The Dress Code for the Vatican - Should it be Universal?

[Bezant]

**
PS: Our Lady’s words at Fatima in 1917: “Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son.”**[/INDENT]

But the year was also 1917, meaning ladies’ skirts were hovered somewhere between the (stocking-clad) ankle and the calf.

I think you should keep in mind that decency is actually quite relative, and even though that means confusion when we move between places with different standards of decency, I’ve seen enough bickering about everything from ladies in trousers to elbows on these forums to know how much bickering would follow if the Church established some official guidelines.

Good grief, isn’t it hard enough to be a Catholic?

 

[Stylites]

Sorry, but I don’t see the poll option that says the Church is a democracy needing anyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut, or that anyone of us has a right to even think their spiritual business pertains to such busy-body matters of ecclesial governance.

 

[thewanderer]

Sorry, but I don’t see the poll option that says the Church is a democracy needing anyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut, or that anyone of us has a right to even think their spiritual business pertains to such busy-body matters of ecclesial governance.

 

[SerraSemper]

No. This is appropriate for a basilica. It is not for other venues such as swimming pools.

Quote from cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/06/dress-code-for-vatican-should-it-be.html :

**The Dress Code for the Vatican - Should it be Universal? **
Posted by Dr. Taylor Marshall

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wHtHSIOeF...AB5I/xx_ldzmrA64/s1600/Vatican+dress+code.jpg

Below is the modesty Dress Code enforced for entry into Saint Peter’s Basilica.

The dress code forbids:

hats for lay men inside the basilica
shorts/skirts above the knees
sleeveless shirts
shirts exposing the navel
shirts for women that expose cleavage
shirts which contain profanity
excessive jewelry
The use of mobile phones is also prohibited, as is smoking.

In my lowly layman’s opinion, this same dress code should be printed out and posted on the door of every Catholic Church on earth…the immodest clothing displayed on Sunday mornings is over the limit.

The sad thing is that people (especially mothers) used to have a cultured sense of decency. Nowadays this has been lost so that grown men and women see nothing wrong with entering a church half clad. The solution is not to judge and shame others but to bring about a re-education on what is modest and appropriate.

I appreciate your balanced and carefully weighed thoughts on this matter.

PS: Our Lady’s words at Fatima in 1917: “Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son.”

Folks, please see also discussion and opinions at cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/06/dress-code-for-vatican-should-it-be.html .

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Living in Florida I don’t believe that the following items are particularly improper:

shorts/skirts above the knees
sleeveless shirts (for women)

If there were to be a dress code established I think we should go whole hog and require suits, with ties, for men and dresses/suits for women, much like all of the Protestant denominations do in my town.

This is a cop out. I grew up in Miami and went to college in Tallahassee. Granted, it was before V II, but the dress norm for women was a modest dress or slacks with a modest blouse. For men, it was slacks-not jeans or levis- and a shirt. Sport shirts were acceptable, but never t-shirts. It was unthinkable to dress otherwise because the feeling was that you were attending Christ in his earthly abode and you dressed properly out of respect…But then that was a time when most people went to confession weekly on Saturday afternoon and went without breakfast to recieve on Sunday…

 

[LightBound]

Quote from cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/06/dress-code-for-vatican-should-it-be.html :

**The Dress Code for the Vatican - Should it be Universal? **
Posted by Dr. Taylor Marshall

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wHtHSIOeF...AB5I/xx_ldzmrA64/s1600/Vatican+dress+code.jpg

Below is the modesty Dress Code enforced for entry into Saint Peter’s Basilica.

The dress code forbids:

hats for lay men inside the basilica
shorts/skirts above the knees
sleeveless shirts
shirts exposing the navel
shirts for women that expose cleavage
shirts which contain profanity
excessive jewelry
The use of mobile phones is also prohibited, as is smoking.

In my lowly layman’s opinion, this same dress code should be printed out and posted on the door of every Catholic Church on earth…the immodest clothing displayed on Sunday mornings is over the limit.

The sad thing is that people (especially mothers) used to have a cultured sense of decency. Nowadays this has been lost so that grown men and women see nothing wrong with entering a church half clad. The solution is not to judge and shame others but to bring about a re-education on what is modest and appropriate.

I appreciate your balanced and carefully weighed thoughts on this matter.

PS: Our Lady’s words at Fatima in 1917: “Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son.”

Folks, please see also discussion and opinions at cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/06/dress-code-for-vatican-should-it-be.html .

Please note that I’ve referred to this sign more than a few times on previous threads - each time pointing that it’s a good thing! However, what I request is, from the official Vatican page on Fatima, the link where it states Our Blessed Mother made that statement. There are far too many Fatima and other apparition sites that start quoting what was supposedly said by the Blessed Virgin about all kinds of things. Most of those sites are from sedevacantist or hostile to Rome groups- please don’t post any of those links (I think that is against forum rules anyway)

For anyone that responds to this… The official Vatican website is www.vatican.va

 

[severus68]

And what would the point be? To keep out folks, mostly women because these dress codes mostly go after women’s fashions, in the name of “modesty”? How very Christ-like.

Are we Catholics really this petty?

The minute I find a dress code posted outside my church is the minute my famly and I find another parish. I go to church to be with Christ, not to people watch or be the women’s modesty police. A posted dress code would only encourage parishioners to police skirt and sleeve lengths.

And the ushers would do, what? Tell miscreants to get out? Would they become bouncers who stand outside before Mass and cull the herd? That would do wonders to increase Mass attendance, I’m sure. And what about the woman who insists her skirt is long enough? Who’s going to be the one to tell her to get out of God’s house? Better start looking for some muscular, intimidating ushers who know how to deal with irate people.

And someone had better give the bishop a heads up because when the fact that people are being turned away from Mass because of their clothing choices hits the media he’s going to be asked to comment. And really, the Church isn’t criticised enough in the media these days. Let’s give folks yet another reason to dump on us.

The Vatican can get away with it because it’s the Vatican. It’s got the resources and capacity to be able to post and enforce a dress code. The average parish doesn’t.

At the end of the day I ask: Doesn’t the average Catholic - lay and religious - have enough to do than try to roll out a dress code in their parish?

Luna

Very well said.

The Church is about Christ and mass is about Christ and Christ’ presence. The fact that some spend time looking and judging what others wear is not about Christ. Who are we to judge anyone who attends mass? We should all rejoice together in the celebration of the Mass.
What are such rules supposed to do other than show the world that Catholicism is just about rules about petty things? The joke would be on us if we set rules to keep people away from Mass rather than encourage people to attend.

 

[pnewton]

I voted “no” despite the obvious slant to the question. My reason has nothing to do with the rather opinionated answers. In general, if one is asking a yes or no question, it is best no to put the reason for a yes vote or a no vote in the mouth of the answerer. The results of this poll are rendered even more meaningless.

My reason for answering no is that while the Church is universal, societal customs and local climate are not universal. The traditional stance of the Church is that such matters are left to the local bishop. The Holy Father is a shepherd, not a political dictator.

 

[Kouyate42]

I used to go to church in t-shirt and jeans. Now I attend prayer services all covered up, and think it a MUCH better to do so.

That said, I don’t think people should be necessarily given a dress code. It would be far better that you simply thank God that person is coming to church, and then lead by example to encourage them to dress more appropriately.

 

[TrixieMcGee]

I find lots of these modesty threads have people being a little too ethnocentric thinking that the western standard of “modesty” are “superior” to the rest of the world’s standards. Dress code standards vary from culture to culture due to cultural context of what parts of the body are sexualized in that culture, the weather, what cultural garb is, what that countries history is, ect. ect. ect. You can’t expect the whole world to conform to western ideas of modesty, it just isn’t practical and it is just another form of ethnocentrism.

 

[severus68]

Modesty is far more than not showing skin.

Modesty in dress includes:

• not looking flashy.
• not showing off.
• not trying to stand out.
• not spending too much money on clothes.

Modesty regarding the amount of skin showing is very fluid and depends on culture and climate.

To add, modesty is a lot more than about dress.

 

[Debora123]

Rules of modesty differ from country to country, state to state, culture to culture. You can’t have one universal rule for modesty, things just don’t work that way. Many countries are way poorer than we are here in the first world countries and hardly have any clothes and can’t be expected to have clothes that fit your your standards or “modesty”. Plus modesty has nothing to do with clothing, but that is another story. Also I agree that you could be turning people away, maybe even the people who need to be going to church the most.

 

[BingoBoy]

The choices in the poll were obviously written in such a way to be bias for the “yes” answer.

Either way, I say NO. And apparently, so does the Church:

The point is that its the Vatican standards, for the Vatican not for the whole Church. It would be really really easy for the Pope to come out and say," by the way, I expect every Catholic to follow these standards of dress when they go to Mass". But he doesn’t. One must ask why, the answer being that the Vatican does not see a need for a universal dress code. Most likely for the reason given here of the many different cultures and climates that people live in.

Well said.

 

[garn9173]

It was already in the mid-80’s at 7:00am this morning. There’s no way I could have worn long pants if I’d gone to Mass today. I once went to an 11:00am Mass in long sleeves & pants in 90+ degree weather and nearly passed out, so I don’t see an issue with respectable shorts and short sleeves.

If I could get away with wearing nice khaki shorts with a polo shirt to work during this insane heat wave that I wear to Mass during the Summer months, i’d do it in a heart beat.

 

[maryjk]

I have a question for all those that say we wouldn’t need “enforcers.”

Do you really believe that all you need to do is to put up a sign and everyone would suddenly change what they wear to church?

Because if that was the case, there wouldn’t need to be anyone at the Vatican stopping people. Everyone there would just know better. Right?

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I have a question for all those that say we wouldn’t need “enforcers.”

Do you really believe that all you need to do is to put up a sign and everyone would suddenly change what they wear to church?

Because if that was the case, there wouldn’t need to be anyone at the Vatican stopping people. Everyone there would just know better. Right?

Correct. A dress code would be utterly meaningless if someone wasn’t in charge of enforcing it.

Has anyone here ever been in the position of having to work with a dress code? Even in professional settings where people are being PAID to abide by one managers routinely call people out for not being dressed properly and send people home to change.

Church dress code = pastor’s headache
Church dress code = people policing
Church dress code = women shaming

I have another question: If enforcing a dress code was so easy-peasy, why don’t more churches have them? Why didn’t churches have them in the 60s when every woman 15-65 wore micro-minis? Or in the 70s when guys wore their shirts unbuttoned to their belly buttons? Because they’re IMPOSSIBLE to enforce unless you have something you can withhold from miscreants, that’s why. And what does a church have, the Eucharist? Is anyone here going to suggest we start denying the Body and Bloood of Christ by turning away fellow Catholics at the church doors because they don’t abide by some arbitrary, western-centric “modesty” code put together by people of obvious privilege? God help us if that’s what we’ve become.

Luna

 

[Allegra]

I have a question for all those that say we wouldn’t need “enforcers.”

Do you really believe that all you need to do is to put up a sign and everyone would suddenly change what they wear to church?

Because if that was the case, there wouldn’t need to be anyone at the Vatican stopping people. Everyone there would just know better. Right?

The change would be that they WOULD know better. If they see the sign, think to themselves, determine their own clothes do not meet the standards of modesty, and wear something more appropriate the following week, great! If they ignore the sign and wear shorts and flip flops, it ain’t your business! (And that’s the part that the clothing patrol never seem to get.)

 

[EasterJoy]

It was already in the mid-80’s at 7:00am this morning. There’s no way I could have worn long pants if I’d gone to Mass today. I once went to an 11:00am Mass in long sleeves & pants in 90+ degree weather and nearly passed out, so I don’t see an issue with respectable shorts and short sleeves.

It gets hot in Rome in the summer, too. The policy allows quite a bit of middle ground between sleeveless and most of the thighs showing and covered to the ankles and wrists.

I have a question for all those that say we wouldn’t need “enforcers.”

Do you really believe that all you need to do is to put up a sign and everyone would suddenly change what they wear to church?

Because if that was the case, there wouldn’t need to be anyone at the Vatican stopping people. Everyone there would just know better. Right?

I have a question for you: Who enforces the hour of fasting prior to Holy Communion? Who enforces the precept that the faithful are to contribute to the support of the Church? Who enforces the rule that those in grave sin may not receive Holy Communion?

To say that a rule could not be introduced because some kind of oppressive police would be necessary to enforce it does not make any sense. The Church mostly operates on the honor system, and has the habit of giving guidance to those who actually care, not to mention those who are bound only by the expansive concept that anything not explicitly forbidden must be not only permissible but unquestionably acceptable, if not just as laudatory as what anyone else does. Those who don’t care will keep doing what they like…just as they always have! How would that be any different than what we have now?

 

[Kouyate42]

Problem with having enforcers of any sort is that it can too easily turn into a fascistic and dogmatic insistence on some list of rules with harsh punishment for the slightest deviance, often based on completely arbitrary reasoning. What is considered a short sleeve to you might not be my idea of a short sleeve.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

I voted no (though I don’t like the way that option is worded - seems quite slanted/biased).

First, a lot of different places/churches are associated with a different culture. I’m all for dressing modestly in a church, but the western version of modesty isn’t universal.

Second, I don’t think it is fair to say that if someone isn’t in perfect attire then they can’t enter a church. Let’s say you’re out of town, you wake up on Sunday, and realize you forgot to pack your ‘church clothes’ (this has happened to me before). So you go to church dressed less respectfully than usual. The folks at that church should just turn you away from mass? I don’t think so.