The end of Protestantism

[Stilldreamn]

I don’t see Protestantism disappearing - but I do think that conservative, traditional forms of Protestant churches may be marginalized and shrink. It seems that every day brings a news article on yet another Protestant clergyman embracing “marriage equality” which provides more fodder to the media to label traditional Christians as bigots and haters.

Are we being herded to shelter within the Catholic or Orthodox churches which still stand firmly on God’s Word? It would seem so.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I don’t see Protestantism disappearing - but I do think that conservative, traditional forms of Protestant churches may be marginalized and shrink. It seems that every day brings a news article on yet another Protestant clergyman embracing “marriage equality” which provides more fodder to the media to label traditional Christians as bigots and haters.

Are we being herded to shelter within the Catholic or Orthodox churches which still stand firmly on God’s Word? It would seem so.

Interesting. I kind of see the opposite occurring here in Fargo. The liberal minded congregations are actually shrinking and the conservative traditional ones are thriving. Therebis an Episcopal congregation here that is openly friendly to the LGBT community. When I say openly I mean that they have a float in the Gay pride parade, have rainbows on banners in their church…etc. I know of 3 gay people that attend there and two work for the congregation. Both are wonderful guys and I am not bad mouthing them. Now that congregation is really shrinking while the conservative Episcopal congregations are expanding.

 

[steve_b]

Well then I am glad you are apart of the Catholic Church that you believe is the One True Chur h.

It’s provable #34
a:

I am also apart of the Church Jesus Christ established on earth. It is called the Christian Church.

Excerpt (all emphasis mine)
“…to be a Church the community must be “legitimate”; they are legitimate when they are “united with their pastors”. What does this mean? In the first place, no one can make a Church by himself. A group cannot simply get together, read the New Testament and declare: “At present we are the Church because the Lord is present wherever two or three are gathered in His name”.The element of “receiving” belongs essentially to the Church, just as faith comes from “hearing” and is not the result of one’s decision or reflection. Faith is a converging with something I could neither imagine nor produce on my own; faith has to come to meet me. We call the structure of this encounter, a “Sacrament”. It is part of the fundamental form of a sacrament that it be received and not self-administered. No one can baptize himself. No one can ordain himself. No one can forgive his own sins. Perfect repentance cannot remain something interior—of its essence it demands the form of encounter of the Sacrament. This too is a result of a sacrament’s fundamental structure as an encounter [with Christ]…”

for full context https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECCV2.HTM

Thus since Protestantism is 100% manmade, by Luther, Henry VIII, Calvin, Smyth, etc etc, 1500+ years after Jesus established HIS Church, they can’t establish themselves, because they weren’t established by God, and can’t claim legitimacy

 

[aidanbradypop]

It’s provable #34

Excerpt (all emphasis mine)
“…to be a Church the community must be “legitimate”; they are legitimate when they are “united with their pastors”. What does this mean? In the first place, no one can make a Church by himself. A group cannot simply get together, read the New Testament and declare: “At present we are the Church because the Lord is present wherever two or three are gathered in His name”.The element of “receiving” belongs essentially to the Church, just as faith comes from “hearing” and is not the result of one’s decision or reflection. Faith is a converging with something I could neither imagine nor produce on my own; faith has to come to meet me. We call the structure of this encounter, a “Sacrament”. It is part of the fundamental form of a sacrament that it be received and not self-administered. No one can baptize himself. No one can ordain himself. No one can forgive his own sins. Perfect repentance cannot remain something interior—of its essence it demands the form of encounter of the Sacrament. This too is a result of a sacrament’s fundamental structure as an encounter [with Christ]…”

for full context https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECCV2.HTM

Thus since Protestantism is 100% manmade, by Luther, Henry VIII, Calvin, Smyth, etc etc, 1500+ years after Jesus established HIS Church, they can’t establish themselves, because they weren’t established by God, and can’t claim legitimacy

thanks pal

 

[spedteacherita]

Hence the phrase “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation”.

That seems to be a personal “interpretation” of that section of the Bible - I was told that the Catholic Church doesn’t stand by that interpretation and that there is salvation for the “separated brethren.”

Peace,

Rita

 

[aidanbradypop]

That seems to be a personal “interpretation” of that section of the Bible - I was told that the Catholic Church doesn’t stand by that interpretation and that there is salvation for the “separated brethren.”

Peace,

Rita

Just smile and say thank you.

 

[spedteacherita]

I questioned my beliefs, that’s why I’m a convert. Many people don’t question their beliefs, it’s just “how they were raised.” It is ignorance, not stupidity.

Take a chill pill. Did you really think that a question about the end of protestantism on a catholic site would praise protestantism?

I think one questioning their beliefs is very important but not all people will do that and I don’t think God intended them to have to. I don’t question my beliefs to the extent that I will leave Jesus but only to find the best way to serve Him. The more I know Him the better I’m able to serve and to share Him with others.

I’m sure none of the posters here would think that a thread entitled as it is would be singing the praise of Protestantism but, if they’re like me, it would bring up a bit of ire. It’s the last thing any of us should be doing is having an argument about something we all know is not going to end. There are far too many good and faithful Christians among the Protestant Churches to ever see that happen. Admittedly, there are churches who shouldn’t even be called Christian that are taking good people along with them - and that is the problem of any of our churches not catechizing the people about who Jesus really is.

I don’t have any statistics to account what is happening within Protestant or Catholic churches but even in my own hometown here we are seeing 4 Catholic Churches having to combine into 1 because of the lack of priests, money, and memberships.

This arguing among ourselves does nothing but show those who need Jesus that it’s not a safe place - we’re not being good representatives of Jesus.

Let’s find ways of building,

In Christ,

Rita

 

[aidanbradypop]

I questioned my beliefs, that’s why I’m a convert. Many people don’t question their beliefs, it’s just “how they were raised.” It is ignorance, not stupidity.

Take a chill pill. Did you really think that a question about the end of protestantism on a catholic site would praise protestantism?

If a person is raised Catholic and does not questions their beliefs, is that also ignorance as well?

 

[spedteacherita]

Just smile and say thank you.

Thank you, Dustin.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

If a person is raised Catholic and does not questions their beliefs, is that also ignorance as well?

I didn’t grow up Catholic, but from what I understand CCD classes aren’t like Sunday school. Where you just learn bible stories. So, if you were raised in the Truth and had a proper classes, what is there to question? I was taught that 1+1=2 in school. No since in questioning an absolute truth.

 

[Della]

That seems to be a personal “interpretation” of that section of the Bible - I was told that the Catholic Church doesn’t stand by that interpretation and that there is salvation for the “separated brethren.”

Peace,

Rita

The Church has clarified what the phrase means in the Catechism, and you are right that there is the possibility of salvation for Protestants, as there is for non-Christians (although Protestants have a “leg up” in their having been baptized). This is due to the fact that Jesus’ death on the cross redeemed all mankind, not just those who believe. Salvation is possible because of the redemption. People confuse redemption with salvation, which makes them think that no one outside visible memership in the Church may be saved.

As to Protestantism disappearing, it’s possible–anything is possible when men form religious associations. But, God does use Protestant bodies to help people gain salvation, so I don’t see Protestantism dying out unless all Protestant bodies should deny the divinity of Christ and give into the blandishments of the world, the flesh, and the devil. And that is not probable.

That can’t happen in the Catholic Church because it was founded by Christ. No matter how bad popes might be, or how many Catholics are lax/secularized, no matter who tries to destroy it from within and without, it is Christ’s Church build on Christ but run by men with his authority. It may look like it is going off the rails, but no matter how far it may lean/teeter to one side or another, it always rights itself, by the power of the Holy Spirit, and continues on. It doesn’t depend on the faithfulness/rightness of men at all. That’s it’s mystery and it’s glory.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I didn’t grow up Catholic, but from what I understand CCD classes aren’t like Sunday school. Where you just learn bible stories. So, if you were raised in the Truth and had a proper classes, what is there to question? I was taught that 1+1=2 in school. No since in questioning an absolute truth.

That didn’t answer my question. I was taught 1+1=2 as well in Sunday school.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

That didn’t answer my question. I was taught 1+1=2 as well in Sunday school.

I thought I did. I said I didn’t see why someone, if properly taught, shouldn’t have to question. I think having a question and questioning are different.

I wasn’t taught math in Sunday school.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I thought I did. I said I didn’t see why someone, if properly taught, shouldn’t have to question. I think having a question and questioning are different.

I wasn’t taught math in Sunday school.

Eh. Each their own I suppose

 

[steve_b]

That seems to be a personal “interpretation” of that section of the Bible - I was told that the Catholic Church doesn’t stand by that interpretation and that there** is** salvation for the “separated brethren.”

Peace,

Rita

• Told by whom?
• Salvation in the case you mention, is stated as a possibility, not an affirmative. It depends on one’s ignorance being completely innocent about the necessity to be in the Catholic Church. One can see this by looking at this in reverse. If it doesn’t matter which direction a person chooses, then the following couldn’t be said

"Full Question

If a Catholic converts to another religion, will he attain heaven? The debate in our family is that the Lord will still accept the fact that he is practicing a religion even though he converted. My answer to them is that he will not attain heaven, although how can I judge?

Answer

Ultimately, you cannot judge since you do not know for certain the state of the person’s conscience. This does not mean, however, that you cannot or should not warn the individual against the gravely dangerous course of action he is undertaking.
The First Vatican Council pointed out that in addition to intellectual arguments for the truth of the Catholic faith, God “confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light *, so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned” (*Decree on the Catholic Faith *3).
Those who have embraced the Catholic faith are thus in a special position because of the extra grace they are given in maintaining their faith.
The situation of those who, by the heavenly gift of faith, have embraced the Catholic truth is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the Church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question. (*Decree on the Catholic Faith *3)
The bottom line is that for one who has embraced the Catholic faith and who has not lost the use of reason, God will always provide the grace and evidence necessary maintain his adherence to the Catholic faith.
If such a person does not maintain this adherence then either (a) he never embraced the Catholic faith, (b) he has since lost the use of reason (either generally or in relation to this subject), or (c) he abandoned the faith through his own fault, in which case he will bear the eternal consequence of doing so.

Which of these is the case in a particular instance is something that we in this life are unable to determine due to our inability to read consciences."

From:
catholic.com/quickquestions/if-someone-leaves-the-church-for-another-religion-can-he-still-be-saved*

 

[Tommy999]

While the endless bickering continues between Protestants and Catholics, much to the delight of Satan, I suspect we are living in the times described in Matthew 24:11-13:

11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

I see efforts by the evil one to attack elements within many Protestant denominations to radically change or do away with long-established truths and replace them with manmade humanistic reasoning, such as so-called gay marriage, abortion, and the replacement of the Gospel of Christ with the ‘Social Gospel’.

For example, I can hardly recognize my old denomination that I left decades ago (Presbyterian Church, USA) because of all of its liberal theology. A church service there now resembles a social gospel seminar in which liberation theology and ‘Meals on Wheel’ are taught instead of preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. – I Corinthians 2;2

I even heard some Catholic parishes are like that, although I don’t have any first-hand experience with that. Perhaps some Catholics can clarify that.

I don’t have anything against organizations like Meals on Wheels, by the way. I used to drive my mother around town doing that from time to time.

May heaven help all Christians, both Protestant and Catholic. We need it.

 

[spedteacherita]

While the endless bickering continues between Protestants and Catholics, much to the delight of Satan, I suspect we are living in the times described in Matthew 24:11-13:

11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

I see efforts by the evil one to attack elements within many Protestant denominations to radically change or do away with long-established truths and replace them with manmade humanistic reasoning, such as so-called gay marriage, abortion, and the replacement of the Gospel of Christ with the ‘Social Gospel’.

For example, I can hardly recognize my old denomination that I left decades ago (Presbyterian Church, USA) because of all of its liberal theology. A church service there now resembles a social gospel seminar in which liberation theology and ‘Meals on Wheel’ are taught instead of preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. – I Corinthians 2;2

I even heard some Catholic parishes are like that, although I don’t have any first-hand experience with that. Perhaps some Catholics can clarify that.

I don’t have anything against organizations like Meals on Wheels, by the way. I used to drive my mother around town doing that from time to time.

May heaven help all Christians, both Protestant and Catholic. We need it.

Amen! I apologize for arguing senselessly because that is what the enemy loves to see…We spend our time and energies on bickering within Christian groups and non-Christians looking on don’t see a safe place for their spiritual souls.

To the other posters on here I am truly not here to fight but to learn and I apologize for causing any problems here.

In Christ,

Rita

God bless

 

[Della]

While the endless bickering continues between Protestants and Catholics, much to the delight of Satan, I suspect we are living in the times described in Matthew 24:11-13:

11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

I see efforts by the evil one to attack elements within many Protestant denominations to radically change or do away with long-established truths and replace them with manmade humanistic reasoning, such as so-called gay marriage, abortion, and the replacement of the Gospel of Christ with the ‘Social Gospel’.

For example, I can hardly recognize my old denomination that I left decades ago (Presbyterian Church, USA) because of all of its liberal theology. A church service there now resembles a social gospel seminar in which liberation theology and ‘Meals on Wheel’ are taught instead of preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. – I Corinthians 2;2

I even heard some Catholic parishes are like that, although I don’t have any first-hand experience with that. Perhaps some Catholics can clarify that.

I don’t have anything against organizations like Meals on Wheels, by the way. I used to drive my mother around town doing that from time to time.

May heaven help all Christians, both Protestant and Catholic. We need it.

Indeed, all Christians who hold to the truth are under attack now days, and many have given into the pressures of society in the mistaken understanding that “that’s what Jesus would want/do.” It’s a false kindness–a capitulation to the infirmities of man instead of giving them the remedies. It’s as if doctors suddenly decided that broken arms didn’t need to set, but “accepted” because setting bones can be painful. It’s not reasonable, but since so many have faith based in feelings and not in reason, they buy into these ideas without thinking them through.

Having written that, though, the major difference in the Church is that she is not a democracy in which doctrines can be changed by majority vote. The Church must teach what Christ and the Apotles handed down to us and nothing else, no matter how much societies change or what the secular world demands. This is why there are so many martyrs in the Church–because she will not capitulate under any circumstances.

 

[Tommy999]

Indeed, all Christians who hold to the truth are under attack now days, and many have given into the pressures of society in the mistaken understanding that “that’s what Jesus would want/do.” It’s a false kindness–a capitulation to the infirmities of man instead of giving them the remedies. It’s as if doctors suddenly decided that broken arms didn’t need to set, but “accepted” because setting bones can be painful. It’s not reasonable, but since so many have faith based in feelings and not in reason, they buy into these ideas without thinking them through…

Excellent analogy, Della. I don’t want to accept a broken bone. I want mine to be set and heal.

Having written that, though, the major difference in the Church is that she is not a democracy in which doctrines can be changed by majority vote. The Church must teach what Christ and the Apotles handed down to us and nothing else, no matter how much societies change or what the secular world demands. This is why there are so many martyrs in the Church–because she will not capitulate under any circumstances.

Are there many Catholic parishes that emphasize a social gospel more than I Cor 2;2 or are they in the minority? I hope they are in the minority.

 

[Della]

Excellent analogy, Della. I don’t want to accept a broken bone. I want mine to be set and heal.

:yup: Me too!

Are there many Catholic parishes that emphasize a social gospel more than I Cor 2;2 or are they in the minority? I hope they are in the minority.

Well, it depends on the parish’s location–more liberal states tend, in general, to have parishes that predominently emphasize the social aspects of the Gospel. Here in MN we have some of those. A couple the archbishop decided were going too far and so repressed some of their outreach programs, sacked their boards and changed priests. Parishes can and do change emphasis based on who they have for a senior pastor and what the people want. There is a great deal of leeway within dioceses from quite traditional (some to the point of being more Catholic than the pope) to ones teetering on the edge of heterodoxy. The bishop has to decide how to deal with all of them.

It used to be that parishes were pretty much the same before Vatican II. Some took VII as an excuse to run after all kinds of secular goals/agendas, but the pedulum is definitely swinging back toward orthodoxy. The thing that we have to remember is that no one parish is “The Church” but rather a small part of a much greater whole. No matter how many parishes deviate from orthodoxy (to left or right), with the mistaken idea that they know better than the Church, the Church stays the same. Eventually such parishes will return to being faithful or they’ll die out. That’s happened to many that embraced the “spirit of VII” which was really not VII but rebellion based on the mores of society.