The End of False Religion is Near!

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Dear Jehovah’s Witness friend,

Would you like to stay for a while over time and discuss matters at another time on another thread about the Trinity or other issues? Such as the false teaching of an “invisible Church”?

I only have some Bible questions now. That are just asking your Organizations interpretation on.
  1. Why in the book of Genesis, does God refer to himself in the plural when speaking of creating Adam?: And God said," Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Genesis 1:26
  2. Who is the Son of Man and Son of God who keeps appearing in the OT? For example, to the three holy youths (Hananiah, Mishael, and Azaraiah) in the Firery Furnace? Daniel 3:25
    3)In the Holy Prophet Daniel’s vision of the Ancient Days, Who is the “Son of Man” who ascends to Him and is given dominion over all? Daniel 7:13
That’s just for starters.🙂
 
That is how you interpret the Word of God. That is not how I interpret it and see it. I think that you should do a google search for the word: Onanism and Coitus interruptus.

Coitus Interruptus means to pull out or withdrawal before the ejaculation. That is what Onan did, he withdrew. It’s because he withdrew and wasted his semen he was put to death.

What he did was NOT natural…that is why he was put to death.

Condoms also make the semen wasteful!! They like pulling out prevent the semen from entering the vagina.

Therefore condoms like Coitus Interruptus are a SIN in Gods eyes. Scripture is clear on that!!!
Well, that’s a belief that I will respect.
 
they so eloquently run from the subject of false predictions don’t they? why would you ganymede, want to stay in a belief that has falsely predicted the end of the world numerous times? why would you want to stay in a belief that claims to speak for God when in fact they do not?

why would you not want to question your own society about the errors it has taught? why wouldn’t you want to have independent thinking? why cling to a sinking boat? :banghead:
 
Dear Ganyemede,

But the “big crowd” was standing before God’s throne … so standing before God’s throne is not reserved for only 144,000. There was no description of the JW “paradise earth” anywhere in that passage on Revelation. In fact, that scene comes across as very unearthly to me, with angels, and elders and four living creatures.

And as the “big crowd” is mentioned in virtually the same breath as the 144,000, there’s no indication about separate destinies depending on which group you belong to. In fact, it appears to me that the 144,000 are going to eventually join up with the “big crowd.”

~~ the phoenix
 
Dear Jehovah’s Witness friend,

Would you like to stay for a while over time and discuss matters at another time on another thread about the Trinity or other issues? Such as the false teaching of an “invisible Church”?

I only have some Bible questions now.
  1. Why in the book of Genesis, does God refer to himself in the plural when speaking of creating Adam?: And God said,"** Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.**" Genesis 1:26
  2. Who is the Son of Man and Son of God who keeps appearing in the OT? For example, to the three holy youths (Hananiah, Mishael, and Azaraiah) in the Firery Furnace? Daniel 3:25
    3)In the Holy Prophet Daniel’s vision of the Ancient Days, Who is the “Son of Man” who ascends to Him and is given dominion over all? Daniel 7:13
That’s just for starters.🙂
  1. God was not alone. (Colossians 1:13-20) Jesus was there too. Oh! Don’t forget the angels too.
  2. Angels were called Sons of God on many occasions (Genesis 6:4) So it was an angel that delivered Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo.
  3. The Son of Man was none other than Jesus himself. When his Father would hand over the throne to him, and he would execute judgement as later mentioned in that same chapter.
 
Dear Ganyemede,

But the “big crowd” was standing before God’s throne … so standing before God’s throne is not reserved for only 144,000. There was no description of the JW “paradise earth” anywhere in that passage on Revelation. In fact, that scene comes across as very unearthly to me, with angels, and elders and four living creatures.

And as the “big crowd” is mentioned in virtually the same breath as the 144,000, there’s no indication about separate destinies depending on which group you belong to. In fact, it appears to me that the 144,000 are going to eventually join up with the “big crowd.”

~~ the phoenix
(Revelation 20:7) If this event occurs after Armegeddon, then why are there people on the Earth to mislead?
 
they so eloquently run from the subject of false predictions don’t they? why would you ganymede, want to stay in a belief that has falsely predicted the end of the world numerous times? why would you want to stay in a belief that claims to speak for God when in fact they do not?

why would you not want to question your own society about the errors it has taught? why wouldn’t you want to have independent thinking? why cling to a sinking boat? :banghead:
Well, it seems that you are interested in criticizing my faith. Let’s play fair.
 
Well, it seems that you are interested in criticizing my faith. Let’s play fair.
iam only telling the truth my friend. it is not criticism, it is the truth. the society has predicted falsely the end of the world, and that is public knowledge and not a criticism of any sort.iam playing fair. your belief criticizes us by calling us part of the world empire of false religion, and so on and on and on. Iam defending the truth, and only stating facts that are well known. your belief states that all religions other than yours are going down at armageddon for good. is that not a critiscism? one could certainly view it that way. one could also view the picture of a priest on your tract the end of false religion is near is a criticism…your belief is highly critical of others beliefs and that you cannot deny. iam only stating the truth. the society does not speak for God, it has made false predictions, and since it is not the truth, then God will eliminate it. so in fact it is a sinking ship.
 
Well, that’s a belief that I will respect.
**Thanks! **

I do hope that you read the medical data on Birth Control Pills, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant.

If you are going to be taking pills or put chemicals into your body then you should know exactly what they do right!?!?!

I don’t need a response from you re: the articles. I just want you to know that it’s good to have infromed conscience on these things. After all you don’t want to be killing an fertized egg right???

I know that this thread is long… so I’ll post the links one last time here so you know where to find the info. Of course this is just 2 examples. google search it, also, see what others have to say:

omsoul.com/pamphlet126.How-the-Pill-and-Other-Contraceptives-Work.html

prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html
 
Well, it seems that you are interested in criticizing my faith. Let’s play fair.
This is what you said was fair when we spoke of the tract earlier and you added your HAHA.
We expressed that we felt is was not charitable to depict Priests as they are in your tract, which is not fair. You made some remarks defending it.
Does not feel too good does it?
I dont think its unfair as long as its charitable and civil.
 
(Revelation 20:7) If this event occurs after Armegeddon, then why are there people on the Earth to mislead?
I do not see how your question refutes the points I made in my most recent post? You are welcome to explain, if you like.

One thing that’s coming back to me now though, as I think about it, from my former phone conversations with a JW, is that her sense of time and eternity was quite different than mine. I am approaching Revelation with the belief that when a person dies, his or her eternal destiny is made known through particular judgement … so that individual people can indeed enter an eternity of Heaven, or Hell, even as others are living on earth in time.

~~ the phoenix
 
well i have not been uncharitable hopefully. i think iam being civil. i only stated facts. we can find many of the witness publications that ridicule our belief and others. when i said it was a sinking ship it is. iam sorry if the comment offended but that is how i see it. truth stands, lies do not. truth has always existed falsity does not. truth cannot change and will not change, lies change and lies cannot stand against truth. truth ever lives on, lies do not.
 
Hmmmm, and speaking of time … I’m afraid I’m out of it for tonight … * glances at the clock * … The alarm clock will ring early for work.
  • bows goodnight to Marilena, Ganyemede, and all discussion participants and heads out into the restfulness of a cool autumn night *
~~ the phoenix
 
Good night!

Me too. I am too tierd to continue this but would love to another time!🙂
I enjoy the Bible and like talking about all things that can help us understand our faith better.

Thanks everyone!🙂
 
Noah had to wait 70 years for his flood, I guess I’ll have to do the same.
But you know what…
How much longer do you really think all this is going to last anyways?
If you believe in Jesus’ teachings, which I know you do…then you know as well as I that he never lied, and he said it would “come as a thief in the night…”
Just when we don’t expect it…
Ganyemede,
But if the generation DOES pass away - will you listen to God’s warning in Duet 18:20 where He identifies a false prophet and accept that the WTBS are false prophets? Becasuse for years & years they said the generation would NOT pass away.

Wouldn’t that be a HUGE unfufilled prophecy?
 
  1. God was not alone. (Colossians 1:13-20) Jesus was there too. Oh! Don’t forget the angels too.
  2. Angels were called Sons of God on many occasions (Genesis 6:4) So it was an angel that delivered Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo.
  3. The Son of Man was none other than Jesus himself. When his Father would hand over the throne to him, and he would execute judgement as later mentioned in that same chapter.
Thanks for your answers on that list. I hope you will be around to answer some more about the Bible.

Thank you again.🙂
 
Let me ask you this. Maybe you can share your insight on the matter.

Is there a scripture that proves birth control wrong?

Pardon me for being a little explicit, but isn’t using the rhythm method a form of having sex without producing children?

Is that taking advantage of God’s gift too?

I know that some use the rhythm method as their choice of birth control…but isn’t that exactly what it is? Birth Control? Without the pill?
God gave women the menstrual cycle.

A couple using the rhythym control method are simply using God’s natural creation to plan pregnancies, however they are still open to God’s will, for they know it might not work and pregnancy may occur.

The birth control pill shuts off God’s will. And is man made.
 
Hi Ganyemede, and welcome to Catholic Answers Forums !!!
The debates we have with non-Catholics sometimes become very spirited, so please don’t feel like you are being attacked, because that is not our intention. (You should see some of our verbal fisticuffs with our Muslim or protestant fundamentalist forum guests !!! )

About the 144,000 in Revelation,
the Watchtower Society takes that NUMBER literally, but they don’t take literally anything ELSE that Revelation says about the 144,000. Scripture says that they are
  1. JEWISH
  2. MALES
  3. HAVE NEVER HAD SEX, i.e., in fact they are VIRGINS.
    The Watchtower doesn’t interpret those things literally, only the number, 144,000, itself, which is strange. By the way, did you know that the number of “anointed” JWs has gone up from about 5,000 in the 1980s to over 7,000 now? This is strange if all the 144,000 were chosen by 1935 (when God THEN decided to reveal the Great Crowd doctrine because all the anointed had been sealed).
I interpret the number 144,000 as being a symbolic number, symbolic of the large and complete figure of Jewish people who are saved, from the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob right down to the present time. I believe that the Great Crowd are the Gentiles.

We Catholics believe in a New Heaven and a New Earth for those resurrected with glorified, spiritualized bodies (our bodies, only glorified). This present earth is not the one we’re going to have, at least not in it’s present, purely natural form.
We don’t believe that New Heavens and a New Earth merely means a change from Human to Divine Government.

Thanks for visiting the forums !!
Peace and God bless,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
 
There’s a lot of good scriptual references here, so kudos to you.

This could be a really long post, so I’ll do my best here.

(Matt 25:41) If you start with vs 31, Jesus is explaining the events of final judgement of mankind. Sheep and the Goats. Sheep are those counted worthy, goats those who are not.
Those who are counted worthy during judgement will inherit the kingdom.
Those who are counted unworthy are prepared for an everlasting fire.
Here is what I see in Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. … … 41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. … … 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
Ok, so “all nations” are gathered, in other words everyone, and they go into one of two categories, sheep or goats. Its important to note that the contrast explicitly stated…EVERLASTING life VS. EVERLASTING fire, from this we can NOT conclude everlasting life vs temporary fire, the everlasting applies to both cases. Also in case you misunderstand this doesnt have to mean a literal fire, its figurative, as v30 and v46 indicate the punishment entails a everlasting separation from God. Everyone either goes to the kingdom or to hell according to this teaching by Jesus.
This is not the first time that this parallel is described. Revelation 19:14 also describes those who were not in the book of life would be cast into a lake of fire.
So does an unrighteous person burn eternally then?
Personally, I look at the logic of it. In the beginning of vs 14, it says that death and hades would too be cast into the lake of fire.
I don’t think it makes sense that death would burn forever, since it’s not a person or a figure. Death is a condition.
Could the Lake of Fire be figurative like most things are in Revelation? As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we say yes.
We believe that the Lake of Fire is symbolic for eternal destruction and permanent death, not as a literal place of torment.
Im guessing you meant Rev 20:14. In that same chapter I noticed this in 20:10 “And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Again we see a clear reference to eternal punishment “for ever and ever”, no sign at all of a temporary punishment, infact physical human death has no effect on the devil.
As for “death and hades” here is what I see:13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. **This means the second death, the lake of fire.**15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.
The “second death” is where physical death (what you call “death as a condition”) is destroyed but as v10 and v15 point out it is also the place of eternal punishment for evil doers.

Now that I think about it how can you even believe in a SECOND death? If they are dead (if no immortal soul and their body has already literally decayed that leaves literally nothing left to bring back to life) there is no need to bring them back and elimiate them again. But in v13 it clearly says they will be JUDGED individually, only through an immortal soul can a person who has already died be “judged accordingo to their deeds”.

Catholics believe as the Bible teaches man was made in Gods image, that image was an immortal soul He gave each of us and infused that soul to a physical flesh and bone body, at PHYSICAL death the soul separates from the flesh and bone body.

(cont)
 
The 2nd reference that was used was taken from (1 Pet 3:19)
That’s a very interesting scripture because it reinforces another belief that we hold.
The condition of the dead.
Peter here makes reference to Jesus preaching to some spirits in prison.
The best question is who these spirits are?
We believe in the harmony of the Hebrew scriptures teaching that when a person dies, he is conscious of nothing and is asleep.
I will not quote scriptures, since I don’t want to sound too preachy, but if you want some; I’ll definately include them.

So, if you follow my line of thinking that the dead are conscious of nothing at all. Who are the spirits? Is it a contradiction?

If you continue on to vs 20, it gives more info. Disobedient ones during Noah’s Day. We believe that these ones that are in prison, are the angels that left heaven to go marry the daughters of men, as described in Genesis.
When Noah’s flood was occuring, those angels that had taken the form of men, saw they were doomed, so they tried to go back to heaven. However, they were not allowed to return to heaven. So they are imprisoned, awaiting judgement.
Jesus, went to minister to them. Who knows what Jesus said…
Well first of all what about the other verse I provided in conjunction with this one…1 Peter 4:6 “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” This clearly doesnt indicate these dead were helpless evil angels, rather it appears the opportunity of being saved is very real. Now compare this with 1 Peter 3 “18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed” There is a clear paralell to 3:18-19 and 4:6, both contrast the fleshy death with spiritual life.

The disobedient people in Noahs day was literally everyone on earth, thats why God mentions He will destroy all men. The ones who were preached to by Jesus must have either been undeserving of eternal punishment, eg infants/children or even evil people who saw the rain and repented in time but still lost their lives as a temporary penalty.
(Revelation 6:9-11) Is describing ones that were slaughtered on the basis of Jesus name? Who are they?
Revelation chapter 7:1 identifies these ones as a specific group of persons, not just to the entirety of mankind. If you look at vs 11, it speaks of them waiting while their number is sealed. What number?
Chapter 7 opens with them being part of a group of 144,000.
So there would be those that would be resurrected to see heaven, yes. However, we do not believe all persons are destined to heaven. Neither do we believe that there is life after death. When a person dies, he simply falls asleep in death.
Here is the passage:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
The concern of this passage for me is what you mention in your last two lines above. In v11 it says these souls speaking in v10 were the souls of dead martyrs, it makes it clear there were people on earth living physical lives who were going to get martyred as well. There is clearly life after death because “a white robe was given to each of them”, this is figurative language indicating Heavenly rewards.

As for the 144000, it says those are from the tribes of Israel and lists 12 tribes in verses 5-8. One very interesting note, what gives you the idea that the 144000 isnt itself symbolic? 12 is a perfect number throughout Scripture as is 1000 a perfect number. Given this 144000 is simply a multiple of 12 and 12x1000…indicating there is a perfection of members, not necessarily a strict count of 144000.

(cont)
 
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