The earth is only 6000 years old (II)

[Philipp]

It was Edwest who brought the Jewish Calendar into the discussion. Hence, your comment, once more, is highly irrelevant.

Post your Dogmas. Is it the list that I already have shown not to consist completely of Dogma but includes misrepresentations of the Church Fathers among other interesting little twists.

I’m done for today with seeing logic and reason being twisted like a pretzel. Have a good day.

Can’t let you get off that easy. Either you don’t understand doctrines of the church or perhaps have disowned the church fathers and church conferences as obsolete; and, are now in favor of substituting Darwinian fairy tales as updated doctrines.

With regard to Jewish exegesis of Genesis, many of the Church Fathers were well aware of Hebrew exegesis of Genesis and they all interpreted the days of Genesis as being six natural days, except for St. Augustine who believed that all things were created at once and revealed to the angels in six installments, corresponding to the six days of Genesis 1. Either way, they all rejected the long ages that some later Jewish exegetes tolerated or embraced which you have quoted and of course which are promoted on this thread as “facts” by some posters.

St. Lawrence of Brindisi, a priest, knew all of the Biblical languages who lived in the 16th century under Pope St. Pius V. St. Lawrence, was familiar with all of the leading Jewish exegetes of the Middle Ages, and is a Doctor of the Church [Proclaimed by Pope John 23d ~1960]. In his commentary on Genesis 1, St. Lawrence rejects the opinion that the angels might have been created before the material universe and all of “the creatures of the world” and writes:

***The Holy Roman Church determined in the Fourth Lateran Council that the angels along with the creatures of the world were at once created ex nihilo from the beginning of time. (St. Lawrence of Brindisi, commentary on Genesis 1:1.) ***

Perhaps the English translation of St. Lawrence of Brindisi from the Latin might be helpful for the furtherance of your education! It is now available through normal sources.

 

[spn82756]

Well, what if God created the earth in an advanced state? That is, he created the Earth as though it had existed physically for a long time.

Some Lutheran Churches (LCMS & WELS) have official statements of creationism, but it’s not an impediment to simply be a member.

As a matter of Science, I believe in evolution. As a matter of Faith, I believe in creationism.

Yes…that God created it all and set it in motion. Guiding 13.7 billion years in getting to where we are now. Creating man in his image when it was His time to do so.

 

[edwest2]

Yes…that God created it all and set it in motion. Guiding 13.7 billion years in getting to where we are now. Creating man in his image when it was His time to do so.

Can you cite a Church document that supports that view? Or a papal statement? Just by way of reminder, various Popes, saints and other Catholic commentators are regularly quoted here.

God bless,
Ed

 

[spn82756]

Can you cite a Church document that supports that view? Or a papal statement? Just by way of reminder, various Popes, saints and other Catholic commentators are regularly quoted here.

God bless,
Ed

JPII seemed to think it was a possibility.

I’ll get the reference.

 

[spn82756]

There ya go EdWest.

newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm

 

[StAnastasia]

I may even decide to feature some of the CAF characters with permission of course. Do I have yours?

Buffalo, of course. It’s too late to get on the ASA program this year (the proposal deadline was in February), but you could try to get on the program for the summer 2011 conference. I like ASA a lot. There are some Catholics and numerous other Christians, and it’s a warm, supportive atmosphere for religious believers who are interested in science. If you are near the Washington DC area between July 30 and August 2, the conference will be held at Catholic University, and you could probably drop in for a session or two. The program is not out yet, so I don’t know whether or not there is a session on a theme close ot yours.

StAnastasia

 

[grannymh]

Can you cite a Church document that supports that view? Or a papal statement? Just by way of reminder, various Popes, saints and other Catholic commentators are regularly quoted here.

God bless,
Ed

Normally, I agree with you. However, the Catholic Deposit of Faith is concerned with faith and morals and not with matters of physical science. God is Creator of all is Church doctrine. The nitty-gritty scientific details are not spelled out in doctrines.

Nonetheless, individuals including saints, popes Church Fathers ,high ranking clergy, commentators, scientists, philosophers and journalists can have their own opinions as to how the earth was put together. These statements or documents concerning scientific aspects need to be judged on their own individual merit.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55

 

[edwest2]

Normally, I agree with you. However, the Catholic Deposit of Faith is concerned with faith and morals and not with matters of physical science. God is Creator of all is Church doctrine. The nitty-gritty scientific details are not spelled out in doctrines.

Nonetheless, individuals including saints, popes Church Fathers ,high ranking clergy, commentators, scientists, philosophers and journalists can have their own opinions as to how the earth was put together. These statements or documents concerning scientific aspects need to be judged on their own individual merit.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55

That is not true and I’m surprised you don’t know this. Just a few posts above is the reference to the secularly famous quote by Pope John Paul II. When Cardinal Schoenborn had some negative things to say in a New York Times article, the following occurred:

“Cristoph Cardinal Schoenborn’s article on evolution and creation in the New York Times launched an international controversy. Critics charged him with biblical literalism and ‘creationism.’”

That quote was taken from the front inside flap of the Cardinal’s book, Chance or Purpose.

God bless,
Ed

 

[spn82756]

That is not true and I’m surprised you don’t know this. Just a few posts above is the reference to the secularly famous quote by Pope John Paul II. When Cardinal Schoenborn had some negative things to say in a New York Times article, the following occurred:

“Cristoph Cardinal Schoenborn’s article on evolution and creation in the New York Times launched an international controversy. Critics charged him with biblical literalism and ‘creationism.’”

That quote was taken from the front inside flap of the Cardinal’s book, Chance or Purpose.
God bless,
Ed

Does “knowing” whether the universe is 13.7 billions years old or 6000 years old affect our salvation through Christ?

 

[edwest2]

JPII seemed to think it was a possibility.

I’ll get the reference.

You now call it a possibility after your post giving specific details? Pope John Paul II did not speak about one theory but more than one. He also said that there were certain ‘fixed points.’ Finally, Communion and Stewardship makes reference to his remark, and adds that there are theories that are incompatible with Church teaching including those of a neo-Darwiniam provenance the explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe.

God was not the great kick starter who let evolution out of its cage to do whatever it wanted. God established a goal - man. This is contrary to the Stephen Jay Gould idea that if evolution could be rewound, things would turn out differently.

I think the Church is considering the idea of some sort of development but as Pope Benedict has stated, evolution has not been scientifically proven.

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

 

[edwest2]

Does “knowing” whether the universe is 13.7 billions years old or 6000 years old affect our salvation through Christ?

It has been stated here that saying the world is 6000 years old is making the faith look foolish to those who are considering it. I don’t think the world is 6000 years old but I think there is compelling evidence that points to it being younger.

Our salvation through Christ is a spiritual process. Being born again, through baptism, is a spiritual process. I think some people who consider the Church embracing what they have decided is rational are ignoring the spiritual which exists in the rational world and in the other reality, to which we are all going toward.

God bless,
Ed

 

[spn82756]

You now call it a possibility after your post giving specific details? Pope John Paul II did not speak about one theory but more than one. He also said that there were certain ‘fixed points.’ Finally, Communion and Stewardship makes reference to his remark, and adds that there are theories that are incompatible with Church teaching including those of a neo-Darwiniam provenance the explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe.

God was not the great kick starter who let evolution out of its cage to do whatever it wanted. God established a goal - man. This is contrary to the Stephen Jay Gould idea that if evolution could be rewound, things would turn out differently.

I think the Church is considering the idea of some sort of development but as Pope Benedict has stated, evolution has not been scientifically proven.

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

Please what I wrote in post 540. Guided by God.

 

[grannymh]

There ya go EdWest.

newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm

First, you have my sincere gratitude for providing this version excerpted from the English edition of L’Obsservatore Romano. FYI, one can cross-check this document with the Catechism of the Catholic Church when Pope John Paul II gives official Catholic teaching coming from the Deposit of Faith.

However, I did not see anything related specifically to the age of the earth. Please indicate what that was – even if it is a simple general statement which I missed. My apology for that.

On the other hand, the Pope was very specific about “conditions” regarding theories of evolution and the limitations of science. I now have a reference for some previous posts regarding the true nature of human beings. Thank you for that.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.

 

[buffalo]

Are you envisioning that God created a single type of DNA at the beginning, which contained all forms of life within the design, or that there were different “kinds” of DNA right from the beginning?

I’m not trying to pin you down if you are just getting started on your concept. But I am curious.

I would distinguish a single type of DNA from the DNA language itself. The DNA language is the operating software, if you will, that instructs DNA.

I am envisioning the creative process as having full potential arriving in their own time as St Augustine thought.

St Augustine: - “But this they can do only through that hidden
power in the seed derived from the seminal reasons; and this derivation is possible only because
these reasons, having determined the abstract universal potency of definite matter to particular
species to terminate the creative act in the first members of such species, determined it in such a
way, that each species was to be continued by generation.”

and…

41
Hence the doctrine is clear. God, having decreed this existing order of creation created all things
simultaneously in the beginning by His simple creative word. He created in the roots of time prime
matter - under what elementary form or forms, is of no consequence - with its universal passive
potency determined to those creatures only that were to exist in the course of time; and this is the
creation of all things in their seminal reasons. This determination of passive potency was in no way
the imposition of a form, but merely the adaptation of the universal negative potentiality of prime
matter having no definite ordination to any form, to those it was actually to receive. Wherefore,
seminal reasons were, with regard to the first members of any species originating by creation,
purely passive. They were the primordial ordination of matter to respond to the creative word in
time according to each creature’s appointed time. In this response no intermediary agent intervened.
To the creative word spoken in the simple unchangeable present of eternity, the response of each
seminal reason was immediate, instantaneous, however widely separated it was from others in time;
because the moment in time for the existence of each was immediately subject to the eternal,
immutable present. Make the course of time as long as you please. Separate the beginnings of
species by what duration you like. There can be no interval between the word spoken in eternity and
its effect in time. St. Augustine leaves no room in his doctrine, as he proposes it, for Evolution.

42
His formula is as close as it is complete. The creative word, immutable, eternal, spoken once
eternally in the eternal present of God, producing its effects, therefore, immediately in time yet according
to the mutability of time, created simultaneously in the roots of times in their seminal
reasons, that is, in the determination of the passive potentiality of matter to them alone among
things abstractly possible, all creatures that were to exist, as they were to exist, each in its own time.
We must observe that this “simultaneously” does not mean simultaneously with the creative act
only, but also simultaneously among themselves. Whatever happens in time is simultaneous with the ever present moment of eternity. The simultaneous creation of creatures in the roots of times is
opposed to the successive terminations of the creative act in the course of time, whereby each
creature begins its own existence in its own time.

 

[grannymh]

Please what I wrote in post 540. Guided by God.

Unfortunately, while I am working on a reply, a flurry of posts takes place. Consider this one a p.s. to my post 551.

Your post 540 – 13.7 billion years would be considered in the realm of science which is not part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith. God creating man in His image is a matter of Faith as explained in “Truth Cannot Contradict Truth” #5. While I accept the theories of evolution which are applied to non-rational animals, I find the same theories inadequate when applied to human nature. The Pope explains why in #5 and #6.

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

 

[buffalo]

Buffalo, of course. It’s too late to get on the ASA program this year (the proposal deadline was in February), but you could try to get on the program for the summer 2011 conference. I like ASA a lot. There are some Catholics and numerous other Christians, and it’s a warm, supportive atmosphere for religious believers who are interested in science. If you are near the Washington DC area between July 30 and August 2, the conference will be held at Catholic University, and you could probably drop in for a session or two. The program is not out yet, so I don’t know whether or not there is a session on a theme close ot yours.

StAnastasia

Thanks for your help StA.

 

[Philipp]

Buffalo, of course. It’s too late to get on the ASA program this year (the proposal deadline was in February), but you could try to get on the program for the summer 2011 conference. I like ASA a lot. There are some Catholics and numerous other Christians, and it’s a warm, supportive atmosphere for religious believers who are interested in science. If you are near the Washington DC area between July 30 and August 2, the conference will be held at Catholic University, and you could probably drop in for a session or two. The program is not out yet, so I don’t know whether or not there is a session on a theme close ot yours.

StAnastasia

Do you think that they would allow folks such as the director of the Glendive Montana Dinosuar and Fossil Museum, Otis Kline, to present a paper on C-14 dating of dinosaur bone collagen for the summer of 2011? Perhaps by then Otis would even have more data.

In February of this year Kline also officially and publically challenged Jack Horner to C-14 date the soft tissue and collagen from the T-Rex that Jack and Mary Schweitzer have discovered and reported in the journal Science in 2005. Maybe Jack might be challenged by the ASA to give a paper on those results if he accepts the challenge to C-14 date his bones!

Thus this little poem is dedicated to Jack Horner from one of my net-working friends:

I was inspired to write a poem. You might be interested in the true story behind the original Nursery Rhyme. rhymes.org.uk/little_jack_horner.htm Perhaps the folks on Catholic Answers would enjoy the rhyme!

Big Jack Horner sat in a corner
scraping a dinosaur bone.
Some soft tissue appeared
And he said, “Just what I feared!
Evolution’s long ages are gone!”

 

[grannymh]

That is not true and I’m surprised you don’t know this. Just a few posts above is the reference to the secularly famous quote by Pope John Paul II. When Cardinal Schoenborn had some negative things to say in a New York Times article, the following occurred:

“Cristoph Cardinal Schoenborn’s article on evolution and creation in the New York Times launched an international controversy. Critics charged him with biblical literalism and ‘creationism.’”

That quote was taken from the front inside flap of the Cardinal’s book, Chance or Purpose.

God bless,
Ed

What is not true about post 545? Please explain your concern. Since you referred to “Truth Cannot Contradict Truth” linked in post 543, is there something there that I should have known – what is that, please? Since I often post on science issues, I would like to do so correctly. Thank you.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55

 

[ricmat]

I would distinguish a single type of DNA from the DNA language itself. The DNA language is the operating software, if you will, that instructs DNA.

Are you thinking of epigenetics here?

I am envisioning the creative process as having full potential arriving in their own time as St Augustine thought.

St Augustine: - “But this they can do only through that hidden
power in the seed derived from the seminal reasons; and this derivation is possible only because
these reasons, having determined the abstract universal potency of definite matter to particular
species to terminate the creative act in the first members of such species, determined it in such a
way, that each species was to be continued by generation.”

and…

41
Hence the doctrine is clear. God, having decreed this existing order of creation created all things
simultaneously in the beginning by His simple creative word. He created in the roots of time prime
matter - under what elementary form or forms, is of no consequence - with its universal passive
potency determined to those creatures only that were to exist in the course of time; and this is the
creation of all things in their seminal reasons. This determination of passive potency was in no way
the imposition of a form, but merely the adaptation of the universal negative potentiality of prime
matter having no definite ordination to any form, to those it was actually to receive. Wherefore,
seminal reasons were, with regard to the first members of any species originating by creation,
purely passive. They were the primordial ordination of matter to respond to the creative word in
time according to each creature’s appointed time. In this response no intermediary agent intervened.
To the creative word spoken in the simple unchangeable present of eternity, the response of each
seminal reason was immediate, instantaneous, however widely separated it was from others in time;
because the moment in time for the existence of each was immediately subject to the eternal,
immutable present. Make the course of time as long as you please. Separate the beginnings of
species by what duration you like. There can be no interval between the word spoken in eternity and
its effect in time. St. Augustine leaves no room in his doctrine, as he proposes it, for Evolution.

42
His formula is as close as it is complete. The creative word, immutable, eternal, spoken once
eternally in the eternal present of God, producing its effects, therefore, immediately in time yet according
to the mutability of time, created simultaneously in the roots of times in their seminal
reasons, that is, in the determination of the passive potentiality of matter to them alone among
things abstractly possible, all creatures that were to exist, as they were to exist, each in its own time.
We must observe that this “simultaneously” does not mean simultaneously with the creative act
only, but also simultaneously among themselves. Whatever happens in time is simultaneous with the ever present moment of eternity. The simultaneous creation of creatures in the roots of times is
opposed to the successive terminations of the creative act in the course of time, whereby each
creature begins its own existence in its own time.

Are 41 and 42 part of your own writings, or are you quoting somebody else?

 

[spn82756]

Unfortunately, while I am working on a reply, a flurry of posts takes place. Consider this one a p.s. to my post 551.

Your post 540 – 13.7 billion years would be considered in the realm of science which is not part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith. God creating man in His image is a matter of Faith as explained in “Truth Cannot Contradict Truth” #5. While I accept the theories of evolution which are applied to non-rational animals, I find the same theories inadequate when applied to human nature. The Pope explains why in #5 and #6.

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

Granny…I think we agree. God made man in His own image. I believe Adam and Eve existed. I just don’t see a 6000 year old world.

OH Gosh…my pet velociraptor just got out of the yard. She’s chasing a sweet little bunny!