On original sine, the actual differences, as far as I can tell, are very subtle - far more subtle than conflated “orgianl sin” with the “stain of original sin”.
I suppose that I am pretty inured and indifferent to that. ;)"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.
Being my same point throughout. Doesn’t really matter what one may interpret this A+O condundrum as, it wouldn’t have priority over the Savior. How?
Now translate this Western Theological understanding/wording into Eastern Theological understanding/wording.
The West and East were separated from each other for many years. You can’t push a Western teaching into the East without a proper translation.
Ok. Believe the Church’s teachings or You’ve lost the Catholic faith. Is that a sufficient translation?
I meant a translation of the teaching of the IC.
Isn’t it fun being in union with such understanding, humble, and loving Latins, you filthy Eastern heretics?
Wow … thats pretty strong language !! Was he serious, or bluffing ?
Yes. All sorts of religions (even pre-Christian) use prayer beads. They’re a counting device, nothing more or less.
)The “bead/knot counting” practice of the Church originated with the Desert Fathers. They would place place pebbles in a container to keep track of how many Psalms they had recited. This eventually was replaced by making a knot for each Psalm or prayer.Yes. All sorts of religions (even pre-Christian) use prayer beads. They’re a counting device, nothing more or less.
(and even if it weren’t, why would it concern you? There’s nothing wrong with borrowing something from another tradition, as long as you’re not profaning it or misusing it.
Ok. That Mary was preserved free from all stain of ancestral sin.
The East defines the doctrine of man’s “inclination towards sin, a heritage from the sin of our progenitors” and that this is removed through baptism. No one is guilty for the actual sin that Adam and Eve committed but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin (Greek: προπατορικό αμάρτημα).
That is why there is agreement between the east and west as shown in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the guilt or stain of original sin is analogical and there is no personal fault in it. Sin with personal fault is called actual sin by the Catholic Church.404 … It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
By the East, you mean the Orthodox. Faithful Eastern Catholics believe the Church’s teaching on the inheritance of the juridical guilt of original sin.
I accept all of the Councils myself and I love reading St Thomas Aquinas. However, the Eastern tradition has its own language/expressions of understanding the same truths as the West. Therefore, the IC is understood by some Eastern Catholics using of Eastern phrasiogy.
An Example of how the Theological language causes the East and West to define things differently:All this has been discussed, were past A+O, we are on X. The rest is already in this thread. For the sake of the circular argument does anyone have anything “new” to add.
Or are you saying this is what the EO said and its like that…this doesn’t indicate case closed, this indicates “mind closed”.
The point is very simple…
A. Mary is preserved at the moment of Christs conception.
B. Mary is preserved after Her birth, before the Incarnation.
C. Mary is preserved at the moment of Her conception.
I take C and conclude it is “most fitting” of our most perfect, all knowing, all Loving Lord,
Which point do others chose to debate from this lesser perspective of God which reduced God to his own law, which “HE placed” on Eve and Adam/man?
Remember He “knew you” before you were in your mothers womb.
That was very well stated by that ECF !! Why not leave it at that language…w/o trying to overreach into matters we can’t possibly know