adopted as a child.

The language of adoption - like the laws - keep those adopted infanticized. Many of those adopted are also made to feel “grateful” and “disloyal” for even thinking about their family of origins. It is sad that doing a geneological search is seen as different for adoptees than non-adoptees. But then adoptees are treated "differently’ in many regards.

Your statements are absolutely nonsense. She is an adopted child as is my wife. You …oh never mind. Why would I lower myself to your level of ignorance. And I’m making an obsevrvation not insulting you. You are ignorant of the experiences of adopted children when you speak as if what they say doesn’t matter and my wife knows so too…Thirty years research?? Yea O.K.

I hope that I remained as charitable as I could because I feel like :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Didi]

No matter what the situation, there are good sides and challenging sides. That’s life!

What I haven’t heard mentioned in this thread (and I didn’t read every post completely, so forgive me if it has been mentioned) is the role of God in making families.

As the mother of two adopted children, I believe with all my heart that they were meant to be our children before they were conceived! And my children know this. We thank God every night that He made us a family. We met their birthmothers when they were babies and we have pictures of them and we pray for their birthmoms. Without their choice, and cooperation with God’s will, we wouldn’t be a family.

What makes a family? People who are committed to one another for life and who love each other. People who mirror the Holy Family – Jesus, Mary and Joseph (who, by the way, is Jesus’ “adopted” father on earth!). Hey, if it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for my family!

 

[seekerz]

This is a personal issue and it’s natural for different opinions to exist. To me it’s always sad when a parent has to give up a child for adoption even though this may be in the interest of all concerned. While I don’t completely agree, I do understand those who believe that teenagers can’t be good moms. I’ve known several very good teenage moms (with varying degrees of family support), so to me it’s more a matter of level of maturity ( believe it or not, some teens are capable of mature thought ) and individual circumstances.

I have this theory that there exists a unique, intangible bond between a mother and her child which should be broken only for grave reason (such as drug addiction, terminal or serious mental disease). In other situations, if it were up to me, I’d provide a single/struggling mom with all the support (even be a godparent if I had to) necessary to raise her gift from God herself.

 

[rayne89]

Didi definitely God has a hand in making my family -actually in a very concrete way. My young, unmarried bio-mom went to her parish priest when she found she was pregnant for help. He sent to another state to live with his parents until I was born and was adopted by my parents. His parents even bought me my first layette set.

 

[rayne89]

This is a personal issue and it’s natural for different opinions to exist. To me it’s always sad when a parent has to give up a child for adoption even though this may be in the interest of all concerned. While I don’t completely agree, I do understand those who believe that teenagers can’t be good moms. I’ve known several very good teenage moms (with varying degrees of family support), so to me it’s more a matter of level of maturity ( believe it or not, some teens are capable of mature thought ) and individual circumstances.

I have this theory that there exists a unique, intangible bond between a mother and her child which should be broken only for grave reason (such as drug addiction, terminal or serious mental disease). In other situations, if it were up to me, I’d provide a single/struggling mom with all the support (even be a godparent if I had to) necessary to raise her gift from God herself.

My best friend was a teen mom, married the father and now they have three children.She was a great mom even at 17. Now her oldest is a teen mom, and a very good one despite the challenges. My husband and I are godparents to the child. Teens can be good parents when they chose too.

You have to remember not all teenagers want to be parents as shown by the rash of teenage girls recently delivering their babies in secret and then killing them.

Your theory is nice but doesn’t play out in real life, sometimes yes but not always. Especially in this day and age those that chose adoption aren’t forced to. The stigma of single parenthood is gone. But some women aren’t ready or willing to be mothers when they find themselves pregnant. Sadly many of those children never get a chance to be born. For those brave women who chose life adoption is very much the answer.

I have another friend I made when my hubby was in the Navy, she was a teen mom, married and things turn out well. Her sister in law lived next door to me and she was a teen mom as well, by that time was in her early twenties with a second child. I used to baby sit her two young boys. Those boys are now teenagers and have grown to be juvenile delinquints, expelled from schools, violent problems - because this woman could never get her life together and never gave those boys any stabilty -moving around, changing men, sometimes dumping them off with their bio-dad then showing up again a while later.
I think about those beautiful sweet boys and how their lives could have been different if they had been placed in a stable family. We can romanticize about the mother/child bond but the sad reality sometimes biological mothers can’t or won’t be “mothers” to their children.

 

[aurora77]

Thank you Linnyo, Rayne, Dan-Man, TeachCCD for your inspiring testimonies. Chovy, thanks for posting that quote so that it can be discussed.

 

[davia]

This is a personal issue and it’s natural for different opinions to exist. To me it’s always sad when a parent has to give up a child for adoption even though this may be in the interest of all concerned. While I don’t completely agree, I do understand those who believe that teenagers can’t be good moms. I’ve known several very good teenage moms (with varying degrees of family support), so to me it’s more a matter of level of maturity ( believe it or not, some teens are capable of mature thought ) and individual circumstances.

I have this theory that there exists a unique, intangible bond between a mother and her child which should be broken only for grave reason (such as drug addiction, terminal or serious mental disease). In other situations, if it were up to me, I’d provide a single/struggling mom with all the support (even be a godparent if I had to) necessary to raise her gift from God herself.

Amen Seekerz- I have to 100% completely agree with you and you said it much better than I had

I want to make a few observations based on what I have read above. I agree that for most children, adoption is such a great thing. But, it is true that most parents seem to want an infant and personally I think it is gravely unfair to the millions of children and teens in foster care hoping for a family to call their own. They are shuffled from home to home until they are 18 and then go out on their own without a family to call their own. How sad. Instead of international adoption, we should get our children in the American foster care system adopted to good families, or at least into foster care homes that can love and support them permanently or until their families are well enough to take them in. Many adoptive parents have love they want to share with a child, but it seems that child has to be an infant to earn that love - older children and teens don’t seem “worthy” to most. If they were, the foster care system wouldn’t be as it is today.

"Those boys are now teenagers and have grown to be juvenile delinquints, expelled from schools, violent problems - because this woman could never get her life together and never gave those boys any stabilty -moving around, changing men, sometimes dumping them off with their bio-dad then showing up again a while later. "

I see your point, but adoptive parents do not always raise the best kids either or do the best job. It’s not really a fair assumption.

I agree the church is not listening when it comes to this subject and they really should preach and appeal to their congregations to be foster parents and take in children that need help. Also, it would be nice if there was some sort of organization set aside within the church to help mothers that wish to keep their baby, but feel they can’t for financial reasons (such as money donated or God parents willing to help keep mother and child together). I completely agree with you, if a mother loves her child and wants to take care of it but is financially unable to, she can be a good parent still and I am sure the child will not regret it’s mother being able to love and take care of it with the help of some very generous catholic God parents who help keep them together. As I said, many women abort unfortunately because they say well, I can’t raise it on my own financialy and I can’t bear to give up my child, “abortion is my only option” Maybe this would be different if they had more help available. They are very connected issues.

I also completely understand where adoptees are coming from. As I can see so many of you love (as you should) your adoptive parents as your own - they are. What strikes me a little though is how birth parents are kind of thrown to the side when it’s said there is no connection or this and that. Birth parents also love their children and it is the greatest sacrafice for most when they give up their children. I don’t imagine they would feel that good if they heard they weren’t important or loved in that person’s life after the sacrafice they chose. Imagine, if you as a parents had no choice but to give up your precious child only to have them say “thanks, but you’re not important in my life really. These other people are my real parents”. Yes, they can be prayed for, but to say there’s no connection is a little cold IMO when they loved you so much that they gave you up -that is the hardest thing in the world to do and it’s because of the tremendous love they have for their child. Most birth parents dont’ give up their kids because they didn’t want them. It’s because of their love that they do. :hug1:

 

[rayne89]

I also completely understand where adoptees are coming from. As I can see so many of you love (as you should) your adoptive parents as your own - they are. What strikes me a little though is how birth parents are kind of thrown to the side when it’s said there is no connection or this and that. Birth parents also love their children and it is the greatest sacrafice for most when they give up their children. I don’t imagine they would feel that good if they heard they weren’t important or loved in that person’s life after the sacrafice they chose. Imagine, if you as a parents had no choice but to give up your precious child only to have them say “thanks, but you’re not important in my life really. These other people are my real parents”. Yes, they can be prayed for, but to say there’s no connection is a little cold IMO when they loved you so much that they gave you up -that is the hardest thing in the world to do and it’s because of the tremendous love they have for their child. Most birth parents dont’ give up their kids because they didn’t want them. It’s because of their love that they do. :hug1:

I am very greatful my bio-mom gave me life, and gave me a chance at a normal family life. I really don’t think it’s fair to tell people how they should feel. The parents that raised me are my real parents. I think for a woman who gave her child up for adoption to think otherwise is completely unfair. Why should she think she is important in my life when she’s never been there? I am sure it was a very hard choice, it was also the right thing to do.
My mother that raised me is the one that got up with me at night when I was sick, lived through the nightmare of being told I would die when I seven months, slept sitting up in chair with me in her arms so that I wouldn’t choke on my own mucus as a baby, put on a brave face when I was wheeled away to have open heart surgery when I was 8 years old. My parents are the ones that drove me 700 miles from home in order to have the best doctors to care for me. My mom who is less than 5 feet tall carried me as a kindergartener to the front door of my school in a foot of snow so my pants wouldn’t be wet all day because she was afraid I might get sick something I couldn’t afford with my heart condition.
We had our struggles, my family is far from perfect but they are my family.

This is a backward example of what AdoptAuthor was getting at -telling adopted children (or adults adopted as children ) how they am supposed to feel. I am cold because my bio-mom isn’t important to me. I need to be told my mother loved me so much she gave me up and I should feel that she is important to me because of that.

I realize you have the best of intentions but my family is the one that raised me. I don’t live my life as an “adopted” person. I am a person that* happens* to be adopted and other than not sharing genetics they are my parents in every way. How bizarre is it that I am cold because a person who is a complete stanger to me and someone I’ve never met is not important to me?

Are complete stangers important in your life?

 

[agapewolf]

I thank God a lot for my birth parents and for their courage. I’m sure it was hard, but just as rayne said, they are strangers. I’m not minimizing the emotionaly pain they went trhough, but they are not my parents.

As I said before, I’ve met my birth parents. There is absolutely no connection. They are strangers. People seem to be putting so much creedence into blood relation like it makes some kind of inner “connection” or something. I tell you it does not.

I’ve had a couple people through my life ask me the most ridiculous question “whats it like to be adopted”. um…hmmm…“What’s it like NOT to be adopted?”

 

[davia]

I get what you are both saying, but we may just have to agree to disagree. Yes, your parents got up with you in the night and too you to school, but to me, handing over my son to someone else would be a trillion times harder (and I doubt any birth mother no matter if they chose to adopt or keep feel their children are strangers are you describe your birth mother). Not all parents are drug addicts or just plain don’t want their children (for some it’s the worst think they will ever live through). As it was said by both of you, we shouldn’t generalize, so while you may not have a connection, the woman who bore you and had to hand you over may (and those feelings to matter). I doubt all birth parents say “ho hum, oh well we don’t really have a connection, so it’s okay”. They say it was the hardest thing they every did. That’s why more parents are looking for “open adoptions” - they can’t bear being out of their child’s life and if they could change things they would be the one who gets up with them in the night. Thanks for listening to my opinion. I may not be in your shoes, but I can see it from the other side too. And like I said, I don’t mean any disrespect.

 

[Newbie2]

I have been researching, writing and speaking about adoption issues for more than thirty years. My comlete bio is on my website at AdvocatePublication.com.

The statement that I made is a paraphrase of the opinion of the united Nations and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child which states that adoption should always be a last resort.

Oh, yes. The UN.

When one states “always”, my blanket-statement radar goes off.

Hope someone else does your editing.

Raynee89,

The language of adoption - like the laws - keep those adopted infanticized. Many of those adopted are also made to feel “grateful” and “disloyal” for even thinking about their family of origins. It is sad that doing a geneological search is seen as different for adoptees than non-adoptees. But then adoptees are treated "differently’ in many regards.

Blanket statement, again.

Why shouldn’t women keep their own children. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn’t trust a stranger. Many adoptive parents fall short as well.

Many do. And good for you if you were in that situation and decided to keep your baby. There are many reasons why certain women in certain situations wouldn’t keep their own children…first one being unmarried and unplanned pregnancy, I would think.

There are a bunch of feelings posted here. There is a bunch of books quoted here. There is nothing from the Church, no Catechism, no Scripture. The Church runs adoption services, you would think there would be some teaching in the Church about adoption.

The fact that there is not real teaching from the Church on this, and many other issues, convinces me that the American Church is not doing a good job. It is not guided by the Holy Ghost.

Sure enough, there are laws concerning adoption. Laws concern the interests of the society, not the individual. That we, in a Christian land, have to look to the law is another reason why the Church does not listen to the Holy Spirit. The Church should have standards that provide the basis for law, not vice-versa.

Just like anything, adoption does get abused. So does sex. As Catholics we need to fix the abuses and embrace adoption. We need to make adoption clearly the best choice.

What the Church needs to do is come out and say the following:

1. Don’t get pregnant unless you are prepared to raise and love a baby. It is called being responsible.
2. If you have a baby, don’t get an abortion, give up the child. Don’t keep the child, give it up to the Church. You pretty much demonstrated you were not responsible by getting pregnant. You are not going to start by having a baby.
3. If you want to adopt have a happy marriage. Be good Catholics. Adopt through the Church. Oh, this means the Church needs to somehow know that its members are being good parents, doesn’t it? Why is that a bad thing? Shouldn’t that be happening now?

The Church does pretty much say 1,2 and 3. Good advice.

Published two books…Fully footnoted and documented…

Well, sorry all of you adopted folks out there. If your experiences don’t mirror these books, I guess your living a dream…

Yeah, no doubt. It’s amazing how smart and authoritative writing a book makes a person.

 

[gmarie21]

“I strongly and totally disagree with your arguments here. Done properly, the adopted child wins. I am speaking from experiece. My story is a few posts up. I consider your statements to be rather sweeping.”

LINNYO: I am very glad for you or anyone who has a good experience with adoption - as MANY do! Hwever, judging all adoption on your personal experience is far more sweeping. I know people who have happy marriages for 50 - 60 years…till death do they part. Does that make all marriage successful and erase the 50% who divorce? Does it make it nay less painful for those - including the chidlren - who suffer when marriages fail?

As I just explained to Agapewolfe, I have been researching this issue for mote than thee decades. I have read all the research. I have published two books on the subject - both are fully footnoted and documented.

well, none of those researchers seemed to have contacted to interview those adoptees on these forums (myself included). I sought out my biological family because I thought I had a lump in my breast (dr. had ordered an ultrasound) at the age of 20 and since my family (adopted) have a high rate of breast cancer in their 20s I wanted to know if I too was facing similar genetics. My mom was more emotional and happy about meeting my biological mother than I was. I was kindof indifferent. While, I have always been grateful for my biological mother’s sacrifice, my mom is the one who raised me.

Like other adoptees on this board, I have known many adoptees throughout my years and not a single one expressed their desire to be raised by anyone else besides their parents. While some hoped to one day meet their biological parents, most only desired to meet them for medical information and out of curiosity.

I do believe that adoption is very hard on a biological parent (fathers count too). I think that counseling and support groups should be attended by biological parents to help them in their grieving.

 

[gmarie21]

I hardly think about being adopted. In fact I sometimes forget in conversation. When my daughter was little and she was a ball of energy and a big night owl-I said to my uncle she must have got it from my mom because she didn’t get from me or my husband, forgetting that my mom and I are not biologically related.

this reminds me of when my daughter was born. My great aunts came to the hospital that night (along with my mom, step-dad, and some cousins) and my godmother looked at my daughter and said that she looked exactly like her son when he was born, that she looked so much like my mom’s Italian side of the family. My one cousin said (ignorant of Catholic teaching), “what? by Immaculate conception?” My family tends to forget about my being adopted because I AM a member of the family, not some outsider they took pity on. Also, when I met my biological family almost all of my aunts and uncles and cousins came over to meet them too to also say “thank you” for the sacrifice they made and allowing me to be loved by them. And unlike biological children, I have two big celebrations each year, my birthday and my adoption day. To me adoption has never seemed like a “second best” option. I guess that’s why I always wanted to adopt as my first choice (even though things did not turn out that way).

 

[leonie]

I wish my sister would allowed her son to be adopted by a two parent family.

He was reared by her, in series two husbands (neither the bio-dad), his grandparents, and all of us aunts and uncles as supports. But, he never knew stability. His mom never went to bat for him in the school system for his learning disabilities. His religious ed was haphazard as well as his church attendance.

Now, he’s a struggling young adult–an atheist, working minimum wage jobs. He can’t read. He has an unwed baby of his own with whom he has minimal contact.

How different his life would have been with a two mature, loving, married parents.

There’s suffering in adoption, but I think the suffering growing up in an unwed home is greater.

 

[rayne89]

I get what you are both saying, but we may just have to agree to disagree. Yes, your parents got up with you in the night and too you to school, but to me, handing over my son to someone else would be a trillion times harder (and I doubt any birth mother no matter if they chose to adopt or keep feel their children are strangers are you describe your birth mother). Not all parents are drug addicts or just plain don’t want their children (for some it’s the worst think they will ever live through). As it was said by both of you, we shouldn’t generalize, so while you may not have a connection, the woman who bore you and had to hand you over may (and those feelings to matter). I doubt all birth parents say “ho hum, oh well we don’t really have a connection, so it’s okay”. They say it was the hardest thing they every did. That’s why more parents are looking for “open adoptions” - they can’t bear being out of their child’s life and if they could change things they would be the one who gets up with them in the night. Thanks for listening to my opinion. I may not be in your shoes, but I can see it from the other side too. And like I said, I don’t mean any disrespect.

Davia I think you are putting your ideas about how things should be and making it reality -it is not. Years back I watched a special on adoptees searching for their parents. One woman spent years and years searching for her birth mom when she finally found her, in another country, she flew there and knocked on her door. After she introduced herself the woman told her not come back and shut the door in her face. Another case it was a man searching, he met with his biological family and it was a kind of awkward, weird, nice meeting you kind of thing. Even the ones that were positive after checking back some time later all but one had kind of dwindled into a non-relationship after the initial emotion wore off.
The most positve connections were those of siblings and half siblings, not the birth parents.

I’m sure some birth mom’s are heart broken and grieving but the reality is many are not.

A friend of mine who was adopted by her grandparents had her birthmom come to her at the age of 13 and ask her to live with her. After this woman difted in and out of her life she was so excited that her “mom” wanted her. The grandparents let her go.

Literally 24 hours after moving in with her bio-mom she realized what she was there for, to babysit her young half sibling so her mom could go out and party, get drunk and bring men home to her bed. She was abused by her bio-mom and several different men her mother brought into their life. And when her bio-mom found a man to marry she dumped her off at her bio-dad’s who then sexually abused her.

My other friend who was also raised by her grandma had her bio-mom drift in and out of her life, making promises she rarely kept only having time for her when it was convient for her.
My friend went on to have a baby as a teenager as well. She married at 17, cooked, cleaned, cared for her daughter, attended a special school for teen mom’s in order to graduate and is a wonderful mom, who would sacrifice anything and everything for her children. Not everyone is the same.

You think it’s a trillion times harder to give up your child because you love and want your child, you want to be a mom. I’m a mom too and I can’t imagine giving my child up. I can’t imagine aborting my child either but women do it all the time.

I agree open adoption are for the bio-parents. I worked with a young woman years back, she was 19 at the time and had two children by different guys both placed in open adoptions. She actually kept the first child for about 6 months but it was “too much work for her” “she never had anytime for herself”. The second she gave up at birth. She carried pictures of them which she proudly showed me, claimed them as her children, had play dates with them, but none of the real work that real parents do. She gets to claim the title of mom when she does nothing but show up when she feels like to play for a couple hours? If she really deeply loved these children she would let them have a normal family life apart from her, but she couldn’t do that because that would be “too hard” for her.

You have an ideal about how all women who give birth should be, it’s very sweet, but life doesn’t always work that way. Reality is often far from the ideal.

I know you mean no disrespect. I think you have this wonderful Hallmark idea of motherhood that doesn’t always play out in real life. For those birth mom’s who live with broken hearts my prayers are with them. If my bio-mom is one of those women than I pray God gives her healing but I can’t have feelings for a stranger and just because I’m adopted does not mean I have to have feelings for someone who has never been a part of my life.

So we disagree. God Bless.

 

[lovesMary]

People want infants for more than one reason. First, babies are adorable. Part of the joy of parenting is starting with a new baby and watching it grow. Babies are just so cute! They don’t have a lot of complex psychogical issues. God made babies easy to bond with.

Older children aren’t as cute. If they have been abused or neglected that can be very challenging. Not everyone is up to the task of being a parent to one of these kids. They can have multiple severe behaviour problems that would be beyond the ability of the average person. Most people would want to start from scratch and give a baby security right from the start. Parenting is hard enough without having to deal with a psychologically damaged child.

I don’t see anything wrong with parents prefering a healthy infant. That’s understandable and they should be NOT condemned for it.

 

[deb1]

Some people mistakenly believe that if a mother loves her children that she must be a good person to rear those kids. This is why you always hear the relatives and friends of mothers who murder their children say, 'Well, she was a good mom." What they mean is that she expressed love for her children.

I know that my mother loved me. But she was unstable and abusive. There seems to be this misconception that mother love can make up for abuse and mistreatment or that a mother who really loves her child won’t be cruel. That isn’t true. As I said before, I have no doubt my mom loved me.

It would have been much better if I had been adopted to a loving, stable family. Kids need stability almost as much as love.

Family members have said, “But your mom loved you so much.” That is their excuse for ignorning the fact that my mom was a terrible mother.

Good parenting skills are important. Being the biological mother doesn’t automatically give a person the ability to parent.

I really, really wish that I had been adopted. It is sad to come to a point in your life when you realize that you can’t allow your own mother around your kids because she is too destructive.

 

[lovesMary]

By the same token, adoptive parents are not universally good parents, even if they had to jump through hoops to get a baby. Sometimes I see adoptive parents held up on some sort of pedestal in some quarters. Part of that is classist and sometime even racist. Working class people are looked down on by social workers, and college educated people held in high esteem.