The Early Church Fathers Protestant-Style

[Little_Mary]

I am just learning about the Early Church Fathers and came across an article on another website which respond to a protestant’s view of the Early Church Fathers and how in his opinion, they were proponents of sola scriptura, NOT tradition, as is really the case. I found this fascinating.

Has anyone ever encountered, or been in discussions with, people who are convinced that the Early Fathers were, in fact, pro sola scriptura and not Catholic?

 

[NotWorthy]

Yeah, I think myfavoritemartin on this site has posited that theory. It strikes me as almost an oxymoron, since the Church waited almost 400 years before settling on the Canon.

You would think a Sola Scriptura based Church would define the Canon right out of the blocks.

 

[NotWorthy]

I was listening to a talk on my MP3 player the other day and I came across an interesting comment made by St. Jerome on the individual interpretation of Scripture. I know I’m going to butcher the statement, but you should get the general gist. “Scholars learn from their teachers, stonecutter’s learn from their guildmasters, and carpenters learn from their instructors. But it seems that the art of Scriptural Interpretation is the only thing that is self-taught”. I don’t think our good Jerome was being complementary when he said this.

 

[kwortham]

All of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Father’s I have read quoted scripture constantly. Even though I am still reading through a thirty eight volume set of these fathers, I have yet to find where any of them taught Sola Scriptura. To the contrary, their writings revere both tradition and scripture. Below is an example from St. Irenaeus 175AD, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 5, paragraph 1:

“Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him.”

They project the idea that tradition and scripture are bound together in unity and cannot be separated. In other words, they view scripture and tradition as inseparable like unto the Holy Trinity being inseparable.

 

[Salvatore123]

James White, of Alpha and Omega Ministries, is, in my opinion, one of the more “successful” debaters in his use of citing early Church Fathers such as Augustine, when arguing against certain Catholic teachings or practices.

Unfortunately, most Catholic apologetic debaters (and you can see them on Youtube) are HORRIBLE in defending their positions and they are sometimes downright rude and meanspirited. This is often the result of poor preparation/study. They think that if they argue a point loudly, that will make their point correct. Unfortunately, it often makes their point simply wrong in a loud manner

As a trial attorney who has tried over 100 cases in almost 20 years, I can say without hesitation that more cases are lost because of ill preparation than because of the cause or the facts. I have seen the same hold true when I watch debates on Youtube between protestants and many catholic apologists.

 

[Medic_Mark]

As a trial attorney who has tried over 100 cases in almost 20 years, .

Is that a lot in your field?

Augustine was revered at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Eye of the beholder, I guess. I find it rather ironic because Augustine was either a heretic or a sound teacher and the evidence is very clear that his contemporaries, who are clearly Catholic, did not think him off his rocker.

 

[Little_Mary]

I was listening to a talk on my MP3 player the other day and I came across an interesting comment made by St. Jerome on the individual interpretation of Scripture. I know I’m going to butcher the statement, but you should get the general gist. “Scholars learn from their teachers, stonecutter’s learn from their guildmasters, and carpenters learn from their instructors. But it seems that the art of Scriptural Interpretation is the only thing that is self-taught”. I don’t think our good Jerome was being complementary when he said this.

I don’t think so either. You go, St. Jerome!

 

[Little_Mary]

James White, of Alpha and Omega Ministries, is, in my opinion, one of the more “successful” debaters in his use of citing early Church Fathers such as Augustine, when arguing against certain Catholic teachings or practices.

Unfortunately, most Catholic apologetic debaters (and you can see them on Youtube) are HORRIBLE in defending their positions and they are sometimes downright rude and meanspirited. This is often the result of poor preparation/study. They think that if they argue a point loudly, that will make their point correct. Unfortunately, it often makes their point simply wrong in a loud manner

As a trial attorney who has tried over 100 cases in almost 20 years, I can say without hesitation that more cases are lost because of ill preparation than because of the cause or the facts. I have seen the same hold true when I watch debates on Youtube between protestants and many catholic apologists.

That’s just the thing. I feel compelled to defend my faith. It is a strong feeling. However, when in the middle of a discussion, I want to know my material well enough to KNOW how my “opponent” (for lack of a better term) will respond. I am trying to learn more, but there seems to be so much and I cannot make it a full time job…wish I could!..but I can’t = frustration!!

 

[CastingCrown]

In my experience, it is indeed very rare that you encounter a Protestant who (a) knows who the fathers actually are (b) has read some of their writings and (c) tries to argue that they were proto-protestants.

On the odd occasion I have encountered this, it has always been because they take a quotation speaking of the authority of Scripture and then assume that the author is speaking of the authority of Scripture to the exclusion of all other authority. It comes from sticking that pesky word “alone” in places where it doesn’t belong…

 

[TimothyH]

I am just learning about the Early Church Fathers and came across an article on another website which respond to a protestant’s view of the Early Church Fathers and how in his opinion, they were proponents of sola scriptura, NOT tradition, as is really the case. I found this fascinating.

Not surprising. If Scripture can be used to prove sola scriptura, why not Augustine, Polycarp or Justin Martyr?

The Protestants I know, mostly non-denominational Evangelicals, dismiss the Church fathers as not inspired and therefor not relevant as soon as the subject is brought up. It’s just me and Jesus and the Bible.

I recently had a Methodist friend say “Yea, I gotta start reading some of the Church fathers.” I thought to myself, “Ooooh boy, were gonna need to consecrate an extra host!”

-Tim-

 

[Salvatore123]

Do any of you find it odd that the “hardcore protestant anti-catholics” almost always discount everything religious that does not come out of the Bible, but they will accept at face value everything else they are taught about history from a history book used in high school or college?

“Funny” how they can accept dubious “histories” of the supposed atrocities committed by Catholics during the Crusades and prior to the Protestant Revolt (I refuse to call it the “Reformation” because Luther and his ilk did not want to reform anything - they wanted, and achieved, a complete break with Rome; that is revolt in my book), which necessarily must come from historical sources other than the Bible, but they won’t give the same “courtesy” to Catholic Sacred Tradition . . .

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

Not surprising. If Scripture can be used to prove sola scriptura, why not Augustine, Polycarp or Justin Martyr?

The Protestants I know, mostly non-denominational Evangelicals, dismiss the Church fathers as not inspired and therefor not relevant as soon as the subject is brought up. It’s just me and Jesus and the Bible.

I recently had a Methodist friend say “Yea, I gotta start reading some of the Church fathers.” I thought to myself, “Ooooh boy, were gonna need to consecrate an extra host!”

-Tim-

Yeah, exactly! What got me on my Catholic path was reading “Early Christian Writings” from Penguin classics and now look at me, I’m coming into the Church this year. I think if the historicity of a Church is important to you, then being Catholic is the the place to be because there is no other Church that has such a rich and deep history as us Catholics.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yeah, exactly! What got me on my Catholic path was reading “Early Christian Writings” from Penguin classics and now look at me, I’m coming into the Church this year. I think if the historicity of a Church is important to you, then being Catholic is the the place to be because there is no other Church that has such a rich and deep history as us Catholics.

What’s ironic about that is, if I recall correctly, the commentary on the Penguin Classics book is decidedly Protestant. And yet there are numerous people like you who read these and decided to become Catholic.

 

[Katoriku_Rant]

What’s ironic about that is, if I recall correctly, the commentary on the Penguin Classics book is decidedly Protestant. And yet there are numerous people like you who read these and decided to become Catholic.

That’s the beauty of Catholic teaching- even when people attempt to twist it into something it isn’t, the beauty of Truth still shines through.

 

[TimothyH]

Yeah, exactly! What got me on my Catholic path was reading “Early Christian Writings” from Penguin classics and now look at me, I’m coming into the Church this year. I think if the historicity of a Church is important to you, then being Catholic is the the place to be because there is no other Church that has such a rich and deep history as us Catholics.

Well put on the cassocks and strike up the choir! Alleluia!

I just ordered “Early Christian Writings” for my friend. Did I mention that he is a Methodist… Pastor!

-Tim-

 

[Newsy]

I just ordered “Early Christian Writings” for my friend. Did I mention that he is a Methodist… Pastor!

And you are going to ruin his occupation also?!?! Just kidding! As a protestant, I never looked to the fathers or even the deuterocanonical books. It was only after I started towards the Church that I saw any value in them. I know that is a common idea in protestant circles and it stems from pride and mis-information. It was the early fathers that started Scott Hahn on his journey, oddly enough it was Scott Hahn’s book that started mine!

 

[simspt]

Do any of you find it odd that the “hardcore protestant anti-catholics” almost always discount everything religious that does not come out of the Bible, but they will accept at face value everything else they are taught about history from a history book used in high school or college?

“Funny” how they can accept dubious “histories” of the supposed atrocities committed by Catholics during the Crusades and prior to the Protestant Revolt (I refuse to call it the “Reformation” because Luther and his ilk did not want to reform anything - they wanted, and achieved, a complete break with Rome; that is revolt in my book), which necessarily must come from historical sources other than the Bible, but they won’t give the same “courtesy” to Catholic Sacred Tradition . . .

J. Pelikan has pointed out also the peculiar fact that many Protestant scholars who acknowledege the role tradition played in influencing the Gospels and other NT writings where there arent any extant sources simultaneously tend to ignore much of the same tradition after the NT that includes a very large number of writings.

 

[MarcoPolo]

James White, of Alpha and Omega Ministries, is, in my opinion, one of the more “successful” debaters in his use of citing early Church Fathers such as Augustine, when arguing against certain Catholic teachings or practices.

I think too many Catholics try to measure White on the basis of how good they think a Catholic next to him debates rather on the basis of what White says. But frankly, I think a plethora of Catholics, including his debate opponents, have above and beyond shown White to be a poor theologian and apologist.

As for Augustine, it’s a lot easier to debunk White’s use of him when you have the time to look up just how falsely White presents Augustine.

 

[mark_a]

I am just learning about the Early Church Fathers and came across an article on another website which respond to a protestant’s view of the Early Church Fathers and how in his opinion, they were proponents of sola scriptura, NOT tradition, as is really the case. I found this fascinating.

I think it’s just wonderful that SS Protestants were around to preserve the works of the ECF.

 

[Little_Mary]

I think it’s just wonderful that SS Protestants were around to preserve the works of the ECF.