The Early Christians were Sola Scriptura

[KathleenGee]

People are not recognizing it is the Holy Spirit who is guiding and teaching the Church through its administrators…it is not men acting on their own whimsy or convictions. They are drawing on the tradition of transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit from the Apostles.

I always thought it was a great blessing that Christians were now able to publicly worship and identify their beliefs…

 

[KathleenGee]

When Pilate asked Jesus Who He was, He answered He is the truth.

The truth is not a literal word…it has a moral value that can only be expressed in a human being.

And as we are all imperfect and sin, only one person can say He is truth, flesh, incarnate…and that is Jesus.

‘Veritatis Splendor’…The Splendor of Truth’…by John Paul II…about the rich young man who comes to Jesus and asks how he can follow Him…he fulfills the commandments…honors his parents, does not lie or steal…Christ says to follow Him one must renounce all possessions.

So growing more in Christ requires more than reading and reflecting and meditating on His word…we must also detach ourselves from possessions and draw on the life that is in Christ…His Body and Blood…Word and Body and Blood…the two are inseparable of What Truth is…

 

[elvisman]

Actually, several things are called the truth but the Church is not one of them

God’s law Psalm 119:142
God’s commandments Psalm 119:151
God’s word John 17:17
The Spirit 1 John 5:6

In Timothy the Church is called the pillar and foundation **of **the truth, not the truth.

Sy -
God’s Law, God’s commands, God’s Word ALL encompass the same thing: GOD.

John 1:1 tells us that Jesus (God) is the Word. The Spirit (1 John 5:6) is God. Everything you presented is in reference to GOD.

What was the claim I made? I’ll say it again:
Only TWO entities in ALL of Scripture (OT & NT) are referred to as the TRUTH:
God and his Church (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[KathleenGee]

What I see all the time here is the great disconnect between Christians having to live underground, or worship in secret, and how that kept the public church from being openly constructed. The Christians from the beginning who were not part of the Great Heresy – denying the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, had the readings from the Word of God and the breaking of the bread through the bishop or presbyter/priest.

St. Justin the Martyr was asked by the Roman Emperor in his time to explain what happened the gatherings, formerly called ‘The Secret’.

When our practice of faith became legal, it facilitated more formal and open councils…
,
Then there was another slow down when the barbarians came to destroy and plunder the Roman Empire – the Dark Ages. Even some bishops and clerics became soldiers to protect and preserve Christian populations.

 

[PRmerger]

Scripture is the word of God.

Amen.

John 17:17 says God’s word is truth, so Scripture is truth.

Amen.

The Church may or may not teach truth depending on whether you accept the Catholic Church’s claim…

So, then, which church teaches the truth, of the thousands of denominations with differing–and sometimes contradictory proclamations of this “truth”?

I’ve often heard non-Catholic Christians say that there is no church that teaches the fullness of truth. How sad to live one’s life with such little faith! To think that Christ was unable to start a church which guards and proclaims this truth.

This is an impotent and impoverished church if one cannot know it’s proclaiming the truth. :sad_yes:

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Actually, several things are called the truth but the Church is not one of them

God’s law Psalm 119:142
God’s commandments Psalm 119:151
God’s word John 17:17
The Spirit 1 John 5:6

In Timothy the Church is called the pillar and foundation **of **the truth, not the truth.

A pillar and a foundation are used to hold up a building. These words were intentionally used by Paul to show the supportive nature of the church. IOW the church suupports the Word or holds it up to the world.

However you say.

Scripture is the word of God. John 17:17 says God’s word is truth, so Scripture is truth. **The Church may or may not teach truth depending on whether you accept the Catholic Church’s claim… **

The truth is the truth. It is never subject to whether or not we accept it. I would agree with you if you say according to your logical progression that the church may or may not teach the truth depending on whether or not it teaches according to the word of God.

 

[Cat_Herder]

A pillar and a foundation are used to hold up a building. These words were intentionally used by Paul to show the supportive nature of the church. IOW the church suupports the Word or holds it up to the world.

God’s Word is Jesus. The Church is His Body.

The Bible is only the written portion of the Word. In fact, the Bible never identifies itself as the Word of God, with 2 Tim 3:16 being the closest it gets (“All Scripture is inspired by God” etc.) But it does not say that only Scripture is inspired by God.

The Bible repeatedly tells Christians to be of one mind about doctrine. The apostles are depicted as passing their authority on to other men (Titus is largely about this). Disputes are supposed to be taken to the Church, not the Bible.

Please be careful not to put the Holy Spirit in a box. He doesn’t have to choose between inspiring the Church and inspiring the Bible.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The Bible is only the written portion of the Word. In fact, the Bible never identifies itself as the Word of God, with 2 Tim 3:16 being the closest it gets (“All Scripture is inspired by God” etc.)

Is this not a contradictory statement? First you say the bible “never identifies itself as the Word of God,” Then you say “with 2 Tim 3:16 being the closest it gets (“All Scripture is inspired by God” etc.)” Here’s 2 Tim.3:16.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This isn’t close Cat. This is telling us flat out that scripture, all scripture, is inspired by God. So much for your first statement. Then you say

But it does not say that only Scripture is inspired by God.

The Bible repeatedly tells Christians to be of one mind about doctrine. The apostles are depicted as passing their authority on to other men (Titus is largely about this). Disputes are supposed to be taken to the Church, not the Bible.

Please be careful not to put the Holy Spirit in a box. He doesn’t have to choose between inspiring the Church and inspiring the Bible.

The bible does tell us to be of one mind, but it doesn’t tell us that anything other than the word of God is inspired by God.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Is this not a contradictory statement? First you say the bible “never identifies itself as the Word of God,”

I said it never calls itself the Word of God. That is an inference drawn by you, a man, from 2 Tim 3:16.

This isn’t close Cat. This is telling us flat out that scripture, all scripture, is inspired by God. So much for your first statement.

For sola scriptura to be true you need for it to say ONLY Scripture is inspired by God. It doesn’t say that. And…

The bible does tell us to be of one mind, but it doesn’t tell us that anything other than the word of God is inspired by God.

[BIBLEDRB]John 20:20-22[/BIBLEDRB]

To inspire literally means to breathe upon. Ask Webster.

 

[Nicea325]

Is this not a contradictory statement? First you say the bible “never identifies itself as the Word of God,” Then you say “with 2 Tim 3:16 being the closest it gets (“All Scripture is inspired by God” etc.)” Here’s 2 Tim.3:16.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This isn’t close Cat. This is telling us flat out that scripture, all scripture, is inspired by God. So much for your first statement. Then you say

The bible does tell us to be of one mind, but it doesn’t tell us that anything other than the word of God is inspired by God.

No one is denying that Scripture is inspired by God. The problem with the bogus doctrine Sola Scriptura is that no where does scripture even teach it. More important, scripture never states either that everything God ever said and did is binded to written words alone. Likewise, the bible never states that God’s Word is only the written word. Finally, Christ founded a church,not a Bible and Christianity is NOT a book-only faith. Are we Jews? Muslims? Christianity is a faith of the person: Jesus Christ,not a book.

 

[elvisman]

A pillar and a foundation are used to hold up a building. These words were intentionally used by Paul to show the supportive nature of the church. IOW the church suupports the Word or holds it up to the world.

However you say.

The truth is the truth. It is never subject to whether or not we accept it. I would agree with you if you say according to your logical progression that the church may or may not teach the truth depending on whether or not it teaches according to the word of God.

**Richard - let’s suppose you are right. Let’s say that the Church is simply the “supporter” of God’s truth.

****HOW, then, can it also support *LIES?

*****God cannot contradict himself. To believe this is nothing but good, old-fashioned heresy . . .

 

[Dokimas]

Richard - let’s suppose you are right. Let’s say that the Church is simply the “supporter” of God’s truth.

HOW, then, can it also support *LIES?

*God cannot contradict himself. To believe this is nothing but good, old-fashioned *heresy *. . .

The church is not God. Unlike God, it can contradict.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The church is not God. Unlike God, it can contradict.

Paul of Tarsus heard otherwise.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice it is “Me” that is persecuted. Not the church.

 

[Dokimas]

Paul of Tarsus heard otherwise.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice it is “Me” that is persecuted. Not the church.

Sure Jesus identifies with those that make up His Body.

 

[simspt]

The bible does tell us to be of one mind, but it doesn’t tell us that anything other than the word of God is inspired by God.

Many Church writings were viewed as inspired including non-canonical writings, councils etc. It was the Church that recognized which were unique to be set apart from the others based on multiple criteria inspiration being one but many would argue not even the primary criteria.

 

[Todd520]

Paul of Tarsus heard otherwise.

Notice it is “Me” that is persecuted. Not the church.

Now CH, you are comparing apples and oranges

Persecuting a Christian, or in fact any child of God can be seen as an attack on the father. It’s not limited to church affiliation

Churches are made up of Men, and men sin and contradict themselves. I think it’s important to not hold the sins of men in the church against God personally.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Now CH, you are comparing apples and orange … Churches are made up of Men, and men sin and contradict themselves. I think it’s important to not hold the sins of men in the church against God personally.

Actually, sin and error in teaching are apples and oranges. No one claims that the Church is impeccable (unable to sin).

Peter, for example, denied Christ on many occasions. But he still got the keys and the order to tend the sheep.

Let me put it to you this way. Christ promised to remain with the Church and that the gates of hell would not prevail over the Church. Either Christ is still with the Church or we can throw out the whole Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

No one is denying that Scripture is inspired by God. The problem with the bogus doctrine Sola Scriptura is that no where does scripture even teach it. More important, scripture never states either that everything God ever said and did is binded to written words alone. Likewise, the bible never states that God’s Word is only the written word. Finally, Christ founded a church,not a Bible and Christianity is NOT a book-only faith. Are we Jews? Muslims? Christianity is a faith of the person: Jesus Christ,not a book.

Indeed.

Not to mention that the verse “all Scripture is inspired by God” does not state what constitutes this Scripture. One needs something outside of Scripture–that is, the Church–to proclaim this Truth.

Without the Church one must succumb to begging the question. That is, circular reasoning. “I know it is Scripture because it is inspired” and “I know it’s inspired because it’s in Scripture.”

No non-Catholic Christian has ever been able to tell me how he knows that this verse:
“My breath is offensive to my wife” is* theopneustos, without an outside authority telling him it is theopneustos.*

BTW, we know that that verse, found in Job, is indeed inspired because…

it was revealed to

a bunch of

Catholic bishops

not through

Scripture…

but through…

Tradition.

It was the CC which decided that the OT ought to be contained in the Sacred Scriptures and not dismissed.

There were a few folks running around who thought that because of the New Covenant the OT writings ought to be disregarded.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No one is denying that Scripture is inspired by God. The problem with the bogus doctrine Sola Scriptura is that no where does scripture even teach it. More important, scripture never states either that everything God ever said and did is binded to written words alone. Likewise, the bible never states that God’s Word is only the written word. Finally, Christ founded a church,not a Bible and Christianity is NOT a book-only faith. Are we Jews? Muslims? Christianity is a faith of the person: Jesus Christ,not a book.

I’m glad to hear that Nicea. So, if we agree that scripture is God breathed, inspired, why are we having this conversation? The things we need to know for our salvation are contained within it’s pages ie

Rom.3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Nicea, if you believe these words found in Paul’s letter to the Romans and there are many similar passages throughout the bible. If you believe these and are assured of eternal life through your belief in the sacrifice of Christ. What more is there that is extra biblical that you feel is essential?

 

[PRmerger]

What more is there that is extra biblical that you feel is essential?

How 'bout the fact that the Gospel of Matthew is inspired but the Gospel of Thomas is not?

Don’t you feel that’s essential to know?

And, of course, that’s an extra-biblical discernment that was revealed…

not through Scripture…

but

through

Sacred Tradition.