The end of Protestantism

[Memaw]

You overlooked the sarcasm

It’s a bit difficult to hear that in the print ! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Lucretius]

While the endless bickering continues between Protestants and Catholics, much to the delight of Satan, I suspect we are living in the times described in Matthew 24:11-13:

11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

I see efforts by the evil one to attack elements within many Protestant denominations to radically change or do away with long-established truths and replace them with manmade humanistic reasoning, such as so-called gay marriage, abortion, and the replacement of the Gospel of Christ with the ‘Social Gospel’.

For example, I can hardly recognize my old denomination that I left decades ago (Presbyterian Church, USA) because of all of its liberal theology. A church service there now resembles a social gospel seminar in which liberation theology and ‘Meals on Wheel’ are taught instead of preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. – I Corinthians 2;2

I even heard some Catholic parishes are like that, although I don’t have any first-hand experience with that. Perhaps some Catholics can clarify that.

I don’t have anything against organizations like Meals on Wheels, by the way. I used to drive my mother around town doing that from time to time.

May heaven help all Christians, both Protestant and Catholic. We need it.

The Social Gospel is not so much a replacement of the Gospel as a reduction of it to whatever agrees with the current fads. It’s basically the carving of false Christs out of the Real Christ.

The Gospel certainly calls for helping the poor, the sick, and working for Justice. However, that’s not the whole of it, and those aspects should work together with the rest of the Gospel as an integrated whole. We need the “sin and fear of the Lord” part of the Gospel, as well as the other things that those of our culture would call “hard sayings.”

We can’t pin parts of the Gospel against other parts! We can’t pin Christ against Christ! As Christ points out, Satan is certainly not fragmented and divided…

You should read G. K. Chesterton. His entire body of works can be thought of as calling all of this out quite convincingly and completely:

cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/index.html

Start with Orthodoxy, and you might need to read him a couple of times until you get what he’s saying.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Ignatius]

If a person is raised Catholic and does not questions their beliefs, is that also ignorance as well?

Very much so. If you don’t, then you’re just borrowing the faith. At some point you have to own your Faith and find the answers to your questions and know that it is The Church founded by Jesus Christ.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Very much so. If you don’t, then you’re just borrowing the faith. At some point you have to own your Faith and find the answers to your questions and know that it is The Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Awesome! Glad we are both Christian and worship our Lord and Savior

 

[AdjutorSwim]

Do you think Protestantism will die out? I think so.

In the very long term maybe. But not so fast.

• I say this tongue in cheek: Protestantism “sounds so good, it has to be true.” After all, it makes sense that the Bible is the only authority on faith and morals, right? Salvation is guaranteed if we believe, and we are saved by faith, not works, right? So the Catholic faith is a works-based salvation and therefore wrong, right? I now disagree with these things. But these are the teachings Protestants grow up with. Most never question them enough to turn Catholic.
• Mass is intimidating and unknown to Protestants. The idea that Mary has a high position is absolute sacrilege to Protestants, although the Hail Mary is a direct Bible quote! Also the relative lack of Biblical knowledge of Catholics is unimpressive to Protestants. Wanna convert them? Out-Bible them.
• The entertainment factor of Protestant churches will always be a draw, and draws in less educated people. Most Catholic converts today converted due to their intellectual analysis. Not too many with only a high school diploma convert from another faith.
• A lot was said when Swedish prominent Evangelical Ulf Ekman converted to Catholicism. But the Evangelical church he founded has grown bigger since his departure. Such is the continuing power of Protestantism.

I recently converted so I want the CC to succeed, but Protestantism isn’t just gonna lie down and give up. The Church has a lot of work to do.

 

[WT1]

The (nearest thing which we have to) official version in Anglicanism is “Reason + Tradition + Scripture”. Methodists have a similar set, although some add “+ Experience”. I believe that Lutherans also have a similar set.

In addition, there are other Protestants who have similar processes without the formalised label. Sola scriptura is a catchy phrase, but it does not actually operate all that much: scriptura et alia (“and other things”) is far more common.

1. “Reason+Tradition+Scripture” does not meet my definition of Authority. Where is the leadership, the catechism, the law or true authority to interpret the scriptures. If two Anglican priest disagree who decides who is correct?
2. I was Methodist for 12 years they let people believe whatever they want. I’ve heard a bishop in the United Methodist Church teach that hell is not a real place and everyone is saved. Shortly after I was looking for a new church home.

 

[JonNC]

=Goya;12879680]

IMO, Protestantism will never end, because it is profitable to individual pastors.

This was a large impetus for Martin Luther, who visibly suffered as he saw the collection plates pass by, and could not partake…and it remains perpetually fuel for believers to stake their claim to this doctrinal hang-up or that, as the justification for opening up their own “franchise”, without any franchise fees–this is becoming even more apparent, as the ‘non-denoms’ have demonstrated (mainline would have the equivalent of ‘franchise fees’, and certainly franchise regs). Pardon my cynicism.

Cynicism aside, just a few facts.
Regarding the pay of the typical LCMS pastor:

For more on this topic, including how to compare apples-to-apples a “salary package” that you see in normal church budgets with normal “salaries” that most laymen are familiar with, see Part 2 of this post on PMnotes. Quick summary: A $42,000 pastoral compensation package is the same as a $29,405 take home salary with a nice benefits package.

How about Catholic parish priests.

The Diocese of San Jose, California, has a recently published “Parish Compensation Program,” a handbook designed to assist the Diocese of San Jose’s pastors, parish administrators, and staff “to administer the salaries of those working with them in an equitable and consistent manner.” For priests, the “basic stipend” this year is $32,616, with a grant of $600 for a “study week,” another grant of $500 for the annual spiritual retreat, and a contribution of $11,718 to the retirement fund.

Rather comparable, ISTM. The perception that protestant pastors resemble the TV evangelist / mega-church types doesn’t stand up well to the reality of the typical parish pastor or minister. I know first hand, as I was raised in a pastor’s house.

Add to this how many families are do deeply entrenched generationally, that to reject the faith of your families, is to admit that your grand parents and great grandparents…were dead wrong…that’s just not realistic. E.g.–we still have Judaism; and Judaism still has us.

True in the first part. Baptized, confirmed, and raised Lutheran, and educated at a Lutheran college, I am very much acculturated Lutheran. The second part is clearly overstated, in that even if I moved to another tradition within the Church, that doesn’t mean my father and family were “dead wrong”. It may mean the Spirit moved in my life in ways He did not with other members of my family.

IMHO, there is a place for Protestantism in the Church, though I have a heck of a time figuring out what it is. What I foresee ultimately, is not an annihilation or extermination of Protestantism, but a reconciliation of a significant number of protestant churches, with the Catholic Church. Something that would entail private profitability to the protestant clergy, the Sacraments, and a clear delineation of the Pope’s authority over the merged Protestant churches. But that’s clearly pure conjecture, and optimistic at that (I have a weak spot for our separated brethren, particularly being married to one, whose family has several pastors).

These observations have their merits.

Jon

 

[Tomyris]

This reminds me of threads on other forums about “The End of Catholicism”…

If you want CAF to be a mirror of some of the worst Protestant forums, this is a good start.

 

[aidanbradypop]

This reminds me of threads on other forums about “The End of Catholicism”…

If you want CAF to be a mirror of some of the worst Protestant forums, this is a good start.

I was thinking the exact same.

Speaks volumns IMO

 

[LutheranScholar]

This reminds me of threads on other forums about “The End of Catholicism”…

If you want CAF to be a mirror of some of the worst Protestant forums, this is a good start.

Exactly. It’s a foolish thought anyway. Protestantism isn’t going anywhere. Why should it? We’re pretty zealous in disseminating the Christian Message to the world.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I don’t know if it will disappear. Mainline protestant churches which are adopting liberalism seem to be falling apart and I suspect the more conservative churches will manage to hang on. When you have people who truely believe, even if they are small it’s difficult to see them completely gone (Unless by persecution and I hope that doesn’t happen.)

If it did disappear, it would only bring good for Christendom and the Gospel could be more easily spread.

 

[cheezey]

Thankfully, ‘both’ have a bit in common:

Christ has died.
Christ is risen.
Christ will come again

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Do you think Protestantism will die out? I think so.

Probably someday. But the Law and the gospel won’t die out, and that’s the important thing.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by smead2942
Do you think Protestantism will die out? I think so.

Before criticizing the OP, you should note that this thread is already up to 8 (eight) pages. Maybe a thread like this was inevitable? I don’t know … But I wonder if similar threads (but in reverse) are common on Protestant forums? (That’s not a rhetorical question: I don’t frequent Protestant forums, so if someone does, please enlighten me. )

 

[Peter_J]

According to a Pew study (do I have to get it? I have numerous times) Evangelicals are more likely to hold more ‘orthodox’ views than self proclaimed Catholics.

I hope so.

 

[Memaw]

Exactly. It’s a foolish thought anyway. Protestantism isn’t going anywhere. Why should it? We’re pretty zealous in disseminating the Christian Message to the world.

We’re not causing the many divisions in Protestantism. They do that all by themselves. Jesus prayed for Unity, not disunity. God Bless. Memaw

 

[aidanbradypop]

We’re not causing the many divisions in Protestantism. They do that all by themselves. Jesus prayed for Unity, not disunity. God Bless. Memaw

Some would disagree. Some would say the RCC caused the divide with Orthodoxy and created the reformation buy certain non biblical practices.

 

[spedteacherita]

We’re not causing the many divisions in Protestantism. They do that all by themselves. Jesus prayed for Unity, not disunity. God Bless. Memaw

But what is the Gospel of Jesus and do you not see Protestants reaching out with the Gospel? Granted, there are those that go overboard by being ultra conservative such as the Westoboro Baptist Church and those that are going so liberal that the Gospel of Jesus has no backbone anymore - nothing solid upon which they can base their Christian lives upon.

If it hadn’t been Luther it would have been someone else, I believe because the printing press was just invented and the works and teachings of Luther spread out among the people like wildfire. Maybe that wildfire would have been the good news taught by the CC - but there were others like Hus and Tyndale who had already begun to translate the Bible into the native tongues of the people. Had the printing press been invented then, we might have “Tyndaleism” or “Hussism.”

Regardless this is where we are at and if we really look at the signs of the last days we’re getting really close and unfortunately there will be people lost.

It should be our in our hearts to begin to spread His Good News so that everyone on every continent be allowed to ‘hear, taste, and see’ the Bread of Life.

God bless all!!

Rita

 

[Della]

Some would disagree. Some would say the RCC caused the divide with Orthodoxy and created the reformation buy certain non biblical practices.

Well, it’s complicated–that’s the reality of the situation. There was fault and blame on both sides in both instances. The Church never sponsored nor taught heresy, though. Some in the Church went too far or insulted Eastern Christians–that’s what actually happened–just to keep to the truth here. The sad thing that these incidents are still used to keep people from being reconciled to the Church Christ founded.

I was heatened and glad to hear of the Ordinariate for Anglicans. I’m hoping there’ll be others for other recognizable Protestant bodies like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. I believe such ordinariates would help reunite Christians into full communion with the Church.

I see a lot of good in Protestant bodies from High Church Anglicans to Bible thumping Fundamentalists. The problem is what G. K. Chesterton cited–that each has taken a virtue and exalted it above all others, thus taking Christianity off on tangents–some of them ending in radical heresies–not all of course.

Everything good Protestants bring to the faith we Catholics benefit from–that the truth of the matter. Talking about the possible end of Protestantism isn’t/shouldn’t be triumphalism by Catholics but rather an aching in our hearts for the divisions that need not be. We want our Protestant brethren to be reunited to us so we can be one in bringing Christ and his Gospel of salvation in its fullness to the world. It has been the fallen nature of man and the work of the devil that has separated us against Christ’s prayer and desire that we all be one.

 

[Memaw]

Some would disagree. Some would say the RCC caused the divide with Orthodoxy and created the reformation buy certain non biblical practices.

“Some” would say many things that are not true. Who are they and where do they get their authority?? And what “non-bibical” practices are you talking about! God Bless, Memaw