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StAnastasia
Guest
Where did you get this stuff about the “core”?
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buffalo
Guest
I make it a point to stay up on the latest research and not simply parrot the status quo.
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edwest2
Guest
More information about redshift and the distance relationships of objects in space:
mpa-garching.mpg.de/HIGHLIGHT/2001/highlight0108_e.html
God bless,
Ed
mpa-garching.mpg.de/HIGHLIGHT/2001/highlight0108_e.html
God bless,
Ed
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Philipp
Guest
As noted in my previous two posts. modern sedmentology studies and the second law of thermodynamics do NOT support the statement from the PAS and its afilitate at their 2002 conference in Rome as quoted by St. A. Here is the third paper:
Are Radio-dating Methods Reliable?
Jean de Pontcharra, Grenoble, France
Abstract
Methods using radioactive decay effects are supposed to confirm stratigraphic chronologies and to improve our knowledge of the age of the Earth. In fact, the reality is much more complicated. Fundamental issues must be discussed. For example, what is the importance of the assumptions made for initial conditions in the final result? Is the experimental method applicable to events in the past? And, if the answer is yes, with what precautions?
Reviewing the history of radiodating methods shows the oversimplified assumptions made at the beginning of the XXth century. The extreme simplicity of nuclear models, the lack of knowledge of radioactive decay series, the ignorance of isotopes, the “closed system” hypothesis, but above all, the choice of initial conditions far from realistic, gave rise to contradictory results. We will show that, despite huge improvements in measurement techniques, these weaknesses from the beginning were never corrected. Results discordant with the geological time-scale are systematically discarded. Worst of all, no forum is provided in which scientists can formulate objections to the validity of the initial hypothesis.
Based on the radioactive decay series initiated by uranium 238, we analyze the consequences of different initial conditions on the age of metamorphic rocks.
Through some examples, we discuss the validity of the “closed system” concept (no exchange between the rock crystals and the environment), in particular for the potassium/argon method applied to volcanic rocks undergoing hydrothermal conditions, far from standard conditions (supercritical state at deep depths) and never included in models of crystallization. The crystallization occurring in liquid or viscous magma traps gases and crystal outgassing during eruption is not total. Argon 40 in excess is demonstrated in magmatic rocks from recent volcanic eruptions, like Mt St Helens (USA) and Mt Ngauruhoe (New Zealand). The quantity of argon 40 trapped depends on hydrothermal conditions during solidification and on structure of the crystal lattice. These results explain the systematic and erratic ages obtained from material collected at recent eruption sites.
The need of a free, open and wide debate on such subjects, linked with systematic experiments, is vital for the credibility of modern scientists involved in this research field.
Dr. Jean de Pontcharra is the Research Group Head, CEA-LETI (Commissariat à l’Energie Atomique, Laboratoire d’Electronique et de Technologie de l’Informatique). He has a doctorate in solid state physics from the University of Grenoble, France. Blow is the reference for Mt. Ngauruhoe from the Internet and the actual abstract
icr.org/research/index/researchp_as_r01/
ABSTRACT
New Zealand’s newest and most active volcano, Mt Ngauruhoe in the Taupo Volcanic Zone, produced andesite flows in 1949 and 1954, and avalanche deposits in 1975. Potassium-argon “dating” of five of these flows and deposits yielded K-Ar model “ages” from <0.27 Ma to 3.5 - 0.2 Ma. “Dates” could not be reproduced, even from splits of the same samples from the same flow, the explanation being variations in excess 40Ar* content. A survey of anomalous K-Ar “dates” indicates they are common, particularly in basalts, xenoliths and xenocrysts such as diamonds that are regarded as coming from the upper mantle. In fact, it is now well established that there are large quantities of excess 40Ar* in the mantle, which in part represent primordial argon not produced by in situ radioactive decay of 40K and not yet outgassed. And there are mantle-crust domains between, and within, which argon circulates during global tectonic processes, magma genesis and mixing of crustal materials. This has significant implications for the validity of K-Ar and 40Ar/39Ar “dating”.
The abstract by atomic physicist, Dr. Jean de Pontcharra was taken from the following web site: sites.google.com/site/scientificcritiqueofevolution/Home
The title of the conference was "The Scientific impossibility of Eevolution
It can also be found on www.dinoaurc14ages.com on the page entitled, “Interesting articles” the last of about 15.
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ricmat
Guest
Hamilton Arp, who figures prominently in your link above (the objects are named after him) is connected with this web site, which has some redshift related articles (I looked quickly but couldn’t find the ones I was looking for).
There are also some articles on gravity (how little we know about it), and planetary accretion (how it can’t work), and the relative “youth” of the planet Venus (as in “within historical times.” ) StA - Beware! Beware!
These articles are not creationist dogma, in fact, the authors seem to be pretty religion hostile.
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edwest2
Guest
I’ve noticed a strange thing. The more “religion hostile” authors are, the more likely that their views get a hearing. Funny that.
God bless,
Ed
God bless,
Ed
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StAnastasia
Guest
So what is your source for this stuff on “the core”?
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Philipp
Guest
CONTINUED:
Did Megafauna and Dinosaurs Live at the Same Time?
Josef Holzschuh, Sydney, Australia
Abstract
The discovery of collagen and soft tissue in a Tyrannosaurus-rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal Science. Its geologic location was the Hell Creek Formation in the State of Montana, United States of America. When it was learned in 2005 that Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered by the Glendive (MT) Dinosaur & Fossil Museum, permission was asked and received to saw them in half and collect samples for radiocarbon (RC) testing of any bone collagen that might be extracted. Indeed both bones contained collagen and conventional dates of 30,890 +/- 380 for the Triceratops and 23,170 +/-170 for the Hadrosaur were obtained using an Accelerated Mass Spectrometer. Total organic carbon and bio-apatite were then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for megafauna.
A study of radiocarbon literature for dating of both megafauna such as mammoths, mastodons, saber tooth tiger (Smilidon), giant bison and sloths; and, dinosaurs like Acrocanthosaurus, Allosaurus and Hadrosaur show that they all lived at the same time. According to Dr. Walter Libby, the inventor of the radiocarbon dating method, “There is no known natural mechanism by which collagen may be altered to yield a false age.” Other scientists have shown that collagen and soft tissue would degrade within 30,000 to 100,000 years. And even significant trace amounts of C-14 have been found in coal and diamonds where there should be none. There is also paleontological evidence that dinosaurs and humans have coexisted as their footprints have been found together in the same strata at several locations in the United States. There are distinct dinosaur depictions world-wide that confirm the RC data; examples have been found in Israel, Syria, East Africa, Peru, Mexico, United States and Cambodia.
To address these apparent and very serious chronological anomalies, account needs be taken of the evolving situation in geology and paleontology. Experiments in stratification challenging the principles of stratigraphy and hence the geological time-scale could help to provide an explanation. The assumption that dinosaurs are over 65 million years old, for instance, is directly related to ages of rocks determined inter alia by the principle of superposition of strata. If this principle is incorrect, as shown by laboratory experiments, so are the interpretations of ages of the fossils in the rocks based upon that principle. This paper confirms the existence of residual carbon 14 in fossils normally excluded from the RC dating method because of their supposed age. Advances in sedimentology and RC dating of fossils now allow for a systematic reevaluation of the ages assigned to the earth’s sedimentary rocks by stratigraphy.
Dr. Josef Holzschuh has a Ph.D. in geophysics from the University of Western Australia.
Did Megafauna and Dinosaurs Live at the Same Time?
Josef Holzschuh, Sydney, Australia
Abstract
The discovery of collagen and soft tissue in a Tyrannosaurus-rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal Science. Its geologic location was the Hell Creek Formation in the State of Montana, United States of America. When it was learned in 2005 that Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered by the Glendive (MT) Dinosaur & Fossil Museum, permission was asked and received to saw them in half and collect samples for radiocarbon (RC) testing of any bone collagen that might be extracted. Indeed both bones contained collagen and conventional dates of 30,890 +/- 380 for the Triceratops and 23,170 +/-170 for the Hadrosaur were obtained using an Accelerated Mass Spectrometer. Total organic carbon and bio-apatite were then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for megafauna.
A study of radiocarbon literature for dating of both megafauna such as mammoths, mastodons, saber tooth tiger (Smilidon), giant bison and sloths; and, dinosaurs like Acrocanthosaurus, Allosaurus and Hadrosaur show that they all lived at the same time. According to Dr. Walter Libby, the inventor of the radiocarbon dating method, “There is no known natural mechanism by which collagen may be altered to yield a false age.” Other scientists have shown that collagen and soft tissue would degrade within 30,000 to 100,000 years. And even significant trace amounts of C-14 have been found in coal and diamonds where there should be none. There is also paleontological evidence that dinosaurs and humans have coexisted as their footprints have been found together in the same strata at several locations in the United States. There are distinct dinosaur depictions world-wide that confirm the RC data; examples have been found in Israel, Syria, East Africa, Peru, Mexico, United States and Cambodia.
To address these apparent and very serious chronological anomalies, account needs be taken of the evolving situation in geology and paleontology. Experiments in stratification challenging the principles of stratigraphy and hence the geological time-scale could help to provide an explanation. The assumption that dinosaurs are over 65 million years old, for instance, is directly related to ages of rocks determined inter alia by the principle of superposition of strata. If this principle is incorrect, as shown by laboratory experiments, so are the interpretations of ages of the fossils in the rocks based upon that principle. This paper confirms the existence of residual carbon 14 in fossils normally excluded from the RC dating method because of their supposed age. Advances in sedimentology and RC dating of fossils now allow for a systematic reevaluation of the ages assigned to the earth’s sedimentary rocks by stratigraphy.
Dr. Josef Holzschuh has a Ph.D. in geophysics from the University of Western Australia.
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Philipp
Guest
Impact of Race Formation and Mutations on the Theory of Evolution
Maciej Giertych, Kornik, Poland
Abstract
Throughout Europe evolution is taught in schools as a biological fact. The main evidence for this presented in school textbooks is based on the assertion that formation of races is an example of a small step in evolution. This is profoundly wrong. Races form as a consequence of genetic drift, selection and isolation. Genetic drift results from the accidental loss of some genetic variation in small populations due to inbreeding. Selection depends on the elimination from a population of all forms not adapted to the particular environment. With this elimination also some gene variants (alleles) get lost. For natural races to be identifiable they have to remain isolated from the main body of the population. The same is true in breeding, where the breeder reproduces the race formation procedure only applying selection pressures of his own choice. Macroevolution requires increase of genetic variants, thus race formation which depends on their reduction is a process in the opposite direction, comparable to extinctions.
Positive mutations, as a mechanism leading to new functions or organs, are an undemonstrated postulate. We can demonstrate many neutral and negative mutations, but no positive ones. The claim that the appearance of resistance to man-made chemicals (herbicides, fungicides, antibiotics etc) is evidence of positive mutations is questioned on the ground that it belongs to the multitude of defense mechanisms (like healing or acquiring immunity) which defend the existing life functions of an organism without creating new ones.
Dr. Maciej Giertych holds an M.A. in forestry from Oxford University in England and a Ph. D. in tree physiology from Toronto University, Canada, and a D.Sc. in genetics from the Agricultural Academy in Poznan, Poland. A population geneticist, Dr. Giertych has published more than 200 scientific papers and several books, primarily in the field of population genetics of forest trees.
Other Population geneticist like Dr. John Sanford of Cornell University has confirmed what Dr. Majiej Giertych of Poland has noted. in his book in English, “Genetic Entropy”
Maciej Giertych, Kornik, Poland
Abstract
Throughout Europe evolution is taught in schools as a biological fact. The main evidence for this presented in school textbooks is based on the assertion that formation of races is an example of a small step in evolution. This is profoundly wrong. Races form as a consequence of genetic drift, selection and isolation. Genetic drift results from the accidental loss of some genetic variation in small populations due to inbreeding. Selection depends on the elimination from a population of all forms not adapted to the particular environment. With this elimination also some gene variants (alleles) get lost. For natural races to be identifiable they have to remain isolated from the main body of the population. The same is true in breeding, where the breeder reproduces the race formation procedure only applying selection pressures of his own choice. Macroevolution requires increase of genetic variants, thus race formation which depends on their reduction is a process in the opposite direction, comparable to extinctions.
Positive mutations, as a mechanism leading to new functions or organs, are an undemonstrated postulate. We can demonstrate many neutral and negative mutations, but no positive ones. The claim that the appearance of resistance to man-made chemicals (herbicides, fungicides, antibiotics etc) is evidence of positive mutations is questioned on the ground that it belongs to the multitude of defense mechanisms (like healing or acquiring immunity) which defend the existing life functions of an organism without creating new ones.
Dr. Maciej Giertych holds an M.A. in forestry from Oxford University in England and a Ph. D. in tree physiology from Toronto University, Canada, and a D.Sc. in genetics from the Agricultural Academy in Poznan, Poland. A population geneticist, Dr. Giertych has published more than 200 scientific papers and several books, primarily in the field of population genetics of forest trees.
Other Population geneticist like Dr. John Sanford of Cornell University has confirmed what Dr. Majiej Giertych of Poland has noted.
in his book in English, “Genetic Entropy”
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rossum
Guest
Philipp, unless you are Guy Berthault it would help if you could clearly separate your own words from those of Dr Berthault, I was initially confused by the references to “I” and “me” in Dr Berthault’s text.
rossum
As he states, Dr Berthault did some interesting work on the deposition of certain types of sedimentary rocks in certain conditions. He was incorrect to apply this work to all types of rock in all conditions. St Anastasia has already linked to one refutation of Dr Berthault’s unwarranted extension of his work, there is another to be found at Berthault’s “Stratigraphy”.
rossum
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rossum
Guest
Dr Seiler’s piece is self-refuting. Please note the phrase I have bolded, I will return to it below.
Is a crystal more ordered or less ordered than the solution from which the crystal formed? Is a snowflake more ordered or less ordered than the water vapour from which it formed? Dr. Seiler has refuted himself within a few paragraphs. His understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics appears to be faulty. On his own admission he is incorrect to say “Entropy determines the direction in which all processes in nature proceed: … from ordered structures to disordered ones and never vice versa.” His own example shows that there are situations in which the universe proceeds from disordered structures towards ordered structures. Crystallisation is one such situation. The separation of a mixture of oil and water is another such and evolution is a third. Entropy increases in all situations but order can also increase. There is not a simple equality between entropy and disorder.
rossum
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itinerant1
Guest
Certainly. I have been posting on the fly again. It’s hit and run. Perhaps you can supply me with the numbers of the posts you would like to to consider. That would save me a little time looking for them.
I have take off in a few minutes and I will check back tonight. Post the numbers or PM me. Later…
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larkin31
Guest
this is not correct about entropy and order: there is no “always” and “never” in our system of our biosphere.The Second Law of Thermodynamics Excludes Evolution
Dr. Thomas Seiler, Ph.D., University of Munich
Abstract
Physicists recognize that the whole natural world operates according to the “Second Law of Thermodynamics,” which states that for isolated systems entropy, which is a measure of probability, will always increase. Entropy determines the direction in which all processes in nature proceed: from less probable distributions to more probable distributions, from ordered structures to disordered ones and never vice versa.
An example of the operation of entropy is genetic degeneration of a biological species due to negative mutations: for instance, on some windy islands, certain flies have entirely lost their wings. This is explained by the advantage of staying on the ground in an environment where strong winds can carry flying insects far out to sea. A succession of micro-variations that leads to the destruction of complex organs is a natural process of increasing entropy. The opposite—a succession of small genetic variations leading by natural selection to the construction of a completely new organ—is an excluded process of decreasing entropy.
An objection to the above premise is that the constraints of thermodynamics are not valid for biological structures because they exist in open systems. “Open” means that matter and especially energy can be exchanged with the surroundings. In order to test the validity of this objection, we must examine in detail what is possible in open systems.
The limits of an open system can be illustrated by the example of machines that reduce entropy such as refrigerators. They transfer heat from a cold volume (the inside space) to a warm volume (the surrounding room). This highly improbable phenomenon, however, can only be achieved because a complex mechanism that can automatically perform the cooling cycles exists already. Such entropy reducing machines are also found in the chloroplasts of plants. A further example of order increasing in open systems is observable in the formation of crystals, e.g. snow-flakes. When heat is removed, a phase-transition leads to the appearance of macroscopic regularity. Molecules which have slowed down during cooling can condense. It becomes energetically more favourable to arrange them in a crystal configuration than in a random orientation—a typical energy downhill process.
The reason why the proposed evolution of biological organs does not belong to such kinds of processes is that these processes are the physical ways in which a pre-existing order is transferred from one level to another. No really new order or information is generated in any of these open-systems. Either the information content was already present in a complex machine like a refrigerator or the chloroplasts, or it already existed in the symmetry of the underlying molecules, i.e. the directed inter-atomic electromagnetic forces. A further such category would be the feedback mechanism of a so-called “dissipative structure.” Nothing improbable happens in all these cases. It is always an energetic necessity that the pre-programmed ordered structures appear. Therefore, open systems do not create order. They only make hidden order visible.
On the other hand, the bodies of living creatures represent new information. It is not pre-contained in the molecular structure of constituent chemical elements nor is there a machine which is programmed to produce it. There is no physical arrangement which contains the information which is necessary to built up life from non-life or complex creatures from simpler creatures. It is excluded by the second law of thermodynamics because it does not belong to those pre-programmed structures which open systems can create! It follows that the evolution of man from molecules is precluded by the fundamental laws of nature.
Dr. Thomas Seiler has a Ph.D. in physics from the University of Munich.
Dr. Sanford of Cornell University also has written a book entitled Genetic Entropy which appears to confirm what a Germany researcher has pointed out above.
And what does it have to do with the determination of age of the earth? These cut and pastes of yours are a shot gun approach at several birds flying past you well above the reach of your ammo.
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rossum
Guest
Another piece of self refuting ‘science’. When a volcano erupts, some of the lava stays in the vent and solidifies there. When the next eruption passes through the same vent, some of the solidified lave can be dislodged and transported to the surface with the new eruption. If the transport time is fast enough then the lump of old lava does not melt and becomes a xenolith embedded in the new lava. A xenocryst is a crystal which has undergone a similar process. Dating a xenolith will date the previous eruption, not the current eruption. Dating xenoliths will always give you a date that is too early and is always useless for dating the current eruption.
As a geologist, Dr Snelling should have known this.
Dates from xenoliths and xenocrysts show nothing about the age of the lava flow they are embedded in. If I salvage a 200 year old brick from an old house and I use that brick, along with a lot of new bricks, to build my new house then can I say that my new house is 200 years old, just because that one brick is 200 years old? That is what Dr Snelling is doing by dating xenoliths.
rossum
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rossum
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We have discussed this before. C-14 dating an old sample will tell you what the limits of the equipment you are using is. If I stand on my kitchen scales they will tell me that I weigh 10 Kg. That is not my weight, it is just the maximum weight that my kitchen scales will register. 30,000 years is reasonable for the limit of some C-14 testing methods. I suggest that you check with the laboratory and ask them what the limits of their equipment is.
rossum
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ricmat
Guest
But in this case, they support your case.
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rossum
Guest
Dr. Giertych is incorrect. The Apolipoprotein A-I Milano helps prevent heart disease, see A Rare Protein Mutation Offers New Hope for Heart Disease Patients.
The HbC mutation increases resistance to malaria.
Both of these are positive mutations. I would also point to your own previous post in this thread where you quote Dr Seiler on the advantages of a mutation by which insects on islands lose their wings. Another example of a positive mutation from one of your previous posts.
As I said, Dr. Giertych is incorrect.
rossum
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larkin31
Guest
and find out who the authors of that one dino bone web page are and report back to us with their sampling and dating methods. this info is suspiciously absent from the page he keeps citing.
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Philipp
Guest
You simply do not have any answer but the old worn out assumption that some folks who have a deeply held belief system. I admire your faith but there is something radically wrong with your religion.
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Philipp
Guest
You mean like Rossum and his bathroom balance that need recalibrating? I admire his deeply held religious belief in the vast amount of assumptions he is required to accept as a beliver in evolution of life from cyanobacteria or where ever.
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