The Duggers' 17 children

[Bruised_Reed]

Okay, so I did Google Bill Gothard and the Duggers too and what I noticed is that a lot of the phrasing of the criticisms on this thread are the same as those I read elsewhere. Please tell me you are getting your info from reliable sources and not from comboxes on blogs (and I found more of these for the Duggars than any subject in my recent searching.) Clearly people have a lot of opinions on this family.

I’ve known a few big families and I don’t think any were typical. Some were wonderful models of family life and others I think made big families look mindless and neglectful.

I don’t think it’s good for a child to raise a younger sibling but is that really what is happening? Or is it just what is perceived because we can’t fathom being that organized or having enough energy. Sorry, but I have a cousin that had 17 kids too. They appear to be more normal and well adjusted (than even I,) so it ain’t the number of children; it’s the love and stability they are able to offer their children.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Okay, so I did Google Bill Gothard (…)

and on a lighter note I did find Top Ten Gothardite Pick-up Lines.

 

[monicatholic]

it ***is ***annoying to be asked about the duggers and similarities to them. my post is not about annoyance. it is about a couple who seem to have something other than pure intent for bringing children into the world.

as for the celebrity who cannot get any privacy, the duggers are not a corrolative because they are celebrities precisely because of their large family. they seek this attention. in that, they have exposed their family to critique.

as for economically strapped families whose mothers early wean to increase income, again this is no correlative. being forced and making choice are not the same.

i am exceedingly pro-life. so much so that each life that God has abundantly blessed us with is cherished as a singular, unique gift.

i do not see that with the Duggers. i have seen precisely the opposite. it was mentioned that matching clothes does not necessarilly mean a failure to nurture the individual child. do matching names *and *matching clothes suggest a failure to recognise unique, unrepeatable personhood?

how about

matching clothes,

matching names,

scheduled baby replacement every year,

TV appearances,

forced weaning,

older kids raising baby siblings,

7 or 8 kids lined up with violins,

and the semi yearly announcement while holding a 40 minute old baby, “i want another one.”

does that just sort of suggest a myopic view of being fruitful?

i think it does. and i think it is an unhealthy thing for a christian family to strive toward. the duggers are a very flawed example of openness to life. i know lots of real families, with lots of kids, who struggle with money, work hard to pay for tuitions, or homeschool, or show up non-stop for all the classroom activities of all the kids, who buy their clothes at salvation army and garage sales, who are open to life while treasuring the lives they have been loaned as unique children of God. i would like to see ***those ***families on TV as real examples of openness to life.

what would the Duggers think if they read this? i would hope they would examine their motives. i would hope they would think, “maybe we’ve missed something important” and get down to the business of nurturing people instead of promoting a TV attractive conglomorate.

 

[monicatholic]

my last post seemed to imply only large families with bad finances qualifies are a good example of openness to life. i didn’t mean to imply that. sorry.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)

and the semi yearly announcement while holding a 40 minute old baby, “i want another one.”

d(…)

I’ve heard moms say they had this sentiment soon after giving birth and were surprised given the labor they just experienced. Some moms bliss out after labor.

I know a few families that have names with the same letter. Big families. I guess they are not dressed alike but so what? I would suggest that dressing alike will bring out their differences rather than conceal them.

I have to run for now and don’t have time to address the other points right now. It seems you are pretty much repeating what you’ve said before.

 

[Zooey]

Okay, so I did Google Bill Gothard and the Duggers too and what I noticed is that a lot of the phrasing of the criticisms on this thread are the same as those I read elsewhere. Please tell me you are getting your info from reliable sources and not from comboxes on blogs (and I found more of these for the Duggars than any subject in my recent searching.) Clearly people have a lot of opinions on this family.

I’ve known a few big families and I don’t think any were typical. Some were wonderful models of family life and others I think made big families look mindless and neglectful.

I don’t think it’s good for a child to raise a younger sibling but is that really what is happening? Or is it just what is perceived because we can’t fathom being that organized or having enough energy. Sorry, but I have a cousin that had 17 kids too. They appear to be more normal and well adjusted (than even I,) so it ain’t the number of children; it’s the love and stability they are able to offer their children.

I am not getting info from blogs. I am getting info from people who have followed Gothard, & broken away. I am getting info from young adults who have no more relationship with their parents because they were still being treated as children, after they grew up & were married (to the person chosen by the fathers of the 2 young adults).Some of these people are still in therapy, some have PTSD as a result of Gothard methods…
I love to see big families. I think they are wonderful. It’s the way this particular group of people raise children that disturbs me. Deeply.

ETA: The dressing alike, is the uniform that Bill Gothard requires for “godly” homes. All navy blue & white, always. He says “God told [him] this”. I think he needs a little better credentials before he starts being the voice of God…You know??
I believe when I hear that a saint has heard from God. I do NOT believe Bill Gothard is hearing from God. I don’t doubt he’s hearing something. I just think that, considering the messages, that it sounds more like a source rather far from the Father’s throne…You know???
You know, you all are so good about trying things up against the teaching of the Catholic Church, before following them. The Duggars, & people like them, have:shrug: staked everything on what this guy says that God told **him **to tell them???:nope: :nope: :nope:

 

[Zooey]

it ***is ***annoying to be asked about the duggers and similarities to them. my post is not about annoyance. it is about a couple who seem to have something other than pure intent for bringing children into the world.

as for the celebrity who cannot get any privacy, the duggers are not a corrolative because they are celebrities precisely because of their large family. they seek this attention. in that, they have exposed their family to critique.

as for economically strapped families whose mothers early wean to increase income, again this is no correlative. being forced and making choice are not the same.

i am exceedingly pro-life. so much so that each life that God has abundantly blessed us with is cherished as a singular, unique gift.

i do not see that with the Duggers. i have seen precisely the opposite. it was mentioned that matching clothes does not necessarilly mean a failure to nurture the individual child. do matching names *and *matching clothes suggest a failure to recognise unique, unrepeatable personhood?

how about

matching clothes,

matching names,

scheduled baby replacement every year,

TV appearances,

forced weaning,

older kids raising baby siblings,

7 or 8 kids lined up with violins,

and the semi yearly announcement while holding a 40 minute old baby, “i want another one.”

does that just sort of suggest a myopic view of being fruitful?

i think it does. and i think it is an unhealthy thing for a christian family to strive toward. the duggers are a very flawed example of openness to life. i know lots of real families, with lots of kids, who struggle with money, work hard to pay for tuitions, or homeschool, or show up non-stop for all the classroom activities of all the kids, who buy their clothes at salvation army and garage sales, who are open to life while treasuring the lives they have been loaned as unique children of God. i would like to see ***those ***families on TV as real examples of openness to life.

what would the Duggers think if they read this? i would hope they would examine their motives. i would hope they would think, “maybe we’ve missed something important” and get down to the business of nurturing people instead of promoting a TV attractive conglomorate.

my last post seemed to imply only large families with bad finances qualifies are a good example of openness to life. i didn’t mean to imply that. sorry.

I totally understood what you meant!! If you had 17 kids, I would be thrilled for you. I would be pretty much thrilled if pretty much most of the folks here , would have 17 kids.
I just want the kids to have a home where they are loved, & cared for, by their parents, because children are individual human beings…Not because their parents are trying to “build an army to fight against the ungodly”…Which to the Gothard crew means: You & me, my friends. You & me…

 

[monicatholic]

zooey,

even without knowing the theological missteps of the Duggers (though sensing something is amiss) the face they present on TV is already disturbing enough.

whether the nice folks on this thread agree or no, i’m glad to know someone’s getting my meaning. thanks.

monicatholic

 

[coffeelover]

I agree with dranzal and bruised reed.

From what I’ve seen, this is a happy and well adjusted family…more so than most modern families. Of course none of us have ever lived in that house so we can’t know for sure…but I was fairly impressed with how they run their household. I only have 2 children so far and I look in awe at what the Duggars have managed, and how smoothly everything goes for a household that size.

I was an only child, and my parents gave me very little responsibility growing up. And I wasn’t taught anything about raising children. When I had kids of my own, I had no experience and had to learn moment by moment. So from where I stand, I actually think it’s great that the Duggar children get lots of hands-on experience, it will really help them later in life when they have children of their own. I don’t see them as having the children raise the younger kids. I do see it as each child helping out, and learning important skills etc that will strengthen their character and sense of belonging to a family. None of us can know for sure, but I think it’s highly likely that the mother, Michelle, takes a very active role in each of her children’s lives, even though the kids do help each other out a lot.

I didn’t find it offensive, or demeaning to the newborn, when Michelle said she’d like more kids. I don’t think that makes the newborn any less special at all. Just because she is open to the possibility of more children, and actually looking forward to it, does not at all mean that she takes anything away from the newest child. I find it refreshing to hear of a family so open to life in the midst of a culture of death. I have seen no evidence to question her or the husband’s motives in this. To me they seem like very loving parents who know how to raise decent, well mannered children. Too bad they’re not Catholic though.

And what’s so bad about having matching clothes? I think she said in one of the documentaries that it was to emphasize their countenance/demeanor. There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think that’s virtuous! People today are so focused on trivial stuff, that they don’t stop to realize what’s important. Clothes are not as important as the commercials on TV tell us. They don’t make or break a person, and in the long run, there are so many more important things in life.

I also don’t understand the big deal behind the “J” names. It’s a little too cutesy for me, but I don’t see it as evidence of an ulterior motive or anything. I don’t see why the names are so questionable.

I doubt the Duggars are anything but a loving, decent, and highly organized household…the kind that modern culture lacks, and so many people, including myself, can learn from.

 

[monicatholic]

bruised reed,

it’s true that each of the items i listed as indicitive of problem, how each of those items could be dismissed: i.e., blissed out post-partum mother, easy laundry, obsession with the letter J. but taken as a whole, they draw a very significant picture.

considering even a shadow of the proposed theological underpinnings, my original post is fortified.

monicatholic

 

[masondoggy]

Who is this Bill Gothard guy? What is that movement all about?

 

[Zooey]

bruised reed,

it’s true that each of the items i listed as indicitive of problem, how each of those items could be dismissed: i.e., blissed out post-partum mother, easy laundry, obsession with the letter J. but taken as a whole, they draw a very significant picture.

considering even a shadow of the proposed theological underpinnings, my original post is fortified.

monicatholic

I’m right with you!!
I believe that “open to life” has to include “treasures each individual life”, or what does it really mean? For me, the whole point of being prolife is being aware of each child as an individual…
That’s what I don’t see in them. I don’t see any indication that they appreciate what a gift a child is.
And you’re right: It’s a whole lot of things. Any one of them alone…but they’re all weird. Besides having a very weird, very peculiar religion to go with it.

My thing is: A baby is a human being. Not a toy to play mommy with for a few months, & then hand down to somebody else. Even if it is a family member.

 

[Zooey]

Who is this Bill Gothard guy? What is that movement all about?

It’s a very peculiar offshoot of extreme fundamentalism…He wants his followers to raise an army of Gothardites, to fight off the forces of evil (including the rest of us in the world).
Women are really, really considered inferior. Children are programmed. No other word for it…If you put a wee one down on the floor & he crawls or walks off, you don’t go for a camera, to take a picture to remember…You go get a :crying:switch, & :crying: whip him with it, for moving without permission.

And you are NEVER allowed to leave home until you marry. (All marriages are arranged by the fathers).

Women are never, ever allowed to work outside the home; that’s an act of rebellion against God. (Even if you’re widowed & your children are starving). You’re supposed to beg your pastor for money to support them, & if you don’t get it…Too bad.
The whole family is under the “ownership” of the father/husband. Oh, and women must not vote, either. Nor get an education beyond Gothard’s prescribed 52 books. (His books…).
Boys have their career chosen by their father. Girls stay home & wait on him…

:dts: Gee… Let’s all run out & convert–NOT!!

 

[SeekerJen]

Aren’t there posters on these boards who live in the Duggars’ neighborhood and know them well (i.e. their kids play with the Duggar kids, etc.)? Wouldn’t they be more credible sources on the Duggars’ parenting skills, how they view their children, etc.?

I agree that by allowing their lives to be nationally televised, the Duggars are opening themselves up to all kinds of criticism. Some of it may be deserved. I’m sure all of us deserve some criticism. And I’m sure it’s very frustrating to be a parent of a large family which is constantly compared to the Duggars by people who don’t know any better and may not care to learn. But a lot of this thread seems to be based on speculation of a couple’s assumed motives and attitudes, which amounts to gossip about hearsay.

Edited to add: yes, that Gothard philosophy appears to be rather unsound and potentially very damaging. Still, we do not know if the Duggars whip their children for walking in the wrong direction, etc., so it seems unfair to speculate that they do.

 

[monicatholic]

charitable posters have written they don’t want to judge the duggers. i agree. discernment, though, is not judgment.

newadvent.com describes the higher order of discernment of spirits (‘spirits’ meaning the complex influences that inform the will) something like a special charism, evidenced in saints and other holy souls (paraphrased.) newadvent.org/cathen/05028b.htm
it continues " Second, ***discernment of spirits may be obtained through study and reflection. It is then an acquired human knowledge, more or less perfect, but very useful in the direction of souls." ***

this christian (me) invokes the employment of discernment without being charged with judgment.

i have read/ heard so many christian women mention they would like to be like mrs. dugger-- organized, capable, organized, energetic, organized. **martha, you are anxious over many things! **

mrs. dugger is not my role model. fail as i might, the Blessed Mother is. when our babies are born, instead of marking my calender for the next one, i try to be still as long as i can. i treasure all these things in my heart. the particular God-given dignity of this baby in my arms deserves that.

 

[monicatholic]

it occurs to me that i might have begun where i ended and saved many words.

that probably means i should finish off making a case for my perspective. so i’ll be done.

thanks all.

 

[mamacita]

zooey,

even without knowing the theological missteps of the Duggers (though sensing something is amiss) the face they present on TV is already disturbing enough.

whether the nice folks on this thread agree or no, i’m glad to know someone’s getting my meaning. thanks.

monicatholic

I get it! The info I got about the mom not doing any laundry and the whole passing off the baby to a sibling after so many months was from a post on CAF that someone wrote months ago about them, AND it was what was on the televised show that they heard it from, not some “media source”, it was the Duggars own words on the show from what I was told. I however do not have cable/satellite, so I haven’t seen the shows

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I am not getting info from blogs. I am getting info from people who have followed Gothard, & broken away. I am getting info from young adults who have no more relationship with their parents because they were still being treated as children, after they grew up & were married (to the person chosen by the fathers of the 2 young adults).Some of these people are still in therapy, some have PTSD as a result of Gothard methods…
I love to see big families. I think they are wonderful. It’s the way this particular group of people raise children that disturbs me. Deeply.

ETA: The dressing alike, is the uniform that Bill Gothard requires for “godly” homes. All navy blue & white, always. He says “God told [him] this”. I think he needs a little better credentials before he starts being the voice of God…You know??
I believe when I hear that a saint has heard from God. I do NOT believe Bill Gothard is hearing from God. I don’t doubt he’s hearing something. I just think that, considering the messages, that it sounds more like a source rather far from the Father’s throne…You know???
You know, you all are so good about trying things up against the teaching of the Catholic Church, before following them. The Duggars, & people like them, have:shrug: staked everything on what this guy says that God told **him **to tell them???:nope: :nope: :nope:

Sorry, Zooey, I left out most of my thought process with my earlier post. I took your suggestion to google and really focused on the Duggers and what has been said about them. Gothard and his beliefs are a different can o’ worms. Control freak, anyone? (Did Gothard really have a problem with Cabbage Patch dolls?!) I don’t question your understanding of Gothard or his teachings or the results of following him. I just question the information being attributed to the Duggers on this thread, and a couple of past threads.

This is where I found the pick up lines. It’s seriously funny.

 

[mamacita]

**I am all for large families, don’t get me wrong. My mom is one of 15 (no sets of twins in there), I am one of 9, and I am having my 4th. I have at last count 112 FIRST cousins (my grandparents have including my siblings and I, 121 grandkids AND 37 GREAT grandkids w/ 3 on the way). So, do I have a problem with them having 17 kids? Nope. What I have a problem with is what I read on CAF that someone saw on TV (the Duggars special show) about how they run their household, that’s what I don’t agree with. So for those of you that think it is wrong to state what has been said by another CAF member who saw this on the show, then so be it. I just know that kids need responsibility, yes, but only to a certain extent. Let kids be kids while they can for crying outloud!

As far as Bill Gothard goes, I have never heard/read about him before so I can’t say either way if the Duggars follow him.**

 

[Bruised_Reed]

bruised reed,

it’s true that each of the items i listed as indicitive of problem, how each of those items could be dismissed: i.e., blissed out post-partum mother, easy laundry, obsession with the letter J. but taken as a whole, they draw a very significant picture.

considering even a shadow of the proposed theological underpinnings, my original post is fortified.

monicatholic

it occurs to me that i might have begun where i ended and saved many words.

that probably means i should finish off making a case for my perspective. so i’ll be done.

thanks all.

Using the word “obsession” to characterize the use of the same initial is rather strong, don’t you think? And even as a whole, they don’t indicate a problem for me. However, having some idea that this is driven by their belief in Gothard’s teaching is what gives me pause. I don’t know to what degree they follow him, so there’s not much more I can say.

I acknowledge that you are done with this so I will offer my last comment, too. For whatever reason the stuff the Dugger’s do bugs you and for whatever reason I feel prompted to stick up for them. I guess we’ll have to see how this develops and if a there will ever be a tell-all book by J. Duggar (which one? which one?!?) Heh.