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Anna_Scott
Guest
gurney,
I agree. I’m still following. Just not posting much. I think I’ve heard one too many “I lit my torch from this guy, who lit his torch from this guy” story. After awhile, the “torches” obliterate the true light of Christ.
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GKC
Guest
Henry was, at one time, considered a great defender of the faith. Though most folks don’t know the full story, he was, in fact, given the title of Defensor Fidei. It’s not as simple as is usually told, but it was interesting.
GKC
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GKC
Guest
How about CHESTERTON AND TOLKIEN AS THEOLOGIANS, by Alison Milbank?Nah, Tolkien!
GKC
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GKC
Guest
In 1932, the OCS were none of that. Which is what mattered. Though, of course, it wouldn’t matter now.
I don’t really worry about the issue of Anglican orders. I just know more than the average Joe about it.
Except for Joe, a RC and friend. Joe really does know more about it than anyone else I’ve ever met, including me. And he can pound me through the floor on it, usually, though sometimes I’ve made him break a sweat. For all that, we agree on some conclusions.
Good guy. Joe. And he knows more Latin than my daughter, whose degree was Latin/Classics, Summa cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa, etc, etc, and who taught it for 5 years.
GKC
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Robbinson
Guest
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crazzeto
Guest
Christ is certainly central to the faith, without this firmly in view all else is completely lost. I certainly agree with the sentaments that all baptised Christians are our brothers in Christ. More over, yes I agree there’s more to it simply than the laying on of hands, there have been validly ordained bishops who have fallen into heresy (Arieans for instance, among others)
That said, at the same time I don’t think one can simply ignore the laying on of hands. To do so in my book, is a bit like Evangelicals ignoring baptism… And if one were to decide that the laying on of hands wasn’t important, then what is it that makes the other sacraments important?
For me, it’s very much a both and, honestly it must be. If it wasn’t, then as Dr. Hahn suggests in his CD on the Eucharist “Yes the words of Christ are important, but if you ignore them then your disobeying the words of Christ!”
K
KathleenGee
Guest
But what is telling is the different variations in Anglicanism…where as Roman Catholicism doesn’t; we have as many opinions and inclination under a given roof, but we still have our big ‘T’ tradition.
Yes, we heard way back Henry’s title; I also read many Catholics were forced to become – and I don’t mean any lack of charity – ‘nationalists’…that is temporary, of this world…Catholicism is essentially mystical…
We are pilgrims on journey together…Christ is carrying us through His Spirit…It is in the Spirit that one’s faith is confirmed…people have to make that step.
I am still not clear on all the points on differences of Orthodoxy…the Byzantine world was great before the Muslim conquests, read S. John Climacus’ writings of the Syrian desert fathers…Orthodoxy more inward, even more mystical than the Latin, rule making administrative church.
Anna, passing the torch…again it is the Holy Spirit in the transmission of faith, the teaching magisterium, and I see a great power of witness in the celibate life. An orthodox shared the life of a married priest in a Slavic country, a most saintly man; his wife was called another name as ‘mother’…but they sounded like they lived the Gospel most profoundly. There are married couples in the Catholic Church who also celibate.
Yes, we heard way back Henry’s title; I also read many Catholics were forced to become – and I don’t mean any lack of charity – ‘nationalists’…that is temporary, of this world…Catholicism is essentially mystical…
We are pilgrims on journey together…Christ is carrying us through His Spirit…It is in the Spirit that one’s faith is confirmed…people have to make that step.
I am still not clear on all the points on differences of Orthodoxy…the Byzantine world was great before the Muslim conquests, read S. John Climacus’ writings of the Syrian desert fathers…Orthodoxy more inward, even more mystical than the Latin, rule making administrative church.
Anna, passing the torch…again it is the Holy Spirit in the transmission of faith, the teaching magisterium, and I see a great power of witness in the celibate life. An orthodox shared the life of a married priest in a Slavic country, a most saintly man; his wife was called another name as ‘mother’…but they sounded like they lived the Gospel most profoundly. There are married couples in the Catholic Church who also celibate.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Ask GKC about nukes, Japanese zeros, Chesterton, Lewis, the Avengers, or anything with an anglophile angle and you’ll get him goin’! 
Mention glamdring, narsil, Tom Bombadil, or Emma Peel and he’s puddy in your hands! 
Mention glamdring, narsil, Tom Bombadil, or Emma Peel and he’s puddy in your hands! Love your posts GKC - Its good to keep a sense of humour in these discussions and, most importantly, to celebrate our common bond in Christ. I spent some time in the Anglican/Episcopalian Church before crossing the Tiber. I love the book of common prayer.
Blessings,
Brian
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inkaneer
Guest
You left out the big one. We have different doctrines. All the rest of that stuff is fluff. Jesus’ prayer was that His followers be one and we are not one. And it doesn’t matter one bit how nice a person is. The fact is that anyone who is not Catholic has accepted as fact something that is unscriptural; that Jesus somehow permitted the church that He gave His life for, the Church that He promised the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth, the Church that Jesus said would have the power to bind and to loose in heaven as well as on earth and the church that He said He would remain with until the end of the Age, to lapse into error. I find that utterly indefensibly preposterous, not to mention insanely stupid and a complete mockery of the gospel that Jesus preached. Did I leave out it is also a sin too?
This idea of, though we are different, I’m okay and you’re okay, has no place in Christianity. Jesus established one church and only one church. If you are not in it you got problems of an eternal nature.
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crazzeto
Guest
Let’s give it a shot,Ask GKC about nukes, Japanese zeros, Chesterton, Lewis, the Avengers, or anything with an anglophile angle and you’ll get him goin’!
fish and chips are rubbish
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GKC
Guest
I agree.Let’s give it a shot,
fish and chips are rubbish
Bangers and mash is the bomb.
GKC
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GKC
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GKC
Guest
Henry’s title is often thought to be a result of the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum. But it’s more complicated than that. History often is more complicated than expected.
GKC
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GKC
Guest
I thank you, most sincerely.
Blessings,
Brian
And I forgot to mention that Joe is a superb artist.
GKC
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inkaneer
Guest
Defender of the Fakith was a title given to Henry for his defense of Catholicism during the Protestant revolt. But that was before he met a certain woman and wanted the pope to annul his prior marriage so he could marry her but the Pope would not do it. So old Henry did it his own way. He went on to marry that woman and several others too. I hear that ex wives of Henry didn’t remain ex wives too long either. And all this for the cause of having a male child to become king after Henry. Had genetics been further advanced at the time and had it been known that it is the male that determines the sex of the unborn child then maybe Henry would have been the one to go. I doubt it, but it does add a sort of humor, I think, to the beginnings of Anglicanism.
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GKC
Guest
Much of this is accurate. Much of Anglicanism is humorous.
Only 2 of Hank’s 6 died from being an ex-wife, both were convicted of capital treason. A 3rd died after childbirth. One died naturally, 2 survived him.
The full story of Henry and the Title is more complicated than is usually known. Always happy to post it (again) if anyone were to ask. Assuming I still have it on file.
GKC
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KathleenGee
Guest
People don’t seem to reflect on the reality that at Pentecost the apostles were handed vestments…that came in time.
The Nazarene Jews continued to worship at their synagogues until around 80 AD when the rabbis wrote a malediction against them. The Nazarene Jews moved and founded other synagogues, and moved worship to Sunday and left the 40 day fast out of protest. They developed their own chants. The Diaspora affected the Church of Jerusalem and they had to flee.
The Gentile Christians evolved differently meeting usually in the homes of the rich. The poor class was designated out into the courtyard, and it is assumed this is what St. Paul was referring to about we are all equal before the Lord…You also had the eastern cultures that fell under the Byzantine jurisdiction. Both Byzantine and Latin administrative issues usually looked to Rome as having the last say or final authority although they were autonomous to a great degree.
Greek was the international language of those times and for that reason, Catholic – which means universal became the name of those who were under the headship of Rome and holding to the universal and apostolic faith.
There were also those at these times who did not believe in the Breaking of the Bread, and not believing was the Great Heresy.
I shared the explanation of what the Mass is that was written by St. Justin the Martyr that was requested by the Roman Emperor around 155 AD. By then the liturgy was defined and acculturated. This is all the work of establishing the Church and form of worship.
Liturgy is ongoing work. As we believe, we pray. All the words, gestures, and elements of the Mass have to be communicated in total fidelity to the original intent going back to the liturgy’s beginning irregardless of the times and culture of the people. The message must always be the same. Christ is the atonement for our sins.
We are offered with Him as the only pleasing sacrifice to the Father. So our liturgies are based more on the deep adoration of God and the action of the Mass, and with the witness of our faith community.
A new contemporary book was recently put out by Fr. Jeremy Driscoll, ‘The Meaning of the Mass’. He explains the meaning of mystery and the sacred mysteries in the sacraments, the background and purpose of the presbyter – the priest, the functions and roles of different ministers of the Liturgy of the Word, and the background and meaning and signficance of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
When we attend the Mass, we rejoin the Jewish people of times past in the Old Testament as witness to the events that happened in their lives long ago that make the Church what it is today. We then proceed to the Psalms and the assembly’s response, and followed by the writings of the apostles. We then arrive at the Gospel, and the presbyter who is the Christ figure, reads the Gospel and gives the homily that provides context, continuity and application for us in the world we live in today.
Then we affirm our faith in the Nicene Creed that was the final definition of Who Christ is, that was written over 300 years after the death of Christ. The only perfect act that the Church can do in this world is to affirm our faith together as a Church, as it is the grace of our faith that saves us.
So the liturgy and the culture of church did not happen immediately, but what was given by the Holy Spirit of the Church was its life and strength and grace to spread the good news.
The Roman Church has the witness of the Holy Spirit by how it works to teach in the universal sense bringing the Good News to all people, and not be bound by the local or regional culture to hold on to that, as I see with the Orthodox.
We need the depth of the Orthodox, but we need as well the openness and expansion and moral voice of the universal Church as well.
The Nazarene Jews continued to worship at their synagogues until around 80 AD when the rabbis wrote a malediction against them. The Nazarene Jews moved and founded other synagogues, and moved worship to Sunday and left the 40 day fast out of protest. They developed their own chants. The Diaspora affected the Church of Jerusalem and they had to flee.
The Gentile Christians evolved differently meeting usually in the homes of the rich. The poor class was designated out into the courtyard, and it is assumed this is what St. Paul was referring to about we are all equal before the Lord…You also had the eastern cultures that fell under the Byzantine jurisdiction. Both Byzantine and Latin administrative issues usually looked to Rome as having the last say or final authority although they were autonomous to a great degree.
Greek was the international language of those times and for that reason, Catholic – which means universal became the name of those who were under the headship of Rome and holding to the universal and apostolic faith.
There were also those at these times who did not believe in the Breaking of the Bread, and not believing was the Great Heresy.
I shared the explanation of what the Mass is that was written by St. Justin the Martyr that was requested by the Roman Emperor around 155 AD. By then the liturgy was defined and acculturated. This is all the work of establishing the Church and form of worship.
Liturgy is ongoing work. As we believe, we pray. All the words, gestures, and elements of the Mass have to be communicated in total fidelity to the original intent going back to the liturgy’s beginning irregardless of the times and culture of the people. The message must always be the same. Christ is the atonement for our sins.
We are offered with Him as the only pleasing sacrifice to the Father. So our liturgies are based more on the deep adoration of God and the action of the Mass, and with the witness of our faith community.
A new contemporary book was recently put out by Fr. Jeremy Driscoll, ‘The Meaning of the Mass’. He explains the meaning of mystery and the sacred mysteries in the sacraments, the background and purpose of the presbyter – the priest, the functions and roles of different ministers of the Liturgy of the Word, and the background and meaning and signficance of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
When we attend the Mass, we rejoin the Jewish people of times past in the Old Testament as witness to the events that happened in their lives long ago that make the Church what it is today. We then proceed to the Psalms and the assembly’s response, and followed by the writings of the apostles. We then arrive at the Gospel, and the presbyter who is the Christ figure, reads the Gospel and gives the homily that provides context, continuity and application for us in the world we live in today.
Then we affirm our faith in the Nicene Creed that was the final definition of Who Christ is, that was written over 300 years after the death of Christ. The only perfect act that the Church can do in this world is to affirm our faith together as a Church, as it is the grace of our faith that saves us.
So the liturgy and the culture of church did not happen immediately, but what was given by the Holy Spirit of the Church was its life and strength and grace to spread the good news.
The Roman Church has the witness of the Holy Spirit by how it works to teach in the universal sense bringing the Good News to all people, and not be bound by the local or regional culture to hold on to that, as I see with the Orthodox.
We need the depth of the Orthodox, but we need as well the openness and expansion and moral voice of the universal Church as well.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Guerney,
This Nigerian Catholic told us what he has read and understood in the Acts…I think the reference was into Catholics criticized for wearing scapulars and the like. He pointed out that there those who carried pictures of St. Jude with them or on their person…an act of endearment…you mention rosaries…using prayer beads is a human form prayer.
This Nigerian Catholic told us what he has read and understood in the Acts…I think the reference was into Catholics criticized for wearing scapulars and the like. He pointed out that there those who carried pictures of St. Jude with them or on their person…an act of endearment…you mention rosaries…using prayer beads is a human form prayer.
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