The end of Protestantism

[SteveVH]

No, they don’t. They are led up to by predecessors. The Western Church had the Gospel and the Sacraments and that never changed until Pope Gregory and Leo X decided to introduce some innovations.

Please be specific. What changed, exactly?

All Luther and company did was remove the accretions of unnecessary traditions and return to the basics of Biblical teaching.

And what authority did Luther have to decide what was necessary and what was unnecessary, what was to be thrown out and what was to be kept? Who gave him that authority? We both know the answer.

No, as Luther was the son of parents, Lutheranism developed out of the Western Church, retaining her sacraments and proclaiming the Gospel, even as the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers did.

Developed out of the Western Church? You recognize only three of the seven sacraments and the doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide were not a development of Catholic doctrine but were modern innovations of Luther. This is not what the Apostles and Early Church Fathers taught. You don’t even have priests for crying out loud. How is this in any way a development of Catholicism? Was the priesthood some later “add-on” by the Church that had to be thrown out?

I know I just kind of jumped in here, but really, to portray the Lutheran Church as some natural continuation and development of Catholicism just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. What is more is that one would also have to define exactly which Lutheran branch one is speaking of as there is little continuity between them; LCMS, ELCA, WELS. The Lutheran Church, if there is such a thing anymore, would not be recognized by either the Apostles or the Early Church Fathers. To the degree that you have departed from Catholicism, you are preaching “another Gospel”.

 

[Bballer32]

It upholds Biblical Authority. Even over and above tradition, which is measured by it.

In what way? (For both please)

 

[LutheranScholar]

There’s no need to return the 300-year-old-polemics, LS. Mind the 8th Commandment and place the best construction on everything.

Our Catholic friends are just that – our friends. And we will need to work closer together as the secular world closes in around us. We do that not by bringing up the human deficiencies of Luther, Pope Leo X, or any of us alive today. We do that by seeking doctrinal agreement where we can, and deep understanding where we cannot. Let’s stay respectful.

You’re right. I too easily lose my temper when I feel my faith community is being belittled. It’s time for me to bow out of this particular conversation, but before that, let me express my appreciation of your calm and kind attitude toward these discussions, Steido01. You’re right, our Catholic friends are our friends, with no qualifications, no " I’m sorry, buts," nothing of the kind. They could pull historical examples supporting their claims, I could just as easily do the same. Fortunately, there are plenty of Lutheran Apologetics sites out there for those who need to defend a Confessional Lutheran viewpoint. I salute your comportment through all this. God bless you and our Catholic friends who have such a passionate drive for the Faith the Lord has given them via the Holy Spirit.

 

[PRmerger]

This was my understanding, too. But the way Steve puts it, well… he seems to insinuate that the vast majority of Protestants are not saved. Hardly seems like we are considered fellow Christians.

Can’t remember which theologian said this but he said something like: God has revealed to us just enough about salvation to make us happy that we can be saved but give us some trepidation that we are not.

Insert “Protestants” wherever “we” is in the above.

(Who knew a sentence could be constructed that is grammatically correct that juxtaposes “we is” together)

 

[Memaw]

The Church that gave us the Bible predated Trent by centuries. The Church that gives us the Word and Sacraments is vital to our corporate worship. I find it amusing that Catholicism claims credit due to the early Western Christian Church which the Lutheran Church also grew out of, as did the Anglicans. Luther and the other Protestants of Northern Europe felt that Rome had slidden into apostasy, that this Church had muted the Gospel message in favor of promoting their own authority. So, after excommunications, anathemas and warfare, the Protestant Churches became entrenched in Northern Europe and became relatively powerful. The belief that we could all approach God on our own, without a priestly intermediary or the Vatican’s seal of approval, held powerful appeal and the Bible, translated into the language of the people, put into the hands of learned men of the people ( how many colleges and universities are Protestant in origin?) gave the people what they needed to stand against the tyranny inherent in a religious monopoly. In places where the Inquisition held sway, obviously, this Reformation of the Western Church wasn’t going to get very far. We need the Church, the same Church that Christ established on Peter’s Confession, which was the very Rock of the Church, to guide us through this life, feed and nourish our faith through Word and Sacrament and to assist us in grooming our young to continue to live the life of the Gospel.

They didn’t “grow out of”, they broke away from and took on their own authority, and authority, and authority, until just about everyone IS their own authority. That has been proven over and over again among these forums. Catholics look to the Authority Jesus Christ gave HIS Church and has for 2,000 years. The Holy Spirit has never allowed the Catholic Church to teach error no matter what problems from within or without it has had to confront in the past 2,000 or so years. Your using OUR terms to describe your denomination. When did that start?? Self interpretation of the Scriptures has led to all kinds of errors. God Bless, Memaw

 

[PRmerger]

You’re right. I too easily lose my temper when I feel my faith community is being belittled. It’s time for me to bow out of this particular conversation, but before that, let me express my appreciation of your calm and kind attitude toward these discussions, Steido01. You’re right, our Catholic friends are our friends, with no qualifications, no " I’m sorry, buts," nothing of the kind. They could pull historical examples supporting their claims, I could just as easily do the same. Fortunately, there are plenty of Lutheran Apologetics sites out there for those who need to defend a Confessional Lutheran viewpoint. I salute your comportment through all this. God bless you and our Catholic friends who have such a passionate drive for the Faith the Lord has given them via the Holy Spirit.

Aww, don’t leave!

Surely you can discuss with a dispassionate, intellectual, reasoned approach?

Doesn’t St. Peter compel us to always give an answer for the hope we have, but to do it with gentleness and respect?

 

[Memaw]

No, they don’t. They are led up to by predecessors. The Western Church had the Gospel and the Sacraments and that never changed until Pope Gregory and Leo X decided to introduce some innovations. All Luther and company did was remove the accretions of unnecessary traditions and return to the basics of Biblical teaching. Of course they had catechisms to return correctly. No, as Luther was the son of parents, Lutheranism developed out of the Western Church, retaining her sacraments and proclaiming the Gospel, even as the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers did. You note that I will give you a link, which you may or may not access, as you will. Quote bombing and using obscure theological terms only takes away from the pure and simple Message of the Gospel. Stroking an institutional ego won’t lessen the validity of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in the eyes of God.

NOTHING will lesson the validity of GOD and HIS TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw

 

[PRmerger]

They didn’t “grow out of”, they broke away from and took on their own authority, and authority, and authority, until just about everyone IS their own authority.

Egg-zactly.

And that was my point several pages back: the reformers seem to have reserved for themselves what they object to in their own congregants–the right to break away from authority when they view the authority as teaching heresy/heterodoxy/heteropraxy.

They did.

But they don’t let their own members do it.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Please be specific. What changed, exactly?

And what authority did Luther have to decide what was necessary and what was unnecessary, what was to be thrown out and what was to be kept? Who gave him that authority? We both know the answer.

Developed out of the Western Church? You recognize only three of the seven sacraments and the doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide were not a development of Catholic doctrine but were modern innovations of Luther. This is not what the Apostles and Early Church Fathers taught. You don’t even have priests for crying out loud. How is this in any way a development of Catholicism? Was the priesthood some later “add-on” by the Church that had to be thrown out?

I know I just kind of jumped in here, but really, to portray the Lutheran Church as some natural continuation and development of Catholicism just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. What is more is that one would also have to define exactly which Lutheran branch one is speaking of as there is little continuity between them; LCMS, ELCA, WELS. The Lutheran Church, if there is such a thing anymore, would not be recognized by either the Apostles or the Early Church Fathers. To the degree that you have departed from Catholicism, you are preaching “another Gospel”.

Okay, out of respect for SteveVH, I’ll attempt to answer these questions to his satisfaction.
All right, the forbidding of marriage to priests, purgatory, the emphasis on prayer to the saints and the infallibility of the Pope. We do have priests, properly called and ordained ministers who God works through to deliver the Word and Sacraments. They pronounce absolution, they marry and bury our people and they maintain our traditions. Luther did not work alone. As he *was *an ordained priest of the Catholic Church, one could argue that he had no authority at all, but the Lord worked through him when the Holy Bible was being edited. LCMS and WELS separated through administrative differences. ELCA has taken a more liberal turn. We have departed from Catholicism. Our Christianity is alive and thriving. I have said the same thing **over and over again **and I’ll cease here. We accept people as Christians who accept the three Ecumenical Creeds. We are not trying to coerce anybody away from their membership. God meets people where they are. God bless you, Pope Francis, the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, the Presbyterian Church in America, the Conservative Mennonite Conference, the Southern Baptist Church, the Religious Society of Friends and the Oriental and eastern orthodox Churches, never forgetting the Assyrian Church of the East, or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Episcopal Church in the USA, the Anglican Catholic Church and the Christian Reformed Church. All of which proclaim the Gospel of Christ and all of whose members bless their ministries and outreaches. God bless you. I’m through.

 

[LutheranScholar]

In what way? (For both please)

I can think of no better response than the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.
bookofconcord.org/defense_6_church.php God’s richest blessings.

 

[LutheranScholar]

They didn’t “grow out of”, they broke away from and took on their own authority, and authority, and authority, until just about everyone IS their own authority. That has been proven over and over again among these forums. Catholics look to the Authority Jesus Christ gave HIS Church and has for 2,000 years. The Holy Spirit has never allowed the Catholic Church to teach error no matter what problems from within or without it has had to confront in the past 2,000 or so years. Your using OUR terms to describe your denomination. When did that start?? Self interpretation of the Scriptures has led to all kinds of errors. God Bless, Memaw

Our authority is in the Holy Bible and correctly extrapolated through the Book of Concord. Bye. God bless you as well. What are the Lutherans and Anglicans up to, I wonder?

 

[Memaw]

Okay, out of respect for SteveVH, I’ll attempt to answer these questions to his satisfaction.
All right, the forbidding of marriage to priests, purgatory, the emphasis on prayer to the saints and the infallibility of the Pope. We do have priests, properly called and ordained ministers who God works through to deliver the Word and Sacraments. They pronounce absolution, they marry and bury our people and they maintain our traditions. Luther did not work alone. As he *was *an ordained priest of the Catholic Church, one could argue that he had no authority at all, but the Lord worked through him when the Holy Bible was being edited. LCMS and WELS separated through administrative differences. ELCA has taken a more liberal turn. We have departed from Catholicism. Our Christianity is alive and thriving. I have said the same thing **over and over again **and I’ll cease here. We accept people as Christians who accept the three Ecumenical Creeds. We are not trying to coerce anybody away from their membership. God meets people where they are. God bless you, Pope Francis, the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, the Presbyterian Church in America, the Conservative Mennonite Conference, the Southern Baptist Church, the Religious Society of Friends and the Oriental and eastern orthodox Churches, never forgetting the Assyrian Church of the East, or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Episcopal Church in the USA, the Anglican Catholic Church and the Christian Reformed Church. All of which proclaim the Gospel of Christ and all of whose members bless their ministries and outreaches. God bless you. I’m through.

And what about the other 40,000 others that proclaim the Gospel in their own way. The truth is still the truth, even if nobody believes it and a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it. Archbishop Fulton J Sheen. God Bless, Memaw

 

[SteveVH]

Okay, out of respect for SteveVH, I’ll attempt to answer these questions to his satisfaction.
All right, the forbidding of marriage to priests, purgatory, the emphasis on prayer to the saints and the infallibility of the Pope. We do have priests, properly called and ordained ministers who God works through to deliver the Word and Sacraments. They pronounce absolution, they marry and bury our people and they maintain our traditions. Luther did not work alone. As he *was *an ordained priest of the Catholic Church, one could argue that he had no authority at all, but the Lord worked through him when the Holy Bible was being edited. LCMS and WELS separated through administrative differences. ELCA has taken a more liberal turn. We have departed from Catholicism. Our Christianity is alive and thriving. I have said the same thing **over and over again **and I’ll cease here. We accept people as Christians who accept the three Ecumenical Creeds. We are not trying to coerce anybody away from their membership. God meets people where they are. God bless you, Pope Francis, the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, the Presbyterian Church in America, the Conservative Mennonite Conference, the Southern Baptist Church, the Religious Society of Friends and the Oriental and eastern orthodox Churches, never forgetting the Assyrian Church of the East, or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Episcopal Church in the USA, the Anglican Catholic Church and the Christian Reformed Church. All of which proclaim the Gospel of Christ and all of whose members bless their ministries and outreaches. God bless you. I’m through.

Ok.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, out of respect for SteveVH, I’ll attempt to answer these questions to his satisfaction.
All right, the forbidding of marriage to priests,

Forbid marriage to priests?

The Catholic Church permits marriage. In fact, it elevates marriage. It declares it to be so holy that it’s a sacrament!

Priests choose to remain celibate.

Here’s a question for you, LS, taken from apologist John Martignoni: If the Catholic Church allowed everyone in the Church to commit adultery except for those who become priests, would you tell people that the Church forbids adultery? Yes or no?

 

[PRmerger]

Do we not all proclaim the Trinity? Do we not share similar Scripture? Do we not all have the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion? Do we not gather together in our churches to declare the Good News that Jesus came to relieve us from the Law’s awful burden by dying in our place?

That’s all great. We give a hearty amen to your communion’s preaching of these things in truth.

However, why do you get to draw the line and say: those who do not preach these things are outside of the Faith?

But when Catholics say: those who do not preach these things* are outside of the Faith,

you bristle?

*these things: purgatory, infallibility of the pope, a celibate priesthood, transubstantiation, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

 

[USNA91]

Do you think Protestantism will die out? I think so.

Depends on the timeline you’re looking across. Take it out to the end of time and yes, it will die out.

Short of that? I doubt it.

 

[PRmerger]

purgatory,

You believe in purgatory, too, LS, if you believe the Scriptures which state that “nothing unclean can enter heaven” (Rev. 21:27)

If you* have had an impure thought since accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you have some cleaning up to do before you stand before the Godhead. That impure thought defiled your clean soul…and it has to be cleaned up before you meet the King of Kings.

If you died tonight, with this stain on your soul, you couldn’t go to heaven. You’d have to be cleaned up first.

Of course, you may believe that dirty things can be in heaven…but that would be contrary to Scripture.

Or, I suppose, you can believe that your soul is lily-white…but that seems contrary to logic. How can someone who’s had impure thoughts have a pure soul??? That doesn’t seem possible, no?

So…how does someone get purged of this stain on his soul if he’s going to meet the Lord of Lords?

How, indeed…

*You, here, is a rhetorical you. Not a personal you.

the emphasis on prayer to the saints

There is no “emphasis” on prayer to the saints in Catholicism.

You can go through your entire life as a good Catholic and never once privately pray to a saint (although that would be like going through your entire marriage never once privately talking to your inlaws, but, why wouldn’t you want to talk to them? Regardless, you certainly could be a good husband to your wife and never talk to your inlaws).

If you go to our highest form of prayer, the Divine Liturgy, you will hear “saints” mentioned…once? twice maybe?

Hardly an “emphasis on prayer to the saints”.

 

[Thorolfr]

You believe in purgatory, too, LS, if you believe the Scriptures which state that “nothing unclean can enter heaven” (Rev. 21:27)

I don’t know how you get an elaborate doctrine about purgatory from a single phrase in Revelations. Maybe people become clean in a different way.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I don’t know how you get an elaborate doctrine about purgatory from a single phrase in Revelations. Maybe people become clean in a different way.

The church doesn’t say how…just that you do become clean, that you need to be freed from your attachments to sins, and that the prayer of the church aids you in your purification.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know how you get an elaborate doctrine about purgatory from a single phrase in Revelations.

Well, first of all, I didn’t say it came from a single phrase in Revelation.

I’m just presenting an argument: if nothing unclean can enter heaven (which we know from a single phrase), then how do you get to heaven with an impurity on your soul?

Maybe people become clean in a different way.

Well, any way you want to call it–the becoming clean is what purgatory is.

And that means you believe in purgatory too.