The "Dump Him" List for Girls

[Lost_Wanderer]

The point was sometimes through ypur own discernment you still end up like Jona, regardless what you try to do. Anyway Im done here as Im beating a dead horse

It’s not discernment unless you’re dead set and are fully acting upon it. You’ve accused me of giving sketchy advice but I’ve seen enough advice on these forums about vocations to say yours that are out of the loop. I did not misread your words. You just can’d admit that you don’t put 'em together properly.

Heck, even John Vianney persisted that he was called and did everything to live up once he discerned. Frankly, you sound like the people who tried to discourage him (only it’s for marriage instead of priesthood).

 

[chevalier]

1. He doesn’t care if you lie to your family.

I’m curious what thought process led you to that one?

I am not presuming that you meant to say the girl actually did lie. But it can sound that way. Someone who lies does a worse thing than someone who merely doesn’t care about the lying. Thus a girl who would dump a guy for not caring about her lying should first of all herself be dumped for lying.

1. He leads you away from God.

That’s true but vague. There have been some topics in the Family Life section of the forum from people who were dumped because someone believed it was God’s will or they were leading him or her away from God.

1. He puts you down- even if he then says he’s “just kidding.”

Careful with that one! Someone could read into it too absolutely. If you say, in joke, “oh that was certainly very smart of you,” when someone made a dumb mistake, that is certainly joking about putting someone down. But it’s very hard to find ill will in it, let alone something dangerous.

1. He lies to you.

True but I think it would be good to stress that the list is not a one-way street. Don’t do unto others… We shouldn’t be looking for faults in others that we ourselves fall into as well. Someone who had herself lied to her boyfriend, for example, would have little credibility when dumping the boyfriend for lying to her.

1. He flirts with other girls.

See above. There’s got to be equal measure here. But also you can’t really or shouldn’t avoid taking account of any possible cultural or individual differences. We all agree cheating is wrong. But we won’t all agree as to what form of flirting is cheating or even what actually is or is not flirting.

1. He uses guilt to get you to do what he wants.

Again the mirror test. The more stringent requirements you put on a girl’s boyfriend, the more you need to remember that the girl shouldn’t be applying unequal measure to her boyfriend. Show me a young girl that never guilt-trips her boyfriend into anything?

Don’t fall for the “everything for the girl” trap. Relationships are generally about compromise, not about the man meticulously avoiding any impression of leaving less than perfect freedom to the woman. Later on, marriage is about living together and sharing life, rather than about constantly affirming each other’s freedom. To some extent, guilt trips, sad eyes, sweet eyes, coaxing and cajoling, will happen. And don’t tell me girls aren’t good at that type of thing.

1. He resents time you spend with your friends and family.

Careful with that one. Nobody is a good judge of his own case and I can’t judge my own cases from the past either. But I can tell you how it feels from a guy’s side when the girl prefers to spend time with her friends and family rather than with him. Basically, he feels like he’s put on the side track. His self-esteem is hurt, he feels abandoned, demoted, his psychological need of contact–spending time with the girl–goes unmet.

Speaking of which, how would you feel about a situation spelt thus: “doesn’t care to spend time with you, prefers to be with other guys or his family?” And it’s the same for the guy as it is for the girl. Equality!

Please note that dynamics of a relationship change. It may be that one party needs more contact first, then the other party later. And when one needs contant, the other is unwilling to give it because it means time away from things one likes doing. Hobbies, talking to friends, whatever. It requires accommodation, it requires giving up some. It may be that a girl is first disinclined from making room for a guy in her timetable but later when he adapts and she in the meantime falls harder for him and/or begins to need his presence more, she feels bad about him not giving her the time with him that she needs. I’ve been there done that. Do you think I reacted as maturely as it may sound from my writing right now? Absolutely not, I was lost and freaking out. And I was already an adult past my 20th year. 22 to 24 IIRC. Not that long ago given I’m just ahead of 30 now. I was immature, sure. Selfish, maybe. Had issues? Sure. An evil psycho? Not for me to judge but I doubt it.

Plus, it’s really hard to take when a girl defines the terms of a relationship to suit her and she thinks she’s entitled to do it, unilaterally to be precise, and also change at will, generally without notice. This is not fair, nor is it equality. It’s one-sided. Before you tell girls to watch for guys freaking out, you need to tell them to avoid giving guys the reason. And I’m not talking about girls needing to walk on eggsheels, I’m talking about girls obeying the basic rules of justice and equity in dealing with another person like everybody should!

1. He behaves badly and then blames it on other people or on things that happen to him.

Everybody does that, including a whole lot of girls. Aren’t girls being brought up to behave in that way nowadays, by radical feminists who blame everything on men and preach the freedom of women from any bounds of morality or ethics? Besides, how can a girl be sure that she doesn’t have the same vice when finding it in her boyfriend?

 

[chevalier]

1. He can’t stand on his own two feet without you; he emotionally unable to function by himself.

Again, works both ways (while generally true). But avoid one error which women have made time after time: don’t choose the man who’s less interested in you. Don’t presume that showing less interest in you means he’s more wholesome, more self-assured etc. That latter one may be true but in a different way from what you’d like. Don’t commit the error of simply rejecting a guy who has actually managed to fall in love with you. Do you prefer men who are cold about you? Sure not. So conduct yourself accordingly!

Don’t ever fall for disinterest, lack of care, lack of feelings or emotions, lack of manners, lack of regard for you. You may be simply disrespecting someone who respects you, shunning someone who puts you ahead of himself. (The entire “pedestal” discussion comes to mind.)

1. You can’t stay with him and remain pure.

True but avoid blaming him for your own faults just like you wouldn’t like him to blame you for his.

Last word: Remember that good guys come with flaws. And a bad guy could still make it through the checklist.

One more thing, actually:

1. You feel the need to “fix” him.

Again, don’t blame a guy for a girl’s own problem. If she just wants the relationship to fix the guy then I support that point wholeheartedly. Fixing is a habit that leads girls to act self-destructively, like poor lemmings. But if a girl simply feels the need to make her boyfriend stop smoking (cigarettes, not marijuana) or teach him proper grammar, then that’s something the two can really resolve.

Feel free to ask me if you have any questions regarding whatever I wrote or similar things.

 

[maryjk]

I’m curious what thought process led you to that one?

Again, I will let everyone know.

This list is from a booklet. It is on page 24 (and 25) of the 46 page booklet. Faithdancer didn’t come up with this list.

The list is more fully explained in the booklet. There is also a booklet for boys.

 

[chevalier]

Again, I will let everyone know.

This list is from a booklet. It is on page 24 (and 25) of the 46 page booklet. Faithdancer didn’t come up with this list.

The list is more fully explained in the booklet. There is also a booklet for boys.

Someone care to summarise that page for me then? I’m an old guy from a different continent, not exactly an American teenager.

 

[maryjk]

Someone care to summarise that page for me then? I’m an old guy from a different continent, not exactly an American teenager.

The page I mentioned has the list. The booklet has 64 pages explaining everything.

So the list IS the summary. So, no I can’t summarize the page.

It seems that many here seem to think this is an attack on men. It isn’t. It is what a woman should look for in a man. And what kind of woman she should be.

In fact, the booklet is MORE about a young woman changing herself. To stop going to parties and getting drunk. To stop lying to her parents. To stop sleeping around. To just stop.

Here is a paragraph from the booklet in the section titled, “Parents are clueless.”

If you’re lying to your family and sneaking around, don’t expect your boyfriend to win the respect of your family. Lying to them and going against their will only creates resentment.

Any relationship divorced from your family’s influence and direction is an unhealthy relationship. Therefore, the sooner you get a real relationship with your parents, the better. God promises that if we honor our parents, good will come of it. It was eerie how soon my relationships began to improve after I realized that. Sure, that’s easier said than done, and I know not everyone’s family is perfect, but you have to start somewhere. If your parents don’t offer you guidance, find some adult you trust and seek advice there.

From a section titled, “Boys will be boys.”

One elderly man said it best: " I’ve seen a lot of generations come and go, and all the guys have been the same: saying sweet things to get the girls to do stuff with them. But this generation of women is different. They’re stupid enough to let the guys have it.

Blunt words, but sadly true.

The fact is that every guy has the ability to be a pure gentleman. But why should he go the trouble? If he can get all the physical benefits of marriage without even knowing a girl’s last name, don’t expect him to pop the question anytime soon (much less woo her with real romance.) We’ve taken away a lot of his motivation. All a guy needs to do is give a girl a beer, tell her she’s pretty, and the hook-up begins.

We can either keep blaming the guys or do something about it. Instead of male-bashing, we can have the courage to bring out the best in them.

 

[chevalier]

The page I mentioned has the list. The booklet has 64 pages explaining everything.

So the list IS the summary. So, no I can’t summarize the page.

Too bad. I was hoping for a summary of the reasons why the Authors put that point on the list.

It seems that many here seem to think this is an attack on men. It isn’t. It is what a woman should look for in a man. And what kind of woman she should be.

It’s more of an attack on reason. As well, I do feel at least a little attacked in our exchange and I don’t think I gave you a reason.

In fact, the booklet is MORE about a young woman changing herself. To stop going to parties and getting drunk. To stop lying to her parents. To stop sleeping around. To just stop.

Okay, but the list is full of simplifications that are made of “golden rules” that aren’t exactly all the gold when you think about them for a longer while. The OP asked about this and I gave my answer. I don’t meant to cast doubt on the Authors’ knowledge or integrity or anything of the sort but it does need to be said that people shouldn’t be taking young chastity speakers as oracles. Especially without understanding things in the proper context.

If you’re lying to your family and sneaking around, don’t expect your boyfriend to win the respect of your family. Lying to them and going against their will only creates resentment.

Any relationship divorced from your family’s influence and direction is an unhealthy relationship. Therefore, the sooner you get a real relationship with your parents, the better. God promises that if we honor our parents, good will come of it. It was eerie how soon my relationships began to improve after I realized that. Sure, that’s easier said than done, and I know not everyone’s family is perfect, but you have to start somewhere. If your parents don’t offer you guidance, find some adult you trust and seek advice there.

Good. Nothing to complain about in that paragraph. Thank you for taking the effort to type it in. What I need to point out, though, is that in this picture we have a girl who herself is lying and is advised to dump her boyfriend for not caring that she lies. Do we tell a thief to dump people who don’t care about his stealing? A Christian needs first to pull the beam out of his own eye before addressing the mote in the eye of another. Our lying vs other people failing to care that we lied is like beam vs mote.

One elderly man said it best: " I’ve seen a lot of generations come and go, and all the guys have been the same: saying sweet things to get the girls to do stuff with them. But this generation of women is different. They’re stupid enough to let the guys have it.

Blunt words, but sadly true.

The fact is that every guy has the ability to be a pure gentleman. But why should he go the trouble? If he can get all the physical benefits of marriage without even knowing a girl’s last name, don’t expect him to pop the question anytime soon (much less woo her with real romance.) We’ve taken away a lot of his motivation. All a guy needs to do is give a girl a beer, tell her she’s pretty, and the hook-up begins.

We can either keep blaming the guys or do something about it. Instead of male-bashing, we can have the courage to bring out the best in them.

Erm, women can’t really “bring out the best” in men on their own, as much as they should try. More like lend themselves as volunteers to help the Lord’s cause. The role and even the power of a woman is great, often the woman is a better person than the man, there’s a whole lot of conversion stories where a man is converted by a holy wife… much fewer stories that go the other way round. Still, men and women are equal. Women aren’t really angelic beings compared to mere mortal men or anything of the sort. So it’s not like men are fallen ones to be saved by the vaguely women. We’re all equally sinners and all equally children of God.

As for generations, every generation has had its troubles and fornication has been around since forever. It wasn’t invented in the 1960.ies. Perhaps it escalated. But it would be too much of a simplification to say that everything was proper and moral until 1960. A little study of history reveals that bad, bad things in the area of sexual ethics have been rather common among mankind throughout its entire history.

Regarding the other point, for the record, the feminine form of a gentleman is a lady. We’ve been living in a world of simplification where “being a gentleman” is basically synonymous with the obligation for a man to be somewhat polite, while “lady” is basically a courteous reference to any woman, taken in abstraction from the duty to act like one. Restoring some symmetry here would be a good start, as much as I agree with the lady who said that equality with men was a step down for a lady, not a step up. Basically, acting like a lady. Not necessarily in a social class context.

 

[Mar044]

As a Youth Ministry Coordinator I’m going through the Theology of the Body for Teens material, creating presentations for our kids on this crucial information. In reviewing one of the lessons in the text I was struck by this list, adapted by the authors of the text and grounded in Catholic teaching. I’m struck by how accurate the list is, and how it calls both men to live up to it, and women not to settle for any guy who isn’t capable of living up to it. Anyway here it is, and I welcome your thoughts:

**"Here is a list for girls of sixteen behaviors, any one of which, if exhibited by a particular guy you like or are dating, is enough to end a relationship- or, at the very least, place serious doubt in your heart about continuing the relationship.

The “dump him” list for girls, adapted from the book Pure Womanhood:

1. You’ve had to tell him more than once to stop.
2. You feel the need to “fix” him.
3. He looks at pornography.
4. He hits you, pushes you, or does anything to frighten you.
5. He has a drinking or drug problem.
6. He doesn’t care if you lie to your family.
7. He leads you away from God.
8. He puts you down- even if he then says he’s “just kidding.”
9. He cheats on you.
10. He lies to you.
11. He flirts with other girls.
12. He uses guilt to get you to do what he wants.
13. He resents time you spend with your friends and family.
14. He behaves badly and then blames it on other people or on things that happen to him.
15. He can’t stand on his own two feet without you; he emotionally unable to function by himself.
16. You can’t stay with him and remain pure."

from Jason & Crystalina Evert and Brian Butler, Theology of the Body for Teens: Student Workbook, p. 170. 2006, Ascension Press.**

wtf…15…really, you would dump someone for being needy…
coming from a needy person, I like being close to the ones I love, and your lover is your support…and unless you means something else I know the type that dump men because they have emotions…then choose men who drink and emotionally handicapped.

as for number 10…last time I told a girl the truth about her dress I didn’t see her for two weeks…

 

[CesarAugustus]

LW, I have been told similar things IRL too.

Both by religious and non so religious people. Is like for some people, if you are single, practising Catholic, and interested in the Faith, is a sign that you should be in the nearest Seminary or Monastery.

An yet, some of them are complaining about the destruction of family and such. Yes, if they want to send practising Catholic men to Seminary, don’t be surprised if the Catholic girls would end with secular or not practising men.

In University, people have said to me, that they though I was a Seminarian. Other people, say that I could be a Monk. A Priest from a Traditionalist society, thought I was a Franciscan. In a way, is flattering, but, I feel somewhat unworthy at the same time. Also, I feel I’m called to marriage… and, speaking of that, I remember that I had a conversation with two girls from a youth group (also, they have some positions in the Archdiocese youth pastoral) that went like this:

I was praying the Pater Noster in Latin, and they said, that if I considered Priesthood. I told them that my vocation was marriage (and yes, I have considered Priesthood too), so they said something like this:

…in the Priesthood, you could have a relationship with God,
I said:, I want to have children,
they said: your Parishioners could be your children,
they said next: so you want a woman?..

Seriously, why they asked that? is there something wrong with that? is like if one is interested in religion, that means, no women for you! … Incredible.

Blessings!

 

[Allegra]

Any good healthy marriage will still struggle with these two points.

These haven’t been an issue in my marriage. While I do think they may be common, I don’t think they are healthy. I was caught off guard by the “resents spending time with friends and family” because when I think of relationships that have had that issue, I tend to agree with the side that thinks the other is spending too much time with others and neglecting the relationship. However, after considering that, I realized that this list is designed for a teenage girl, who should not be in a relationship with a boy that trumps other relationships like a marriage would. Therefore, I think it is a suitable piece of advice. I would just want to make it clear that I don’t think that women should be spending several nights a week with friends and other family members and leaving their husband alone. (or the other way around either.)

 

[Allegra]

What is the “dump her” list for boys, assuming there is a book called Pure Manhood?

I’d be interested to see that too. I expect alot of the points are similar to the girl’s list.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I would add:

o He doesn’t treat his own parents with respect.

o He doesn’t want to meet your parents or participate in family events with them.

o He disparages your faith, even jokingly.

o He is of a non-Christian faith and hints that he will convert if you form a relationship with him, but refuses to openly discuss that with issue when you are with his family. He will never convert to Catholicism and will end up insisting that you convert.