The Early Church Fathers

[JRKH]

I truly don’t understand how “and on this rock I will build my Church” translates into meaning that all the popes throughout the ages have infallibility or that they are Christ’s vicar here on earth. I understand it to mean that Peter would lead the disciples in the growth and development of the early Church. And I don’t get how “and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” translates into the Church not falling into errors in faith and morals, or ever making mistakes. To me, that means that it will never be destroyed.

Surely there would be other texts (perhaps in the Vatican library) where these meanings came from.

Through thick and thin, through good times and bad, God is always with us. So why would it be prove that God abandoned us if his followers made mistakes?

In the Douay-Rheims, John 14:15-16 reads:
[15] If you love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

And the footnote says this:" “Paraclete”… That is, a comforter: or also an advocate; inasmuch as by inspiring prayer, he prays, as it were, in us, and pleads for us. "

That means that someone would be advocating…but how does that mean that no one will have any misunderstandings, or make any mistakes, with regards to Church teachings?

No…because where two are gathered in his name, He is there. I believe he was speaking of the community he established. I don’t see how it reflects on the teachings of the Church though…

I say, no. Rather, to me, it would mean that humans, being mere humans, made a mistake in their interpretation of the message of the Holy Spirit.

But Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would teach the truth and guide the Church…it doesn’t say anything about mere humans not being able to understand incorrectly?

Ok, I admit, I don’t get those verses and how they apply to Church teachings and the infallibility of the Magisterium or Pope. And I can’t speak for everyone, but for me, I know Satan isn’t stronger than Jesus…that’s a no-brainer. For me, human errors are not a reflection on Jesus. They are a reflection on human weakness. **I don’t see any indication that Church leaders are granted any ‘superhuman’ powers to overcome their human shortcomings. I only see Jesus’ promise to be there when we need him, to guide us on our journey and to provide answers to our questions. Forgive me but that doesn’t mean, to me, that we as humans will always understand those answers correctly. And when we don’t…I can’t see how that means that Jesus broke His promise. That, I believe, is impossible. **

Maybe I’ll come across something that will help me understand better. But for now, I just don’t get it.

If I may jump in here for a bit…I’d like to address the bolded section above and perhaps give you something to consider in this regard.
As is being pointed out, God founded a Church and promised to guide same…But what is The Church? Church, or Ekklesia in greek, is a community. A community called out for some purpose (according to Strongs concordance). In our case we are called out by God to be a Holy people and to seek the Kingdom of God and glory to Him.

Does this automatically make all the individuals in said Church perfect? Of curse not. Does that mean that everyone will see everything in exactly the same way? Nope…
But this is where the great wisdom lies in Jesus’ founding, of a protected Church. Look at Mt 18:15-18 where Jesus says to “tell it to the Church” and to “listen to the church”. By bringing issues, sins, disagreements etc, prayerfully before the community (or trusted representatives of same), discussing and debating said issues in Charity and with the desire to discern the Will of God, the Church gains the advantage of many voices and many viewpoints. It is much easier for an individual to err than it is for the Church as a group.
Acts 15 gives an example of this. There arose a difference of view between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Each side was so convinced of the rightness of their position that not even St Paul himslef could find a way through it. So the matter was taken to “The Church”, in council at Jerusalem and only after much debate was a decision reached on the matter.

So - in short, my dear friend, no one is saying that individuals cannot err. But the Church, the Ekklesia, by placing God first, by taking council with each other, by seeking Gods will in charity, and by imploring the promised protection of the Holy Spirit, cannot Err in matters of faith and morals.

I hope this helps some

Peace
James

 

[Rence]

If I may jump in here for a bit…I’d like to address the bolded section above and perhaps give you something to consider in this regard.
As is being pointed out, God founded a Church and promised to guide same…But what is The Church? Church, or Ekklesia in greek, is a community. A community called out for some purpose (according to Strongs concordance). In our case we are called out by God to be a Holy people and to seek the Kingdom of God and glory to Him.

Does this automatically make all the individuals in said Church perfect? Of curse not. Does that mean that everyone will see everything in exactly the same way? Nope…
But this is where the great wisdom lies in Jesus’ founding, of a protected Church. Look at Mt 18:15-18 where Jesus says to “tell it to the Church” and to “listen to the church”. By bringing issues, sins, disagreements etc, prayerfully before the community (or trusted representatives of same), discussing and debating said issues in Charity and with the desire to discern the Will of God, the Church gains the advantage of many voices and many viewpoints. It is much easier for an individual to err than it is for the Church as a group.
Acts 15 gives an example of this. There arose a difference of view between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Each side was so convinced of the rightness of their position that not even St Paul himslef could find a way through it. So the matter was taken to “The Church”, in council at Jerusalem and only after much debate was a decision reached on the matter.

So - in short, my dear friend, no one is saying that individuals cannot err. But the Church, the Ekklesia, by placing God first, by taking council with each other, by seeking Gods will in charity, and by imploring the promised protection of the Holy Spirit, cannot Err in matters of faith and morals.

I hope this helps some

Peace
James

I agree that sometimes thinking things though in a group sometimes helps, rather than have one individual make the decisions. That’s why we have juries. However, even juries get hung, especially in difficult cases. In the end, someone has to compromise what they believe in to ‘close the case’. Have you ever been to a community meeting? If you have been to any decision-making meeting, you know there are those who staunchly believe one way, and those who staunchly believe another way, and those that are on the fence.

When I took part in a jury, there were 3 people who adamantly thought that the defendant was guilty, and wanted him convicted. There were a few of us who thought he might be guilty, but knew the lawyers did a terrible job collecting evidence. Then the others thought he was not guilty due to the lack of evidence. Our “simple” deliberations as we were told they were going to be, lasted six days. Finally, the judge said he was going to sequester us over the weekend, and the three people who adamantly wanted him convicted threw up their hands and said, “fine, he’s not guilty”.

Even groups of people called together to discuss a problem will disagree, and will disagree until the end, but someone has to cave in to demands of the group as a whole. That doesn’t make it true, or correct. It’s part of the failings of being human. It could very well be the Holy Spirit orchestrating it so that the “right” answer is given in the end — or NOT. Again, we’re only human. That defendent was guilty, I think everyone knew that…but the lawyers trying to prosecute him were morons and lost evidence, but tried to present it anyway. You cannot prosecute someone without proof of what they did, no matter what people “think”. Therefore he got off on a technicality. How many decisions are made based on technicalities or pressure to follow the guidelines set forth in the decision making process? What about erring on the side of caution because there are no clear answers? It’s not reasonable to think that doesn’t happen with the Magisterium. They cave in to the pressure of their peers, to their fears, to their own values and beliefs, just like anyone else.

When you see groups of Bishops together disagreeing on modern day problems. You know it can’t be as simple as getting a group together, rather than a single person, to avoid making mistakes. We don’t even know who the Magisterium or who the Pope’s advisors are…

 

[PJM]

I’ll jump in just to add a second opinion**.[With two Consecutive Post]**

I truly don’t understand how “and on this rock I will build my Church” translates into meaning that all the popes throughout the ages have infallibility or that they are Christ’s vicar here on earth. I understand it to mean that Peter would lead the disciples in the growth and development of the early Church. And I don’t get how “and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” translates into the Church not falling into errors in faith and morals, or ever making mistakes. To me, that means that it will never be destroyed. Surely there would be other texts (perhaps in the Vatican library) where these meanings came from.

There might be but such is not necessary. Let’s look at additional evidence as presented in the bible itself:

**2Tim.3: 16 to 17 **“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

**2ND. Peter 1: 16-21 **“For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.”

John 14: 16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John 17: 14-19 “Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

We see hear that the Bible as the Word Of God is protected from error. Then we see that Jesus sends the HS [God] to guide the CC “forever,” and to make it completely evident; Jesus GIVES Himself in Person to guarantee Her Truths on all matters of Faith and Morals ONLY

Through thick and thin, through good times and bad, God is always with us. So why would it be prove that God abandoned us if his followers made mistakes?

Yes, true, when speaking of the Crosses God gives us or permits us to give ourselves. BUT not when it comes to Mortal Sin **[1 Jn.5: 16-17]. **Mortal Sin is so serious that it breaks our Covenant relationship with God [Father; Son; and HS] until we repair it by repentance and Confession / Conversion of our hearts.

**Luke.5: 32 **“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." And Mark.6: 12 So they went out and preached that men should repent. Rom.10: 9-10 “because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.”

In the Douay-Rheims, John 14:15-16 reads:[15] If you love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. And the footnote says this:" “Paraclete”… That is, a comforter: or also an advocate; inasmuch as by inspiring prayer, he prays, as it were, in us, and pleads for us. "

That means that someone would be advocating…but how does that mean that no one will have any misunderstandings, or make any mistakes, with regards to Church teachings?

Please see the above Bible quotes: Allow me to explain them and there specific relevance to your concerns.

2nd. Tim affirms that the Bible Being in a real-sense, the very Word of God; MUST be true. **Then 2nd. Peter **Warns that self interpretation is at best a foolish practice, as the Bible is BOTH profound and complex. [That by itself explains why God desires Only one source to insure it’s truths.]

Then God anticipating your concern and the future problems self-understanding HAD TO CAUSE; made clear that God, The Holy Spirit; “will remain forever” to guide, guard, protect and insure the Truth of ALL CC Teachings on ALL matters of Both Faith and Morals; BUT ONLY on these two topic’s.** Simply put the CC cannot be in error; and can but need not teach “Infallibly” to do so.**

Adding an “exclamation -point of enormous proportions; by Giving Himself In Person as a further Guarantee of this FACT. Jesus insures that Error in teaching on these matters, is IMPOSSIBLE. [Jn.117:19].

What needs to understood; is that it is the Church as an entity founded by Christ; thus Christ Himself; that is being questioned when doubting this truth.

A comparison might be the Bible itself. Authored by Human hands; BUT; AND; inspired, guided, and directed by God Himself. In the very same way the Pope and Bishops in union with the Pope; teaching on Faith and or Morals cannot be in error, when teaching in an official capacity. Christ makes it so.

No…because where two are gathered in his name, He is there. I believe he was speaking of the community he established. I don’t see how it reflects on the teachings of the Church though

He was, and is; BUT; that does not prevent God from keeping His Promise of the HS and Himself as warranty for ALL of Her Truths when teaching on Faith and Morals. God does both.

God Bless, Pat
Pls. see nxt. Post

 

[PJM]

PART II REPLY 7 Explaination:

No,. Rather, to me, it would mean that humans, being mere humans, made a mistake in their interpretation of the message of the Holy Spirit.

Uninspired; undirected human beings can and do error. BUT when the Pope or Bishops in union with the Pope teach on Faith and Morals only; it is the “Church Speaking” THROUGH them; and cannot error.

It is promised that the Holy Spirit would teach the truth and guide the Church…it doesn’t say anything about mere humans not being able to understand incorrectly?

Sure it does. As evidenced above and below: Further it is an absolute necessity that it be true; which is why we see BOTH Jesus Himself [Jn.17:19] and the HS [Jn.14:16-17] actively involved in her Teachings. **Mt. 28:19-20 **requires this to be true. “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

NOTE: To ALL NATIONS; requires absolute Truth in-order to fulfill this mandate.

**2 Pet.1: 20 **"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, " 2nd. Pet.3 3, 16 "First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures

**2 Peter 2: 1-3 **But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.”

**Matt.7: 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matt.24: 11, 24 **“And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. For false Christ and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

Randy’s Bible Quote sums it up specifically: **1 Timothy 3:13 **if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Randy; hope you don’t mind the buttin-in

God Bless, hope you find this helpfull…

Pat**

 

[Ignatius]

1 Timothy 3:15

15if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

There is also the promise of the Holy Spirit, I think in John’s gospel.

And there are also many examples of this Teaching Authority throughout the New Testament, especially Acts and the Epistles of Paul and the other Apostles.

 

[JRKH]

I agree that sometimes thinking things though in a group sometimes helps, rather than have one individual make the decisions. That’s why we have juries. However, even juries get hung, especially in difficult cases. In the end, someone has to compromise what they believe in to ‘close the case’. Have you ever been to a community meeting? If you have been to any decision-making meeting, you know there are those who staunchly believe one way, and those who staunchly believe another way, and those that are on the fence.

When I took part in a jury, there were 3 people who adamantly thought that the defendant was guilty, and wanted him convicted. There were a few of us who thought he might be guilty, but knew the lawyers did a terrible job collecting evidence. Then the others thought he was not guilty due to the lack of evidence. Our “simple” deliberations as we were told they were going to be, lasted six days. Finally, the judge said he was going to sequester us over the weekend, and the three people who adamantly wanted him convicted threw up their hands and said, “fine, he’s not guilty”.

Even groups of people called together to discuss a problem will disagree, and will disagree until the end, but someone has to cave in to demands of the group as a whole. That doesn’t make it true, or correct. It’s part of the failings of being human. It could very well be the Holy Spirit orchestrating it so that the “right” answer is given in the end — or NOT. Again, we’re only human. That defendent was guilty, I think everyone knew that…but the lawyers trying to prosecute him were morons and lost evidence, but tried to present it anyway. You cannot prosecute someone without proof of what they did, no matter what people “think”. Therefore he got off on a technicality. How many decisions are made based on technicalities or pressure to follow the guidelines set forth in the decision making process? What about erring on the side of caution because there are no clear answers? It’s not reasonable to think that doesn’t happen with the Magisterium. They cave in to the pressure of their peers, to their fears, to their own values and beliefs, just like anyone else.

When you see groups of Bishops together disagreeing on modern day problems. You know it can’t be as simple as getting a group together, rather than a single person, to avoid making mistakes. We don’t even know who the Magisterium or who the Pope’s advisors are…

I agree that this is not something simple - I hope that I have not given the impression that I thought it was. Far from it…In fact, it takes more dedication, humility, charity, and forebearance to do things by the councilior model than it does to just use Private Interpretation.

I think that the Jury example is interesting but I ould like to point out a couple of things that make it not really comparable to the Biblical Councilior model. These are, the protection of the Holy Spirit, the commonality of those in council and the availability of options.
The first of course being the promised protection of the Holy Spirit guiding The Church into all truth. I don’t think juries would claim to have this.
The Second, the commonality amonst the members. While they are certainly all individuals, the bishops have a common background in theology, training, doctrinal beliefs, etc. In short they are all brother bishops of the RC church. The members of a jury do not have this same kind of commonality. Members can come from all sorts and levels of educational backgrounds, and belief systems.
The Third item, and perhaps the most important, is that juries are limited to very specific choices in their deliberations. Councils are not. Councils can discuss and tinker, and pull the good and discard teh bad from the varied viewpoints of the members. And wile we agree that each must give a little, it is compromise that (hopefully) reaches consensus.

So - between having the promise of the Holy Spirit, great commonality in calling and education, and an infinitely variable range of options in outcome, I think that we can place a lot of trust in the Church’s councils (formal and informal)…

Peace
James