The Elephant in our room

[pianistclare]

To ask how people can receive communion and be in a state of mortal sin with zero guilt about the matter. How do people rationalize the act behind such a serious teaching, and why is no one bringing this up.

Again, what is your intent?
To hold yourself up as some paragon of virtue from another “holier” forum?
You have been asked repeatedly in this and other threads that you have recently started to provide some hard data. Maybe you could walk right up to a REAL LIVE SINNER and ask them point blank. See how that goes. But coming on here and accusing all of us for not knowing how to be Catholic is not going to promote any fruitful dialog.
I guess I’ll not read any longer.

 

[HCTC]

Statistically, the vast bulk of users on this forum are engaged in the use of artificial contraception. So are many other devout Catholics who walk up to partake in communion everyday despite what the Church teaching is and it’s classification as a Mortal sin.

It’s everywhere, even the pre cana marriage classes I went to skipped over NFP, handed us a vague flier and made comments like “Artificial contraception is frowned on” or “I have a friend who uses NFP so feel free to call her”

I guess my question is, how do you personally rationalize your use of contraception not approved by Church authorities. I’m genuinely curious. How can we expect homosexuals to be chaste or tell young people not to have pre marital sex yet so many confirmed Catholics ignore this teaching?

This is an interesting question. I sincerely believe that Mary, the Holy Mother of God, was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. For that reason, it seems ridiculous to me that “artificial” birth control should be prohibited based on the premise that marriage should remain open to procreation. None of the artificial methods of which I am aware are 100% effective, and the Gospel demonstrates that even abstinence does not prevail against the will of God.

 

[pensmama87]

I don’t have any Catholic friends IRL who use contraception either.

I do, but they don’t regularly attend Mass or really practice their faith in any obvious way. But if you asked them what their religion was, they’d say “Catholic” right away - which is a problem with almost any survey of “Catholic views” on almost any issue.

But among my friends who regularly attend Mass, volunteer at the parish, are involved in other Catholic groups, etc? Nope, they don’t either. (And most of those are around my age - mid-20s to mid-30s.)

 

[Faithful_Seeker]

Again, what is your intent?
To hold yourself up as some paragon of virtue from another “holier” forum?
You have been asked repeatedly in this and other threads that you have recently started to provide some hard data. Maybe you could walk right up to a REAL LIVE SINNER and ask them point blank. See how that goes. But coming on here and accusing all of us for not knowing how to be Catholic is not going to promote any fruitful dialog.
I guess I’ll not read any longer.

I also certainly don’t know any Catholic women who use BC at all, like many other posters on here. I also would like to see some of this data.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Ok OP, you brought the elephant, now clean up after it…would appear referenced proofs or achange in original wording would be in order.

 

[Xantippe]

Ok OP, you brought the elephant, now clean up after it…would appear referenced proofs or achange in original wording would be in order.

Funny!

 

[Rico_S]

I don’t have any Catholic friends IRL who use contraception either.

I have lots of friends who do. They are weekly church goers, send kids to catholic schools, sit on board of the school, give outrageous amounts of money and time to parish/diocese + catholic charities. While the OP is wrong in his assessment of the regular CAFer, I think its clear that there is massive disagreement about contraception with Catholics in general…perhaps not the 1%ers and their close friends (unlikely any selection bias there lol), but it isn’t just the once a year church goers who disagree.

 

[MamaJewel]

While I agree that the truth and validity of the Church’s teachings are not dependent upon whether any of us follow them or not, I think it really does matter how, when, where and why those who profess the Church’s teachings to be true and valid conduct their lives.

Within the Church, youth and converts look at actions to be the basis for the validity of the truth, not necessarily the words being taught. (It is the natural instinct of human beings to learn behavioral/emotional patterns from the interactions in their environment versus the written and spoken rules of engagement.)

Rationalization is probably the biggest problem the Church in the West faces right now. The actions of too many Catholics are way out of line with church teaching. I write this from a convert’s perspective. It’s been 20 years since I started my journey into the catholic faith. Certainly the teachings I learned (catechism) are far removed from the actions I’ve seen. I genuinely tried to live these teachings and have paid dearly for it. And more often than not, it was my fellow catholics who behaved the worst about it.

I overlooked so much for the last 20 years that I can’t do it anymore. I have to speak my truth. The state of the Church in my area is horrific. Too many don’t even bother with the teachings anymore. Good luck finding a priest or Bishop who truly cares about the flock, much less a lost sheep. (However, the deacons do care. But then, they are “down in the trenches” with the rest of us.) When you do find a priest that is actually willing to lead versus giving lip service, that priest is likely to be from another nation where people still have reverence for God.

We are losing our youth to other denominations, other religions,and to agnosticism/atheism because they don’t see the Church’s teachings in action on a widespread level within the Church. Also, many catholics leave the Church for the same reasons (think of Hispanic/Latino populations). It’s a grievous situation for all involved.

 

[jlc2k2]

Statistically, the vast bulk of users on this forum are engaged in the use of artificial contraception. So are many other devout Catholics who walk up to partake in communion everyday despite what the Church teaching is and it’s classification as a Mortal sin.

It’s everywhere, even the pre cana marriage classes I went to skipped over NFP, handed us a vague flier and made comments like “Artificial contraception is frowned on” or “I have a friend who uses NFP so feel free to call her”

I guess my question is, how do you personally rationalize your use of contraception not approved by Church authorities. I’m genuinely curious. How can we expect homosexuals to be chaste or tell young people not to have pre marital sex yet so many confirmed Catholics ignore this teaching?

I’m sorry I can’t help you, OP. My husband and I don’t use contraception so I don’t personally have to rationalize it. We do use NFP to space births, which I “rationalize” by saying that we had our reasons (physical and mental health, financial, etc) and we discerned that it was the right thing for our family at the time.

Also, for those Catholic couples that I am close enough to know, none use contraception. It’s not something I run around asking people about though.

 

[EasterJoy]

To ask how people can receive communion and be in a state of mortal sin with zero guilt about the matter. How do people rationalize the act behind such a serious teaching, and why is no one bringing this up.

Could it be that this is only what you think? How can we be sure. Could it be that those members (however many) know they would be crucified if they admitted their birth control around these parts?

Again: What do you hope to accomplish by the question? What sort of answers did you realistically hope to get? You don’t seem to understand that this forum may not particularly appeal to people who know Church teaching and don’t want to live by it, but you do seem to get that nobody is going to want to come forward in order to have you “crucify” them, as you put it, for what you have decided in advance is a “zero guilt” mindset in which they “rationalize” what they are doing.

Are you offering mercy? Are you offering to listen? Are you offering something that will open their eyes or change their hearts? You’re already assuming the guilty targets of your question know very well what the teaching is, so I don’t think you’re planning to explain it better. If so, that isn’t likely to be the conclusion drawn by your intended audience. Your intended audience would read your question and think, “Sure. I’d love to have you throw a heaping pile of shame on my head…that is just what I need today! By all means, here I am, have at it!!”

If you have thought through where you hoped this thread was going to go, what sort of responses you were going to get, and what good the thread was realistically going to accomplish, please articulate that.

 

[Crusaderbear]

You are really asking how come people can be hypocrites. The contaceptive part is just your vehicle.

How can someone who has committed a grave sin in the eyes of the church walk up to the altar during a mass being celebrated by that same church and receive communion. The percentages aren’t important, really.

If you ever find an answer, you will be duly enshrined in the annals of clinical pyschology.

From my cynical perspective, its simply appearances are more important to them than substance. Only God will decide if they deserve eternal damnation for their actions.

Oh, ya missed a spot over in the corner where the elephant was sitting!

 

[EasterJoy]

I have lots of friends who do. They are weekly church goers, send kids to catholic schools, sit on board of the school, give outrageous amounts of money and time to parish/diocese + catholic charities. While the OP is wrong in his assessment of the regular CAFer, I think its clear that there is massive disagreement about contraception with Catholics in general…perhaps not the 1%ers and their close friends (unlikely any selection bias there lol), but it isn’t just the once a year church goers who disagree.

Yes, there are Catholics who consider themselves faithful to the faith and compliant with moral law who believe that they personally have the moral authority to take it upon themselves to differ with the Church on matters of faith and morals, including the sinfulness and certainly about the seriousness of offenses ranging from artificial contraception to the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days.

The ones who rationalize it normally cite a papal commissions of Pope St. John XXIII and Pope Paul VI that reasoned that the Pill would not violate Church teaching against contraception, as they believed (as the creator of the Pill did), that it met the standard of avoiding pregnancy purely by working with the chemistry of the body and human knowledge of how the Creator constructed the human person. They disagree with Pope Paul VI’s judgment that the moral theologians on the commission had an error in their moral reasoning. They deemed the Pill to be a variation on natural family planning, but the Pope deemed it to be a barrier method that used human ingenuity to defeat the divinely-intended and rhythmic connection between physical marital relations and procreation.

There was also widespread confusion about what Vatican II did and did not say. I have a relative who told me, “Nobody ever goes to confession any more.” She really believed that the need to confess sins had been dispensed with! So yes, OP, there is a lot of misinformation out there.

The thing is that if you believe yourself to have the authority to discern moral law by yourself, you don’t come to a resource like Catholic Answers to learn what the truth is. If you think you can figure it out for yourself and muddle along on your own sense of morals just fine, that is what you do.

 

[Allegra]

Could it be that this is only what you think? How can we be sure. Could it be that those members (however many) know they would be crucified if they admitted their birth control around these parts?

Digitally crucified?

Have you looked around here lately? Does it look like anyone is beating around the bush? That’s half the reason people go to anonymous forums to discuss things. They’re anonymous. You can say any outrageous thing (and people do) and no one can do anything to you because it’s an anonymous internet forum. I’m pretty sure if 90% of us were shamelessly contracepting left and right, we would be hearing about it. And even if one or two people are afraid to bring it up because they might make people they don’t even know mad at them, that wouldn’t even be the case if the vast majority of CAFers were in favor of ABC.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m sorry I can’t help you, OP. My husband and I don’t use contraception so I don’t personally have to rationalize it. We do use NFP to space births, which I “rationalize” by saying that we had our reasons (physical and mental health, financial, etc) and we discerned that it was the right thing for our family at the time.

Also, for those Catholic couples that I am close enough to know, none use contraception. It’s not something I run around asking people about though.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

Digitally crucified?

Have you looked around here lately? Does it look like anyone is beating around the bush? That’s half the reason people go to anonymous forums to discuss things. They’re anonymous. You can say any outrageous thing (and people do) and no one can do anything to you because it’s an anonymous internet forum. I’m pretty sure if 90% of us were shamelessly contracepting left and right, we would be hearing about it. And even if one or two people are afraid to bring it up because they might make people they don’t even know mad at them, that wouldn’t even be the case if the vast majority of CAFers were in favor of ABC.

Right.

 

[Allegra]

Right.

Plus, what’s the point of lying to strangers you’ll never meet?

That’s kind of a dumb hobby.

And if so many people lie to strangers for no reason, what keeps them honest on anonymous surveys that generate these “statistics”?

 

[Xantippe]

And if so many people lie to strangers for no reason, what keeps them honest on anonymous surveys that generate these “statistics”?

That is a very good catch.

 

[Saber_Mom]

My husband, a non-Catholic, had a vasectomy several years ago. It broke my heart. He is also a physician and has his preconceived notions about NFP, all wrong, but he would never change his mind.

I have never been pro-birth control. I have always wanted to learn and do NFP, but my husband was unwilling to even think about it. We got married 22 years ago when I thought i was Catholic, but I was really a CINO. I didn’t know any better. By the time the vasectomy was in question, I DID know better, but after counseling from two priests, many prayers and countless tears, I finally reluctantly agreed (did not promote at all) my husband going forward with this procedure. I did not take him there, nor drive him back home. This was his doing.

I talked with at least two different priests about this, because of this dilemma i had with my husband. I prayed and pray for him daily for his conversion. I pray for my conversion. I have cried many times in confession over this, and each priest told me that I need to pray for my husband. That I am not sinning. I also must say, I have a very rare autoimmune disease and being pregnant will cause me many problems. Not a great excuse, (I don’t feel it is), but it was strong enough for my husband.

To be honest with you, I feel like I AM sinning. But I also feel that if I turn my husband away because of this reason, I will be pushing him away from God even more-so. I’m in a huge conundrum. I have confessed this sin many times with every new priest I go to confession to and I don’t get much counseling other than to pray for my husband.

So I ask all of you to be gentle with me. And if you have kind advice, please offer it to me. I can’t see what I’m typing through my teary eyes, so I hope this all makes sense.

Thank you.

 

[MomaMary8]

Statistically, the vast bulk of users on this forum are engaged in the use of artificial contraception. So are many other devout Catholics who walk up to partake in communion everyday despite what the Church teaching is and it’s classification as a Mortal sin.

It’s everywhere, even the pre cana marriage classes I went to skipped over NFP, handed us a vague flier and made comments like “Artificial contraception is frowned on” or “I have a friend who uses NFP so feel free to call her”

I guess my question is, how do you personally rationalize your use of contraception not approved by Church authorities. I’m genuinely curious. How can we expect homosexuals to be chaste or tell young people not to have pre marital sex yet so many confirmed Catholics ignore this teaching?

Can’t say that I get accused of using birth control very often, or even ever! I do have a few sincere inquiries as to how I’ve managed to be open to life in my entire marriage.

As for feeling like a hypocrite before receiving communion…I feel that way often as I look at the cross as I patiently wait my turn in line. I just pray for His forgiveness and ask for His strength to be more worthy tomorrow.

 

[MomaMary8]

My husband, a non-Catholic, had a vasectomy several years ago. It broke my heart. He is also a physician and has his preconceived notions about NFP, all wrong, but he would never change his mind.

I have never been pro-birth control. I have always wanted to learn and do NFP, but my husband was unwilling to even think about it. We got married 22 years ago when I thought i was Catholic, but I was really a CINO. I didn’t know any better. By the time the vasectomy was in question, I DID know better, but after counseling from two priests, many prayers and countless tears, I finally agreed (did not promote at all) my husband going forward with this procedure. I did not take him there, nor drive him back home. This was his doing.

I talked with at least two different priests about this, because of this dilemma i had with my husband. I prayed and pray for him daily for his conversion. I pray for my conversion. I have cried many times in confession over this, and each priest told me that I need to pray for my husband. That I am not sinning. I also must say, I have a very rare autoimmune disease and being pregnant will cause me many problems. Not a great excuse, (I don’t feel it is), but it was strong enough for my husband.

To be honest with you, I feel like I am sinning. But I also feel that if I turn my husband away because of this reason, I will be pushing him away from God even more-so. I’m in a huge conundrum. I have confessed this sin many times with every new priest I go to confession to and I don’t get much counseling other than to pray for my husband.

So I ask all of you to be gentle with me. And if you have kind advice, please offer it to me. I can’t see what I’m typing through my teary eyes, so I hope this all makes sense.

Thank you.

I’ll join you in your prayers for your husband:console: