The Dress Code for the Vatican - Should it be Universal?

[Allegra]

Problem with having enforcers of any sort is that it can too easily turn into a fascistic and dogmatic insistence on some list of rules with harsh punishment for the slightest deviance, often based on completely arbitrary reasoning. What is considered a short sleeve to you might not be my idea of a short sleeve.

Those pictures are pretty specific. However, I can see your point. I think the bigger problem would be that what is considered a short sleeve on a buxom, attractive, 20-something, might not be what is considered a short sleeve of a plump, short 50-something. That’s why I would be against the clothing police. The signs are enough to make those who give a care…well…give a care.

 

[Christopher68]

Quote from cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/06/dress-code-for-vatican-should-it-be.html :

**The Dress Code for the Vatican - Should it be Universal? **
Posted by Dr. Taylor Marshall

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wHtHSIOeF...AB5I/xx_ldzmrA64/s1600/Vatican+dress+code.jpg

Below is the modesty Dress Code enforced for entry into Saint Peter’s Basilica.

The dress code forbids:

hats for lay men inside the basilica
shorts/skirts above the knees
sleeveless shirts
shirts exposing the navel
shirts for women that expose cleavage
shirts which contain profanity
excessive jewelry
The use of mobile phones is also prohibited, as is smoking.

In my lowly layman’s opinion, this same dress code should be printed out and posted on the door of every Catholic Church on earth…the immodest clothing displayed on Sunday mornings is over the limit.

The sad thing is that people (especially mothers) used to have a cultured sense of decency. Nowadays this has been lost so that grown men and women see nothing wrong with entering a church half clad. The solution is not to judge and shame others but to bring about a re-education on what is modest and appropriate.

I appreciate your balanced and carefully weighed thoughts on this matter.

PS: Our Lady’s words at Fatima in 1917: “Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son.”

Folks, please see also discussion and opinions at cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/06/dress-code-for-vatican-should-it-be.html .

No shorts above the knees? Doesn’t it get quite hot in Rome in the summer months? I would suggest that this particular dress code is inappropriate.

 

[EasterJoy]

No shorts above the knees? Doesn’t it get quite hot in Rome in the summer months? I would suggest that this particular dress code is inappropriate.

Did it used to get hot in Palestine?

The kaftan of Sengal is not short, and most of the traditional formal garments of Africa are long, too. The traditional clothing of Indonesia also has sleeves and covers the knees. It is not hotter in Rome than in those places.

If the cut and choice of fabric are appropriate, clothing that covers the knees and shoulders is not insufferably hot, particularly if one is not working or in direct sunlight. Human beings have found this to be true through thousands of years before the invention of air-conditioning.

 

[maryjk]

I have a question for you: Who enforces the hour of fasting prior to Holy Communion? Who enforces the precept that the faithful are to contribute to the support of the Church? Who enforces the rule that those in grave sin may not receive Holy Communion?

No one, in fact, I often see people eating and drinking right before they walk into Mass. The big difference is that unless you see them chomping down on something, you would have no idea that they have just eaten.

Same with people contributing to the Church. No one enforces their support. But again, when you sit next to someone in Mass, you have no idea if they give or what they give.

Could you tell just from sitting next to me, the last time I was at Confession? Do we print the date somewhere so everyone knows?

To say that a rule could not be introduced because some kind of oppressive police would be necessary to enforce it does not make any sense. The Church mostly operates on the honor system, and has the habit of giving guidance to those who actually care, not to mention those who are bound only by the expansive concept that anything not explicitly forbidden must be not only permissible but unquestionably acceptable, if not just as laudatory as what anyone else does. Those who don’t care will keep doing what they like…just as they always have! How would that be any different than what we have now?

So why post it at all? If you know it won’t change what people wear, why bother spending the time and money to print it at all?

If we operate on the honor system, then allow those that feel that a skirt that falls an inch above the knee is too short to not wear one. And those that see an inch above the knee as not a big deal, to wear it.

 

[EasterJoy]

No one, in fact, I often see people eating and drinking right before they walk into Mass. The big difference is that unless you see them chomping down on something, you would have no idea that they have just eaten.

Same with people contributing to the Church. No one enforces their support. But again, when you sit next to someone in Mass, you have no idea if they give or what they give.

Could you tell just from sitting next to me, the last time I was at Confession? Do we print the date somewhere so everyone knows? So why post it at all? If you know it won’t change what people wear, why bother spending the time and money to print it at all?

If we operate on the honor system, then allow those that feel that a skirt that falls an inch above the knee is too short to not wear one. And those that see an inch above the knee as not a big deal, to wear it.

So you’re saying that when you see people “chomping down”, you tell them they can’t have Holy Communion, right? Or do you tell the usher, whose “job” it is to inform them of the rule? Ever tried to talk an usher into doing that? The parish secretary knows who does and doesn’t contribute. Maybe you missed her standing next to the priest with her clipboard?

You took the leap from having a rule to the necessity of keeping track of who keeps it. That is an unnecessary leap. If people want to read the rule and flaunt it, then it is no sin to let them be.

 

[L_piperatus]

Folks, let’s not forget the aspect of scandal. Churchgoers immodestly dressed are the spiritual equivalent of a driver speeding in a school zone, or a person with a highly contagious disease such as smallpox, walking free in the public. In other words, every single person who is dressed immodestly, is putting not only his/her own spiritual health and salvation to risk, but also the spiritual health and salvation of our children.

This is why I feel little or no sympathy for those who dress immodestly for church. My sympathies are reserved for our children whom they are going to tempt and lead down the road to ruin. Like it or not, I’m going to speak out against this. Your “rights” stop where other people’s rights begin. That’s why we put people with contagious diseases into quarantine, that’s why we enforce strict speed limits in school zones, and that’s why we the laity have all the rights and duty to speak out and demand our priests to start imposing a modest dress code in church, in case that they don’t already impose such a dress code. Also, let’s not forget that it was te laity who raised their voices and demanded the bishops who kept shuffling child molester priests from parish to parish, to stop doing that and start protecting our children.

Now it’s time to do the same with the dress codes, because some of our priests seem to be unconcerned and reluctant to fix the problem. We the laity definitely have a right to take a printout of the Vatican dress code to our parish priests, and ask them to start implementing something similar, or even that same Vatican dress code, in our parishes.

And once again, I do not feel sorry for those who feel inconvenienced by a dress code. I feel sorry for our children, for as the length of skirts became shorter, infection rates with STDs kept climbing higher. Now we are at the point that 1 in 4 teenage girls are infected with one or more STD’s - see here:

Quote from nytimes.com/2008/03/12/health/12iht-12std.10962180.html :

One in four U.S. teenage girls have STD’s, study finds

By Lawrence K. Altman

The first national study of four common sexually transmitted diseases among girls and young women has found that one in four are infected with at least one of the diseases, U.S. health officials reported Tuesday.

Nearly half the African-Americans in the study of teenagers ages 14 to 19 were infected with at least one of the diseases monitored in the study — human papillomavirus (HPV), chlamydia, genital herpes and trichomoniasis, a common parasite.

The 50 percent figure compared with 20 percent of white teenagers, health officials and researchers said at a news conference at a scientific meeting in Chicago.

The two most common sexually transmitted diseases, or STD’s, among all the participants tested were HPV, at 18 percent, and chlamydia, at 4 percent, according to the analysis, part of the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

Each disease can be serious in its own way. HPV, for example, can cause cancer and genital warts.

Among the infected women, 15 percent had more than one of the diseases.

So I say, let’s return to sanity, and it starts with cleaning our own house - cleaning the church. How can we be the salt of the earth, if we are all rotten inside? How can we demand modesty in the public square, when our own churches are infested with immodesty and an “anything goes” attitude?

Jesus cleaned the church from the merchants twice, and I believe he wouldn’t hesitate today to clean the church again, chasing out those who come dressed immodestly, even with a whip as he chased out the merchants. Padre Pio, the great saint and mystic, did the same. He was full of compassion for suffering people and he established one of the largest hospitals in Italy, yet when immodestly dressed people showed up at his church and at his confessional, he didn’t hesitate yelling at them to get out, and not to return until they got dressed modestly.

Also, this is why I put this thread here in the Family Life subforum. We the laity have a right to protect our children, our family members who are younger and more vulnerable to being scandalized by the immodestly clad, and we have a right to go demanding an end to the immodesty in our churches. We have a right to ask and even demand our bishops and priests to address the problem, and in a worst-case scenario we have the right to go all the way to Rome, just as the laity did in Boston, where the local Archbishop failed to satisfactorily deal with the child molester priests.

 

[EasterJoy]

We the laity have a right to protect our children, our family members who are younger and more vulnerable to being scandalized by the immodestly clad, and we have a right to go demanding an end to the immodesty in our churches. We have a right to ask and even demand our bishops and priests to address the problem, and in a worst-case scenario we have the right to go all the way to Rome, just as the laity did in Boston, where the local Archbishop failed to satisfactorily deal with the child molester priests.

I don’t think that putting up a sign concerning the desired dress code will result in a religious police state, but I also don’t think it is good for our children to get the idea that we have the right to go around making big demands of either our bishops or other members of the faithful.

Wishing that clear guidance would be given to the faithful who seem not to know better is one thing, but there is no peace in feeding a desire to exert control over those who are not under our authority. Padre Pio had the responsibility to guide those in his care, stridently if the situation called for it, but most of us only have that kind of authority with our own kids.

 

[SeekNFind]

I recently had a debate with a family member who sent me a photo of a bathing suit she was planning to wear and I flat out told her it was immodest and just because it’s the style, it wasn’t appropriate. Of course, when I challenged her about it, she didn’t want to hear it.

I think the culture needs a HUGE overhaul in the arena of fashion. DAILY, I shake my head over what women choose to adorn their bodies with. And I really appreciate the struggle men have. Even in the Church, I cringe when women walk in with inappropriate clothes.

As someone who appreciates style and fashion, modesty and fashion are not mutually exclusive. I regularly read the blog of Mormon The Pink Peonies because she dresses modestly but has great style. What I have discovered is people want to do whatever they want to do and live without any rules/standards–even those in the Church.

 

[Catya]

I think most youth these days have no sense of what’s modest or how a person can actually be attractive while covered up. The fashions featured in today’s media are all about sexual display. Quite crude & crass, but imagine you were born in the 1990’s and that’s all you know.

I’m beginning to think that parishes might to well by encouraging discussion of the issue - especially with youth. It would be great if the youth themselves could contribute to drafting some guidelines for their own parishes.

 

[L_piperatus]

I don’t think that putting up a sign concerning the desired dress code will result in a religious police state, but I also don’t think it is good for our children to get the idea that we have the right to go around making big demands of either our bishops or other members of the faithful.

Wishing that clear guidance would be given to the faithful who seem not to know better is one thing, but there is no peace in feeding a desire to exert control over those who are not under our authority. Padre Pio had the responsibility to guide those in his care, stridently if the situation called for it, but most of us only have that kind of authority with our own kids.

EasterJoy, I partly agree with you. The way I worded my post, it sounds too much as if I felt that we the laity had to go in and fix what our bishops messed up - which, while it did happen with the sexual abuse case in Boston, is fortunately extremely rare, kind of like the USA’s nuclear option of bombing Japan. I apologize for that. It would be extremely unfortunate for us, the laity, to start acting as if we didn’t look to our shepherds, first and foremost, to help us in our distress.

However, I would still like to emphasize that yes, I feel I have a right to interfere with others whom I perceive as a danger to public safety, even if they are not my own children or my own family members. I will call the police if I see someone speeding in a school zone and endangering our children’s bodies - and I will also speak out in my parish, on CAF, and so on, against the behavior of those who show up in church dressed immodestly, because they are scandalizing our children and thus endangering our children’s souls and eternal salvation.

In my mind, the problem of immodesty is a lot like the problem of gay marriage, the problem of drivers speeding in a school zone, or sick people with highly contagious diseases violating their duty to stay quaranteened. I have a duty to speak out, and I have a right to protect my loved ones against those who would hurt them, be they gay activists pushing their agenda, dangerous drivers, irresponsible patients with contagious diseases, or in this case, inconsiderate people who are dressing immodestly and thus are effectively scandalizing others, especially our youth who are most vulnerable to being scandalized and led astray.

Fr. Dominic Mary, in his sermon on EWTN (see youtube video at youtube.com/watch?v=PZHECJJbzPM ), used the expression “You have violated my rights, and it needs to stop!”. He said this, addressing people who show up in church dressed immodestly. I’m saying the same thing. I insist and demand that those who dress immodestly for church, stop it, because they have also violated my rights, and my family’s rights, to a peaceful environment free of scandal. And I bet Pope Benedict XVI felt the same, seeing people who turned St. Peter’s Square into a giant changing room. People were coming to St. Peter’s Square wearing shorts and tank tops, and they changed into more modest clothing right there on St. Peter’s Square, before entering St. Peter’s Basilica. Finally, the Pope had enough of seeing folks in underwear, boxer shorts, lingerie and whatnot, right under his balcony, and extended strict enforcement of a modest dress code to the whole of Vatican City, including the post office and supermarket. Hey, they have violated the Pope’s rights, and it needed to stop!

 

[Ohana]

Pet Peeve: Bra Straps. When i was young one hid them and was most embarrassed if they showed. Now they are a fashion statement. Call me old!

 

[Debora123]

Pet Peeve: Bra Straps. When i was young one hid them and was most embarrassed if they showed. Now they are a fashion statement. Call me old!

Showing bra straps are a fashion statement?? I must be behind the times, because I’ve never heard that before. As far as I know, getting the “invisible” clear straps is the things now specifically so that they WON’T show.

 

[Debora123]

You know, this poll just shows how relatively conservative CAF is.

Over half the people here think there should be a universal Church going dress code, when even the Church Herself doesn’t think there should be a universal Church going dress code.

 

[mini_me640]

I haven’t read all of the replies, so I apologize if this point has already been made.

I think the Vatican guidelines are a nice ideal for regular Mass attending Catholics. However, making it an actual dress code at every parish is going to discourage people who decide at the last minute to attend Mass when they haven’t in years, or people who are coming by after a late shift at work, etc. My parish is in a very poor, rather “unsavory” area of town. Most people in the neighborhood are not Catholic. I would hate to discourage any of them from coming in to see what the Church is like, or what a Catholic Mass is all about. Having a dress code might keep the people away who are in need the most of the Church and of Christ’s healing touch.

 

[TrixieMcGee]

You know, this poll just shows how relatively conservative CAF is.

Over half the people here think there should be a universal Church going dress code, when even the Church Herself doesn’t think there should be a universal Church going dress code.

Amen sister. I think the Church realizes that one dress code doesn’t work all around the world. Different cultures have different styles and different modesty standards regarding clothing. The problem is people don’t realize how ethnocentric they are being when they say that everywhere should have the same exact rules. That is saying that everywhere should have my western. first-world, regional, cultural standards. That isn’t fair. Also turning people away from mass isn’t fair. I ask the same question someone did earlier, What about a homeless person that doesn’t have “appropriate” clothing? Do they never get to go to mass? Or how about a poor person in a third world country with one or maybe two set of clothes none of which you deem “appropriate”, do they never get to go to Mass? Is that fair? Rules of dress are NOT universal.

With how some people on here talk about the “immodest” people, you would think they should be going to Church. Wouldn’t they need Church more? Or do you really think that only the most strict and “modest” should be allowed to go to Church? Everyone has to start somewhere.Also modesty has much more to do with attitude then dress. How you dress is such a tiny part of modesty. I think the worst sort of immodesty is spiritual immodesty. Thinking you are “holier than thou”. Spiritual pride is such a horrible thing that turns so many away. I am a really active Catholic and I know it almost turns me away.

 

[Stylites]

With how some people on here talk about the “immodest” people, you would think they should be going to Church. Wouldn’t they need Church more? Or do you really think that only the most strict and “modest” should be allowed to go to Church? Everyone has to start somewhere.Also modesty has much more to do with attitude then dress. How you dress is such a tiny part of modesty. I think the worst sort of immodesty is spiritual immodesty. Thinking you are “holier than thou”. Spiritual pride is such a horrible thing that turns so many away. I am a really active Catholic and I know it almost turns me away.

File it under “Judgment given = judgment received”.

 

[papaececi]

I attended a lovely church where there was a dress code. It was published in the bulletin and the church was properly catechized about 1) What constituted modesty 2) Why modesty is important: (chiefly, so we aren’t a distraction to our neighbor in church, so we don’t cause scandal or become a near occasion of sin) 3) How to be charitable to those who don’t know these things

I sometimes saw people dressed not following the dress code, but nobody enforced it, policed it, or threw dirty looks at anyone not following it.

It may seem extreme to go to the point of instituting a dress code, but our society has gone to such extremes that nothing is considered immodest and we hardly have a sense of what is innately modest.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy, I partly agree with you. The way I worded my post, it sounds too much as if I felt that we the laity had to go in and fix what our bishops messed up - which, while it did happen with the sexual abuse case in Boston, is fortunately extremely rare, kind of like the USA’s nuclear option of bombing Japan. I apologize for that. It would be extremely unfortunate for us, the laity, to start acting as if we didn’t look to our shepherds, first and foremost, to help us in our distress.

However, I would still like to emphasize that yes, I feel I have a right to interfere with others whom I perceive as a danger to public safety, even if they are not my own children or my own family members. I will call the police if I see someone speeding in a school zone and endangering our children’s bodies - and I will also speak out in my parish, on CAF, and so on, against the behavior of those who show up in church dressed immodestly, because they are scandalizing our children and thus endangering our children’s souls and eternal salvation.

In my mind, the problem of immodesty is a lot like the problem of gay marriage, the problem of drivers speeding in a school zone, or sick people with highly contagious diseases violating their duty to stay quaranteened. I have a duty to speak out, and I have a right to protect my loved ones against those who would hurt them, be they gay activists pushing their agenda, dangerous drivers, irresponsible patients with contagious diseases, or in this case, inconsiderate people who are dressing immodestly and thus are effectively scandalizing others, especially our youth who are most vulnerable to being scandalized and led astray.

Fr. Dominic Mary, in his sermon on EWTN (see youtube video at youtube.com/watch?v=PZHECJJbzPM ), used the expression “You have violated my rights, and it needs to stop!”. He said this, addressing people who show up in church dressed immodestly. I’m saying the same thing. I insist and demand that those who dress immodestly for church, stop it, because they have also violated my rights, and my family’s rights, to a peaceful environment free of scandal. And I bet Pope Benedict XVI felt the same, seeing people who turned St. Peter’s Square into a giant changing room. People were coming to St. Peter’s Square wearing shorts and tank tops, and they changed into more modest clothing right there on St. Peter’s Square, before entering St. Peter’s Basilica. Finally, the Pope had enough of seeing folks in underwear, boxer shorts, lingerie and whatnot, right under his balcony, and extended strict enforcement of a modest dress code to the whole of Vatican City, including the post office and supermarket. Hey, they have violated the Pope’s rights, and it needed to stop!

I see what you’re saying, but I can hardly see how a Christian could get the idea that there is a “right” to a “peaceful environment free of scandal” in this vale of tears. Being sinners, we kind of need to resign ourselves to the fact that we’ll see sins in progress from time to time, even on the grounds of our churches. Our children can learn that this is the case. It is easier to approach for forgiveness when you have learned from the cradle that a habit of forgiving (and just general generosity, for that matter) has to come along for those of us who have the hope of forgiveness and mercy for ourselves.

If you run a hospital, you insist on posting the rules of public safety, but you don’t turn away people who come in with an infection because they don’t wash their hands. You educate, educate, educate…but that education starts with hospitality to the uneducated. You don’t pretend that hand-washing is just some little quirk you personally like, rather than a matter of true import, but you do allow for a learning curve. Otherwise, the uneducated just turn away and spread whatever they’re carrying to the rest of the population.

 

[EasterJoy]

I attended a lovely church where there was a dress code. It was published in the bulletin and the church was properly catechized about 1) What constituted modesty 2) Why modesty is important: (chiefly, so we aren’t a distraction to our neighbor in church, so we don’t cause scandal or become a near occasion of sin) 3) How to be charitable to those who don’t know these things

I sometimes saw people dressed not following the dress code, but nobody enforced it, policed it, or threw dirty looks at anyone not following it.

It may seem extreme to go to the point of instituting a dress code, but our society has gone to such extremes that nothing is considered immodest and we hardly have a sense of what is innately modest.

This is what I mean!

 

[MissRose73]

To be honest, the dress code should be one of modesty and decency regardless of culture, gender, age, and weather for Mass. If I am traveling, and know that I will be going to church for either Mass or as a visitor, I will make sure I have a modest yet decent appropriate outfit plus by my personal devotion & choice - a head covering.

Yes, its been really hot recently in the US and thankfully the heatwave has gone away for a while. Apparently, it brought out stuff like the strapless, spaghetti strapped or items that don’t even extend half way between the backside & the knees of the many females (of many various ages) who were wearing them. What irritated me in my mind is that several women at one church I went to Saturday evening were doing ministries wearing short shorts. I would have mentally taken less offense if the shorts got decently close to the knees but if they bent over, you might have found out the type & color of their underwear.

Even with the very hot weather, people can wear a decent/modest plain short sleeved shirt (or a dressy sleeveless - non spaghetti strapped/ non strapless shirt for females) and shorts that reach at least the top of the knee that are: clean, not cut off style, not falling down their backside, or tight with a pair of non flop flop type sandals to Mass.