The earth is only 6000 years old (II)

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Roy5 said:
  1. Is StAnatasia suggesting that God permitted 9/11 because we had built skyscrapers too high? It sounds that way. That’s letting the terrorists get away with wholesale murder. Actually, one issue in my mind forever and a day has been this: if God permits such an atrocity does he bear some of the blame? If a loving father knows his children are about to drown and doesn’t step in to save them, is God partly at fault? I don’t think so, but it does make me wonder. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, and if God is love as the Bible states, why does he allow so much suffering - whether in Haiti or Darfur, in Chile or Rwanda - etc? And St. A - not to compete with your credentials, but I taught college philosophy and comparative religions myself. That doesn’t mean I have the correct answers.
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Roy5, no, I did not contend that God is against building tall skyscrapers. I was merely responding to your comment in post # 729 about ziggurats.

The problem of evil is of course enormous, and has been responded to in countless theodicies over the years. I don’t believe the classic formulation of it is even coherent, e.g., that God knew how to keep the Titanic afloat but wasn’t powerful enough to, or that God was strong enough to keep it afloat but didn’t want to, or that God wanted to save the passengers but didn’t know enough to keep the ship afloat.

The only coherent theodicy I know of is that of a dynamic and evolving cosmos, in which God desires the free moral response of God’s creation. Such a creation includes dynamic planets that have icebergs, and that have creatures who have evolved the ability to construct flimsy iron ships and also the arrogance not to include sufficient lifeboats. God was with the passengers as they died of hypothermia or drowned or went down trapped in the ship. God knew their suffering intimately, because God had experienced suffering and death on Calvary.

This is not a way of “getting God off the hook” but of describing an open and evolving creation. God wills the good of creatures, but does not curtain creaturely freedom by stepping in at every parlous moment to divert icebergs or snatch box cutters out of terrorists’ hands.

StAnastasa
 
buffalo said:
If the whole world was engaged in loving the one true God would any of this happen? The Virgin Mary has always told us to pray. Could it be that the quantum effects of mass prayer change the course of natural events? (chastisements?)
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Interesting question, buffalo. Since death is structural to an evolving cosmos, prayer could probably not prevent all suffering, even though no doubt it could prevent some. Either carnivorous creatures have to starve and die, or their prey have to suffer and die.

It would be a worthy experiment to see whether mass prayer could change air travel safety. I suppose you could devise an experiment in which the safety of certain airlines and airports is prayed for, and that of others is not prayed for, and compare accident and mortality rates after a set period. That might demonstrate something about the power of prayer, even if not conclusively.

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
It would be a worthy experiment to see whether mass prayer could change air travel safety. I suppose you could devise an experiment in which the safety of certain airlines and airports is prayed for, and that of others is not prayed for, and compare accident and mortality rates after a set period. That might demonstrate something about the power of prayer, even if not conclusively.

StAnastasia
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It seems to me that this type of experiment would fall into the category of “testing God”, treating God as some sort of cosmic vending machine. Put in your prayers, push the different buttons, and see what pops out. Make God the subject of a science experiment. The assumption in such an experiment seems to be that we, not God, are in control somehow, and God must react according to some natural law of science. How can one pray to God with humility while asking him to be part of an experiment?

Of course we should pray for others (and ourselves), and God has promised to answer prayers which are good for our salvation. I don’t see any obvious connection between treating God as part of an experiment, and our salvation.

.
 
StAnastasia said:
Roy5, no, I did not contend that God is against building tall skyscrapers. I was merely responding to your comment in post # 729 about ziggurats.

The problem of evil is of course enormous, and has been responded to in countless theodicies over the years. I don’t believe the classic formulation of it is even coherent, e.g., that God knew how to keep the Titanic afloat but wasn’t powerful enough to, or that God was strong enough to keep it afloat but didn’t want to, or that God wanted to save the passengers but didn’t know enough to keep the ship afloat.
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Since the classic formulation regarding the problem of evil has been presented by StAnastasia, in the spirit of open discussion, I will respond with Catholic teaching next week. Of course, StAnastasia and others should continuing replying with the Catholic position and any other worldviews. I will catch up with this post later.
The only coherent theodicy I know of is that of a dynamic and evolving cosmos, in which God desires the free moral response of God’s creation.
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There is another coherent explanation for evil. It can be found in the* Catechism of the Catholic Church*.

Easter Blessings to All
granny

John 20: 24-31
 
StAnastasia said:
It would be a worthy experiment to see whether mass prayer could change air travel safety. I suppose you could devise an experiment in which the safety of certain airlines and airports is prayed for, and that of others is not prayed for, and compare accident and mortality rates after a set period. That might demonstrate something about the power of prayer, even if not conclusively.

StAnastasia
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Such an experiment would only demonstrate the lack of knowledge about Catholicism. Though I should point out that after studying a “prayer experiment” which was to have included Catholic participation, I am totally amazed that the flaws in the method weren’t recognized. I am referring to some misunderstandings about Catholic teaching regarding prayer.

If people of other faiths would like to attempt such an experiment according to their own beliefs about prayer, that is their right.

Easter Blessings to All
granny

John 20: 24-31
 
StAnastasia said:
It would be a worthy experiment to see whether mass prayer could change air travel safety. I suppose you could devise an experiment in which the safety of certain airlines and airports is prayed for, and that of others is not prayed for, and compare accident and mortality rates after a set period. That might demonstrate something about the power of prayer, even if not conclusively.
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Such experiments have already been done. For one example see Does Prayer Influence the Success of in Vitro Fertilization–Embryo Transfer? (.doc):A statistically significant difference was observed for the effect of IP on the outcome of IVF-ET, though the data should be interpreted as preliminary.

rossum
 
buffalo said:
If the whole world was engaged in loving the one true God would any of this happen?
The Virgin Mary has always told us to pray. Could it be that the quantum effects of mass prayer change the course of natural events? (chastisements?)
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Wow! This is really a thought provoking post. Perhaps, it needs its own thread.
 
grannymh said:
Since the classic formulation regarding the problem of evil has been presented by StAnastasia, in the spirit of open discussion, I will respond with Catholic teaching next week.
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Now for some Holy Saturday nastiness from Granny: “StAnastasia is not Catholic; I will respond with Catholic teaching next week.”

I didn’t think it was allowed on Catholic Answers continually to challenge another poster’s Catholicity.

Happy Holy Saturday,
StAnastasia
 
rossum said:
Such experiments have already been done. For one example see Does Prayer Influence the Success of in Vitro Fertilization–Embryo Transfer? (.doc):
A statistically significant difference was observed for the effect of IP on the outcome of IVF-ET, though the data should be interpreted as preliminary.
rossum
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Is this the same study you mentioned some time back? I was hoping you would present some study since the one I originally read was flawed by a bias among other things. I got this one opened and lost it before I could save it. I did spot some interesting points in yours. Hopefully, I can get it opened again next week.
Thank you.

Easter Blessings to All
granny

John 20: 24-31
 
rossum said:
Such experiments have already been done. For one example see Does Prayer Influence the Success of in Vitro Fertilization–Embryo Transfer? (.doc):A statistically significant difference was observed for the effect of IP on the outcome of IVF-ET, though the data should be interpreted as preliminary.

rossum
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I’ve studied this issue, Rossum and taught about it in ethics classes. it does raise some interesting questions about the relationship between prayer, nature, an the divine will.

(1) Does God effect pregnancy based on the prayers of strangers, rather than on the intrinsic character of the couples trying to get pregnant?

(2) If God is opposed to IVF, is it even God who is increasing the rate of successful pregnancy in those prayed for?

(3) Does God listen to the magisterium, which has opposed IVF?

(4) If it is not God who is increasing the rate of successful IVF conceptions, could it be some other force, such as a force for evil?

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
Interesting question, buffalo. Since death is structural to an evolving cosmos, prayer could probably not prevent all suffering, even though no doubt it could prevent some. Either carnivorous creatures have to starve and die, or their prey have to suffer and die.

It would be a worthy experiment to see whether mass prayer could change air travel safety. I suppose you could devise an experiment in which the safety of certain airlines and airports is prayed for, and that of others is not prayed for, and compare accident and mortality rates after a set period. That might demonstrate something about the power of prayer, even if not conclusively.

StAnastasia
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I do not know if this type of experiment would show it.

What I am getting at is - individual free will and humanities free will. Does God allow the totality of humanities’ free will to chart the course of its future?
 
ricmat said:
Certainly intentional lies against anything are wrong. But intention is hard to prove. And what is a scientific lie today may be the scientific truth of tomorrow. It happens regularly. “Yes, son, the Sun goes around the earth.” Was that an intentional lie in 450AD? Or was it a lie then to say that the earth goes around the Sun when most of the scientists of the time said otherwise?

In any case, it seems to me that lies against God are much more serious than lies against Science. So we should be very careful there.

I agree with Ed that there is an agenda behind much of this. But for something to actually be a lie, one must know that it is actually a lie. I’m not sure that that’s the case we’re dealing with here on either side.
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Oh, come on.

No one in America today believes in a 6-10 thousand yr-old earth simply from the empirical evidence.

Stop pretending that this is about inconclusive evidence. That is an insult to other adults here.
 
larkin31 said:
Oh, come on.

No one in America today believes in a 6-10 thousand yr-old earth simply from the empirical evidence.

Stop pretending that this is about inconclusive evidence. That is an insult to other adults here.
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Is this an argument from popularity?
 
StAnastasia said:
Now for some Holy Saturday nastiness from Granny: “StAnastasia is not Catholic; I will respond with Catholic teaching next week.”

I didn’t think it was allowed on Catholic Answers continually to challenge another poster’s Catholicity.

Happy Holy Saturday,
StAnastasia
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It is allowed on CAF to discuss teachings, opinions, speculations, and so on. For example, it is perfectly acceptable to present a different view from that of the classic formulation regarding the problem of evil. It is permissible to identify the person who presents a particular view of a topic in a public post.

It is also allowed on CAF to present Catholic teachings as a clarification. Some Catholics find that beneficial. Some are annoyed. Some are interested in discussing issues. My point is that Catholic teachings stand on their own no matter who posts them or who reads them, who accepts them and who wants to change them.

One more thing regarding my post being misquoted above. This is what was said in post 759:
Since the classic formulation regarding the problem of evil has been presented by StAnastasia, in the spirit of open discussion, I will respond with Catholic teaching next week. Of course, StAnastasia and others should continuing replying with the Catholic position and any other worldviews. I will catch up with this post later.
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There is another coherent explanation for evil. It can be found in the* Catechism of the Catholic Church*.
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Easter Blessings to All
granny

John 20: 24-31
 
larkin31 said:
Oh, come on.

No one in America today believes in a 6-10 thousand yr-old earth simply from the empirical evidence.

Stop pretending that this is about inconclusive evidence. That is an insult to other adults here.
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I don’t believe in a 6-10K year old earth.

You didn’t answer my original question.
 
buffalo said:
Summary:

IDvolution - God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act. This accounts for the diversity of life we see. The core makeup shared by all living things have the necessary complex information built in that facilitates rapid and responsive adaptation of features and variation while being able to preserve the “kind” that they began as. Life has been created with the creativity built in ready to respond to triggering events.

We have two areas to play here. Metaphysical and biological. I have the luxury of crossing the boundaries to convey a complete understanding. I have no doubt that Miller and Ayala with such vested interests in evolution will resist, but all I can do is ask that they consider this possibility.

Send it for me and they can dialogue PM here if they wish.
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Getting back to the basics of this thread which is the age of the earth, Miller and Ayala, noted above, should be asked to challenge their own fellow evolutionary paleontologists and the bone repositories to test for C-14 content in fossil dinosaur bone collagen and human bone collagen and of course the calcium carbonate fraction of the bone bio-apatite whether or not little or no collagen is extractable.

As one state archaeologist put it, Radiocarbon dating is the absolute gold standard for dating archaeological finds; he had the bones of a Mastodon C-14 dated. That way everyone will get the whole picture as they discuss the hypothesis of evolution of one species into another vs. IDvolution. Just as C-14 dating Neanderthal bones from caves in Eurasia is good archaeology so someday dating dinosaurs and alleged ancient human bones will be considered common everyday archaeological practice.😉
 
larkin31 said:
Oh, come on.

No one in America today believes in a 6-10 thousand yr-old earth simply from the empirical evidence.

Stop pretending that this is about inconclusive evidence. That is an insult to other adults here.
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Uhm! how do you know for sure? Certainly not empirical evidence for a 6000 to 10,000 year old earth now but what will science discover in the future? For there is solid scientific empirical evidence that dinosaurs in Western USA are over 2000 times younger than what you and your pals claim. And some labs with very efficient AMS units have detected C-14 in diamonds that are NOT machine or lab generated contamination. Uhm, that suggests that internal earth generated diamonds allegedly up to 3 billion years old are 100,000 time younger than current assumptions suggest. Soooo I’d be sort of careful if I were you about making nasty remarks about some of your friends here on this or any other thread. You may have to eat diamonds and dinosaur bones one of these days instead of crow.

But of course you perhaps know more than any C-14 dating lab physicist who has discovered C-14 content in every fossil from Mastodon and mammoths in the 4,000 to 45,000 radiocarbon (RC) year range to dinosaur bone collagen in the 23,000 to 31,000 radiocarbon year range. Even diamonds, in the range of 55,000 +/- 1000 years to >80,000 RC years have been reported. One diamond broken into six pieces gave concordant RC ages of within 1000 years of 69,000. :cool:
 
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