The Early Christians were Sola Scriptura

[JackVk]

Why are you distorting what Pat said? This is wrong, IMO.

How am i distorting it? The Catholic Church kept the Word. Martin Luther removed 7 books from the Bible to support his own theology, and then said that the bible is open to private interpretation.

So the Reformation began. The reason behind the many denominations: At a chuch, Bob says that X passage means this. Joe disagrees, and says it means another thing. Joe leaves and starts his own church because he and Bob were at odds in their own interpretations. This happened, over and over again.
Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has stuck to her same doctrine since 33 A.D. and is still going strong.

 

[SyCarl]

Your right, The ECFs viewed scripture as inspired and authoritative in addition to other writings. But read in their full context they all for the most part viewed the Church as the proper context for their interpretation based on their rule of faith or tradition that had been succesively handed down from one generation to the next. The scriptures being interpreted in any way contrary to the Church who guarded it against so many heretical groups was always condemned.

But where did the Rule of Faith come from?

Cyril of Jerusalem says that while it was delivered by the church, but it was built up from all the Scriptures, and that his audience should confirm each point for themselves out of Scripture. He also answers the question about those who couldn’t read or didn’t have the time.

. But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, **we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines. **This summary I wish you both to commit to memory when I recite it, and to rehearse it with all diligence among yourselves, not writing it out on paper, but engraving it by the memory upon your heart, taking care while you rehearse it that no Catechumen chance to overhear the things which have been delivered to you. I wish you also to keep this as a provision through the whole course of your life, and beside this to receive no other, neither if we ourselves should change and contradict our present teaching, nor if an adverse angel, transformed into an angel of light should wish to lead you astray. For though we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that you have received, let him be to you anathema. So for the present listen while I simply say the Creed, and commit it to memory; but at the proper season expect the confirmation out of Holy Scripture of each part of the contents. For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith. And just as the mustard seed in one small grain contains many branches, so also this Faith has embraced in few words all the knowledge of godliness in the Old and New Testaments. Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which you now receive, and write them an the table of your heart.

(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 5, Paragraph 12)
newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm

and

Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 4, Paragraph 17)
newadvent.org/fathers/310104.htm

They were not accept anything unless it be proved by Scripture.

 

[elvisman]

Only it is not the Word of God; what does the Word of God teach; not transubstantiation of the bread and wine. This is why I am not religious because outside of Sola Scriptura; anything and everything can and does go forth from men.

Not the word of God? 1 Cor. 11:27-29??? John 6??
You are the first “Christian” I’ve ever come across who denies that the Scriptures are the word of God. Whay are you even on this thread then??

But who am I before men but a lowly Christian transformed by the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ? What was it that Jesus saw in me? Nothing. What made me different than anyone else here? Nothing. What does God need me for? Nothing? What can I do for God? Nothing. What can God do for me? Everything in Christ Jesus alone. Why did He do it? For His glory alone; because He wanted to. Why doesn’t He do it for everyone? Because He chose not to; for His own glory.

Man, you REALLY don’t understand the Christian faith, do you, my Calvinist friend. you don’t seem to understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation.

**Jesus died for EVERYBODY and redeemed EVERYBODY (John 3:16). God wills the salvation of ALL (1 Tim. 2:4). Unfortunately all will NOT be saved because of their refusal of God’s grace (**Romans 11:22, ****Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21).

**That’s what the Bible teaches - not the Calvinist view.

“24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes”

What are we remembering here? The God-man Jesus Christ bearing the sin of His elect, the one’s the Father has given to the Son, and drinking the cup of God’s wrath due to His elect.

Only the elect can understand this according to the Holy Holy Holy Trinity. Are you part of God’s elect is the question people need to be asking themselves and how do you know. 1 John chapters 1 7 2 give the tests. Paul says in Romans that the Holy Spirit will testify to our spirit that we are sons of God; it this true…every bit of it.

**Jesus took upon himself the sins of the WORLD (John 1:29) - not just you and those YOU deem to be the “elect”. There you go again mistaking Redemption and Salvation. A rather common blunder by those who lean on their *own *understanding and not God’s (Proverbs 3:5). **
Those who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16) .

 

[JackVk]

Scripture is the written part of Tradition. I recommend the book Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths. It is full of Bible quotes that soundly support Catholic doctrine, and it uses the King James and Revised Standard Versions, so not to be biased.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Transubstantiation of any bread into the flesh of Jesus is not found in Scripture

Well, that depends on what the meaning of the word “is”… is.

And have you read this Scripture?
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

The only pure offering is Christ Jesus. How exactly is the prophet saying that we will offer Jesus in every time and place if Calvary transpired in one place and at one time? We’ll see.

and Jesus “Bread of Life” Sermon gives us the figurative comparison between the manna from heaven that feed the physical body versus the true manna which feeds the spiritual soul.

You are relying on this Scripture:
[BIBLEDRB]John 6:64[/BIBLEDRB]

Now, is Jesus saying that HIS Flesh is of no avail for our salvation, or is he referring to THE flesh of sinful man? If HIS Flesh is of no avail, then what was the point of Calvary?

Very similar to the Samaritan woman who said give me that “life-giving water” so that i don’t have come here anymore to drawl water. Of course the Lord was speaking of the spiritual wellspring that is in Him alone versus the water from Jacob’s well where the physical body will need to continue to come.

Or was He talking about this:

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:36[/BIBLEDRB]

Not real hard to discern and Paul, who was not even at the inauguration of the Lord’s Supper, confirms the same.

Baloney.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 10:16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 11:23-29[/BIBLEDRB]

The phrase from the Lord Himself cannot be any clearer “Do this in remembrance” Do what? break the bread? Remember what? My sacrifice…

Remember this?
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

to bear the sins of My people and drink the cup of God’s wrath as the due penalty that the elect of God deserved, but it is only the elect that can understand according to Scripture.

Only the elect, eh? Pastrami.
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 16:15-16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Apocalypse 20:12-13[/BIBLEDRB]

Sola Scriptura keeps one from error from the things of men mingled with Scripture, the pure word of God, that are contrary to the teaching of Scripture. Not all traditions of men are contrary to the Scripture and should be accepted, but that which fails the test is to be rejected, which is another indication of Sola Scriptura; the measure of all things in the faith and practice of sheep of God.

Pepperoni.
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 3:6[/BIBLEDRB]

Why do you think so many of you believe Matthew 18 is spoken only to His disciples, when there was a little child right their for the Lord to use as an example and the many words and teachings in that chapter are so similar to the Sermon on the Mount?

It does not say, “tell it to the little child and whatever the child binds on earth is bound in heaven.” It says to tell it to the Church:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:17-18[/BIBLEDRB]

Because if it taught to a crowd, then Matthew 16 and the loose and bind becomes universal to all disciples and not just to the apostles; kind of kills the whole notion of the supremacy of Peter.

Salami. You’re reading a contradiction into Scripture that doesn’t exist, and I hate to tell you this, but God does not contradict Himself.

But the point is that sticking to Scripture one realizes that the authority to loose and bind, a rabbinic teaching, comes from heaven through the giving of the Gospel, which the royal priesthood is called to do. Those who hear will accept or reject the Gospel and either be loosed or bound in their sins upon the hearing of the message sent from heaven.

I thought you were a Sola Scriptura fan, and now you’re telling us to accept rabbinical tradition. What a cheesy interpretation to go with the baloney, salami, pastrami, pepperoni… hey, but you’re a very good cook!

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Eq_it-na_pizza-margherita_sep2005_sml.jpg/220px-Eq_it-na_pizza-margherita_sep2005_sml.jpg
(Pizza pic by Valerio Capello. CC-BY/SA.)

 

[elvisman]

Transubstantiation of any bread into the flesh of Jesus is not found in Scripture and Jesus “Bread of Life” Sermon gives us the figurative comparison between the manna from heaven that feed the physical body versus the true manna which feeds the spiritual soul.

Very similar to the Samaritan woman who said give me that “life-giving water” so that i don’t have come here anymore to drawl water. Of course the Lord was speaking of the spiritual wellspring that is in Him alone versus the water from Jacob’s well where the physical body will need to continue to come.

Wrong again - this is getting old . . .

**I always find it amusing when people use these silly comparisons to nullify what Jesus said. **Jesus offering the woman at the well “life-giving water” is not the same as speaking of his own flesh and blood.

Others use John 10:9 when Jesus says, "I am the door" or John 15:5 where he says, "I am the vine" to show that Jesus was also speaking metaphorically in John 6 (the Bread of Life discourse).

**Big difference with ALL of these, friend: Jesus isn’t a door, or a vine or a glass of water. He was FLESH and BLOOD and that is exactly what he was speaking of in John 6. **

John even used a hyperbolic Greek word for “eat”. The normal word for human eating is Phagon - but that was not the word he used. John uses the word Trogon (to gnarl, to gnaw or munch as an animal eats). He was driving home the point that we are to consume His flesh - as the Jews were to consume the flesh of the Paschal Lamb.

I find it a tragedy that the fruits of the Protestant Revolt are the rejection of the very words of God it purports to uphold as the “final authority” . . .

 

[Vicki_Leigh]

steve b,
I started with the eastern church due to personal interest in Russia and the Orthodox church. So I’ve read some Orthodox apologetics that quote a number of the eastern church fathers. I’ve also read some of St Augustine’s writings and a bit about St Thomas Aquinas. Much of what I’ve learned has been references to early church fathers in Catholic apologetics books.

 

[Pat_De]

Pat,

"Then Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily I say to unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him John 6:53-56 KJV

as you can see, this was not something that was thought up in Rome. It was and is an order from Our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a metaphor, very common use in rabbinic teaching and Jesus did it often.

13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

Same use of language and exact same outcome.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Same metaphoric language and same results. Thank God Paul cleared up the Lord’s Supper for the discerning.

**58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever." **

Same metaphor as with the woman at Jacob’s well; only the well water like the manna in the wilderness filled the stomach; whereas those who believe and abide in Him and Him in them will have eternal life. If you only were able to be granted by God understanding.

Here is a longer one:
**2 "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. {Jesus is describing many of you}7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

In case you still don’t get it; He repeats it another way for the dull of hearing:
1**4 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.{So much for Peter or the concept of the Pope} 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” **

Still in the dark…pun intended

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

How about another one?

**5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. **

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" – This one is not as metaphoric, but combines both.

**If you haven’t noticed all of these or in the Book of John; so the entire book is chuck-full of this metaphoric language in describing Jesus a the Way, the Truth and the Life…amen.**P.S. Cannibalism is forbidden in Scripture and Jesus does not contradict Himself; only men do,

 

[Pat_De]

And to be steeped in Jesus Christ is to be a Christian who does not pervert His Words.

So why do you keep doing it? You only bring wrath upon yourself; do you not fear God; I do!

You can’t give a single instance where I have perverted the word of God, but out of your mouth speaks your heart and you need the Great Physician to break up that rock-hard heart.

 

[JackVk]

It is a metaphor, very common use in rabbinic teaching and Jesus did it often.

**13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; **14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

Same use of language and exact same outcome.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Same metaphoric language and same results. Thank God Paul cleared up the Lord’s Supper for the discerning.

58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

Same metaphor as with the woman at Jacob’s well; only the well water like the manna in the wilderness filled the stomach; whereas those who believe and abide in Him and Him in them will have eternal life. If you only were able to be granted by God understanding.

Here is a longer one:
***2 "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. {Jesus is describing many of you}***7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

In case you still don’t get it; He repeats it another way for the dull of hearing:
14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.{So much for Peter or the concept of the Pope} 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Still in the dark…pun intended

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

How about another one?

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" – This one is not as metaphoric, but combines both.

**If you haven’t noticed all of these or in the Book of John; so the entire book is chuck-full of this metaphoric language in describing Jesus a the Way, the Truth and the Life…amen.**P.S. Cannibalism is forbidden in Scripture and Jesus does not contradict Himself; only men do,

You’re not proving" anything to me. In fact, you are contradicting yourself. Read what elvisman said:
Big difference with ALL of these, friend: Jesus isn’t a door, or a vine or a glass of water. He was FLESH and BLOOD and that is exactly what He was speaking of in John 6.

Jesus obviously wasn’t contradicting Himself. Why? Because Jesus is God in the flesh. It would be cannibalism if Jesus were only a mere man. But no, He God in human form.

John 6:61 “When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured at it, He said unto them, ‘Doth this offend you’?”. Note that Jesus needed no explanation of any “symbolism”, because there were doubters in His midst who “From that time, many of His disciples went back, and followed Him no more”.

 

[Pat_De]

There is no mincing of words here – the ECF’s were unanimous in their belief of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Mass, Confessing one’s sins to a priest, Baptismal Regeneration and a host of other doctrines you reject.

Unfortunately for you that you don’t realize how Catholic Jesus is. His love is universal and eternal. He is so Catholic that he identified his very self with his Catholic Church in Acts 9:4-5.
You’re missing the boat, friend.

I find it even more interesting that after 1500** years of ardent faith, scripture and Tradition – a group of rebellious men decided to reinvent Christianity. They took the Apostolic teachings carried on by the Early Church Fathers, tossed them aside, mixed in a twisting of the Scriptures (2 Pet. 3:16) and voila! A ****NEW **Christianity – complete with the doctrines and precepts of mere men (Matt. 15:9, Mark 7:7).

---

Don’t you find that curious? I certainly** do . . .**

All ecf’s in your imagination were unanimous, but because you said it; it must be all true so who can argue with the god in the mirror?

No, Jesus is the Captain of my ship; the Pope is the captain of your ship.

God used the reformation to bring back His true Gospel; but being evil as men are, the reformed churches are hard to come by and replaced with liberalism; just as is happening in your church.

Speaking of which; have you ever answered what is the true church and how do you know?

Jesus loves everyone, probably explains why most are headed straight to hell because He hates sin and sinners. If not for election, no one would be in heaven according to Romans 3 beginning in verse 9, which was taken from Isaiah…try reading it; it describes all of us except Elvis. You might even want to read Proverbs 6 and see what an abomination a man is in the sight of God; except you Elvis.

Here is what my Captain has to say; notice how He dismisses your captain.

**14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd. **

 

[Pat_De]

Hello Everyone and anyone; may the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings bless each of you unto Salvation!

I got to page 11; so for those who did not receive a reply; I apologize, but when people become slanderous; it has a tendency to escalate, then all of us fall into sin, which is not good nor pleasing to the Lord.

But I do want to answer the question about the true church, which has a single shepherd as John 10 explicitly tells His sheep.

The answer is found in that great book of Romans in that monumental chapter 8:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

You see His true church is yet to be revealed because they are the “elect” of God; given by the Father to the Son as the Scripture teaches, which John 17 comes to mind immediately. So for any “church” to make the claim it is the true church does not tell the truth and fails one of the tests of a true Christian as 1John chapters 1 and 2 give to us by the Lord so that the “elect” may know. I do believe God has a few of His “elect” in the Catholic church, the Eastern orthodox, the Mormons & the “Prosperity” churches, but I can’t be dogmatic because the “elect” have yet to be revealed.

God blesses!
Pat

 

[JackVk]

All ecf’s in your imagination were unanimous, but because you said it; it must be all true so who can argue with the god in the mirror?

No, Jesus is the Captain of my ship; the Pope is the captain of your ship.

God used the reformation to bring back His true Gospel; but being evil as men are, the reformed churches are hard to come by and replaced with liberalism; just as is happening in your church.

Speaking of which; have you ever answered what is the true church and how do you know?

Jesus loves everyone, probably explains why most are headed straight to hell because He hates sin and sinners. If not for election, no one would be in heaven according to Romans 3 beginning in verse 9, which was taken from Isaiah…try reading it; it describes all of us except Elvis. You might even want to read Proverbs 6 and see what an abomination a man is in the sight of God; except you Elvis.

Here is what my Captain has to say; notice how He dismisses your captain.

14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.

Matthew 16:18-19 "and I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build by church; and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. And I will give unto theethe keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose shall be loosed in heaven

Jesus is our Supreme Commander. Peter and his chair (the Pope) is the Field Marshal. Deny this passage and you might as well deny the whole Gospel. Jesus pointed out that salvation is not guaranteed:

“Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" Matt. 7:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have recieved the knowledge of truth, there remaineth in more sacrifice for sins… Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26,29

 

[Cat_Herder]

It is a metaphor, very common use in rabbinic teaching and Jesus did it often.

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 7:7-9[/BIBLEDRB]

**13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; **14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

This is the water he’s referring to.

[BIBLEDRB]John 19:34[/BIBLEDRB]

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Same metaphor as with the woman at Jacob’s well; only the well water like the manna in the wilderness filled the stomach; whereas those who believe and abide in Him and Him in them will have eternal life.

To “eat” doesn’t mean to “believe” because to believe alone does not guarantee eternal life.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mt 19:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Jn 14:21[/BIBLEDRB]
"If you only were able to be granted by God understanding.:
And how do you know that you understand?

[BIBLEDRB]2 Pet 1:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Pet 3:15-16[/BIBLEDRB]

Here is a longer one:
***2 "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. {Jesus is describing many of you}***7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

In case you still don’t get it; He repeats it another way for the dull of hearing:
14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.{So much for Peter or the concept of the Pope} 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

John 10:16 says the sheep-door is a figure of speech. Show me a verse that expressly declares the Eucharist to be a figure of speech.

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.

He is actually Light, just like His Flesh is actually food.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Jn 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

This is a straightforward figure of speech that Paul explains later on (Romans 11.17ff). Where is the explanation for the Eucharist? Right here, and it ain’t symbolic.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:27-32[/BIBLEDRB]

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" – This one is not as metaphoric, but combines both.

See above for the problems with your out-of-context interpretation.

**If you haven’t noticed all of these or in the Book of John; so the entire book is chuck-full of this metaphoric language in describing Jesus a the Way, the Truth and the Life…amen.**P.S. Cannibalism is forbidden in Scripture and Jesus does not contradict Himself; only men do,

Hmm… where have I heard this before.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:59-65[/BIBLEDRB]
And the next verse is…

John 6:66: Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him.

Notice the chapter and verse number.

 

[elvisman]

All ecf’s in your imagination were unanimous, but because you said it; it must be all true so who can argue with the god in the mirror?

Then NAME some ECF’s that didn’t believe in the Real Presence. Please enlighten me . . .

No, Jesus is the Captain of my ship; the Pope is the captain of your ship.

*Ummmm . . . no. * Jesus is the OWNER of the ship (Church) and he appointed Peter the Captain (Matt. 6:15-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-17).

---

**This is something that you can continue to deny – but it doesn’t make it any less true because YOU reject it. It’s just *another * truth that you disagree with God on.
**

God used the reformation to bring back His true Gospel; but being evil as men are, the reformed churches are hard to come by and replaced with liberalism; just as is happening in your church.

God allowed the Protestant Rebellion to happen for the same reason he allows all sin to exist: Free Will.

---

He allows us to screw up, yet he wills that we will choose HIS way in the end. Unfortunately, many don’t.
Many chose to embrace the traditions and precepts of flawed men like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli – instead of the Traditions and precepts of God.

Speaking of which; have you ever answered what is the true church and how do you know?

Because I can trace my Church back to the Apostles - YOU can’t. Yours can only go back to the foundations laid by flawed, rebellious men.

Jesus loves everyone, probably explains why most are headed straight to hell because He hates sin and sinners. If not for election, no one would be in heaven according to Romans 3 beginning in verse 9, which was taken from Isaiah…try reading it; it describes all of us except Elvis. You might even want to read Proverbs 6 and see what an abomination a man is in the sight of God; except you Elvis.

**Jesus doesn’t hate sinners. Where do you get that garbage from? That is a total perversion of Scripture. Read John 3:16 slowly and let it sink in. **

---

**God LOVES the world but hates sin. Jesus wouldn’t have suffered for the world if he didn’t love it. ALL are **REDEEMED (paid for). Hitler was redeemed. Charles Manson is redeemed. Ahmadenijad in Iran is redeemed. They may not all be saved but they were ALL paid for by Jesus. You continue to pervert scripture my heretical friend.

 

[elvisman]

Here is what my Captain has to say; notice how He dismisses your captain.

14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock{with} one shepherd.
Ay, ay, ay – you never learn do you?

**What did Jesus tell his Apostles? He gave THEM ALL of his authority on earth (Matt. 16:19, 18:15-18, John 20:21-23). De told them that the Holy Spirit would take from what was HIS and declare it to them (John 16:12-15). If you studied your OT, you would see the parallels from Matt. 16:19 and Isaiah 22:15-25. **

**BUT – as Jesus told those who rejected him because he told them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood in John 6:66 **- "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

Again – just because YOU reject the words of Jesus doesn’t make your position true. In fact, when you go up against God - it makes you dead wrong.

 

[elvisman]

It is a metaphor, very common use in rabbinic teaching and Jesus did it often.

13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

Same use of language and exact same outcome.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Same metaphoric language and same results. Thank God Paul cleared up the Lord’s Supper for the discerning.

***58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.” ***

Same metaphor as with the woman at Jacob’s well; only the well water like the manna in the wilderness filled the stomach; whereas those who believe and abide in Him and Him in them will have eternal life. If you only were able to be granted by God understanding.

Here is a longer one:
2 "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. {Jesus is describing many of you}[7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.[/COLOR]

In case you still don’t get it; He repeats it another way for the dull of hearing:
1***4 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.{So much for Peter or the concept of the Pope} 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” ***

Still in the dark…pun intended

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

How about another one?

***5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. ***

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" – This one is not as metaphoric, but combines both.

**If you haven’t noticed all of these or in the Book of John; so the entire book is chuck-full of this metaphoric language in describing Jesus a the Way, the Truth and the Life…amen.**P.S. Cannibalism is forbidden in Scripture and Jesus does not contradict Himself; only men do,
Umm, Pat - read post #166.
I already smashed all of these silly comparisons . . .

 

[JackVk]

Jesus loves everyone, probably explains why most are headed straight to hell because He hates sin and sinners. If not for election, no one would be in heaven according to Romans 3 beginning in verse 9, which was taken from Isaiah…try reading it; it describes all of us except Elvis. You might even want to read Proverbs 6 and see what an abomination a man is in the sight of God; except you Elvis.

“I have not come to call the righteous, but to call sinners” Luke 5:32. Once again, you ignore Scripture that doesn’t promote your interpretation. So much for predestination.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hello Everyone and anyone; may the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings bless each of you unto Salvation!

I got to page 11; so for those who did not receive a reply; I apologize, but when people become slanderous; it has a tendency to escalate, then all of us fall into sin, which is not good nor pleasing to the Lord.

But I do want to answer the question about the true church, which has a single shepherd as John 10 explicitly tells His sheep.

The answer is found in that great book of Romans in that monumental chapter 8:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

You see His true church is yet to be revealed because they are the “elect” of God; given by the Father to the Son as the Scripture teaches, which John 17 comes to mind immediately. So for any “church” to make the claim it is the true church does not tell the truth and fails one of the tests of a true Christian as 1John chapters 1 and 2 give to us by the Lord so that the “elect” may know. I do believe God has a few of His “elect” in the Catholic church, the Eastern orthodox, the Mormons & the “Prosperity” churches, but I can’t be dogmatic because the “elect” have yet to be revealed.

God blesses!
Pat

Yet to be revealed? it has been 2000 now, when is the Church going to be revealed? and when Jesus says, take it to the Church, when do we take to the Church?
are we without the Church for 2000 years? how about the Apostles, were they without the Church too?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic approach to Scripture is that we see it as a whole, all and every word inter related to each other…

So an individual getting hold of the Bible and then re-interpreting with very limited context is in a very different place from a Catholic…and then you get the disagreements.

This disagreeing and constant contention is not the mark of oneness that Christ was always praying for regarding us.