The end of Protestantism

[Jon_S_1]

Perhaps I am. I hope I am. Would you kindly show where I’m misunderstanding the text? It seems rather straightforward.

Responding to the doctrine of the ‘perseverance of the saints’ - a distinctly Calvinist error that has never been taught in Lutheranism - is one thing. And I would agree with Trent, if that were the case. (In fact, I find myself agreeing with a significant portion of Trent, since that council seemed to confuse/conflate Lutheranism with the other movements of the time. I wonder if Catholics think similar things as they read the Lutheran Confessions? Anyway…) But the text doesn’t stop with a simple condemnation of that heresy; it pulls a Galatians 5:12 and emasculates the very core of the Gospel! It says that even the sincerely repentant regenerate cannot be certain that he’s done enough to merit God’s forgiveness. What kind of terrible god offers no substantive assurance?

We commend heathen and heretics to God’s Mercy… and that’s all that Trent is willing to offer the pious believer? I’m not sure that’s assurance at all. But there is good news! God has given assurance to the believer. Scripture and the fathers are clear:

I think you are conflating to issues.

Yes as you state we are assured of salvation of we repent and are baptized and remain in him.

But this is not a certainty of salvation for me today. I cannot judge what the state of my soul would be when I die and when I even will die. Perhaps I turn from God in the future…so certainty is a word we avoid, especially in light of the eternal security heresies of the time of Trent (and today). So assurance is a word we embrace. We are assured that Christ is faithful of his promises and so those who choose him will be saved.

This is different than saying. Whenever I die I am certain I will be in heaven. That statement is left for God at the judgement.

And our assurance is far different than the mercy we hope exists for unbelievers. We hope in Gods justice and mercy for them. We as catholics are assured of Gods grace and salvation. Big difference.

 

[steve_b]

Agreed, Steve. And the Lutheran Confessions agree, too – even using the same verses you do (what are you up to?):

What am I up to? Allow me to explain

Jesus gave full authority to His Church Luke 10:16 …#[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34) . **J****esus didn’t do that for anyone else. **Therefore, Protestantism regardless of stripe, is trying to argue from a position of authority that it doesn’t have.

Jesus expects EVEYONE to be inside His Church. That’s because NO DIVISIONS, and PERFECT UNITY is what He wants. John 17:20-23
s:

If I may… most Lutherans take our dissension from Rome very seriously and solemnly, but also see it as a necessity.

the following has no expiration date to it Romans 16:17-20

I’ve found over the years Protestants like to quote Paul, and particularly the book of Romans. Most don’t realize Romans was written to the Church of Rome. The Church Jesus said, “not even the gates of hell will prevail against it”. The same Church that is there today with Pope Francis 267th successor to Peter at the helm.

So here’s what I’m up to. There’s no doubt in my mind, when Paul wrote the following under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Romans 16:17-20 God was warning Rome, about all the divisions that would come from her over the years. And what did the HS say through Paul about those who divide from the Church?

" they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent "

As we know, scripture doesn’t just give us rules that we are to do, and that’s THAT. Rather, because of man’s draw to disobedience, God includes consequences for our disobedience. Therefore, the following happens Galatians 5:19-21 to the one who divides and won’t return to unity with Our Lord’s Church before they die.

“I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

And there is NO expiration date to that warning or consequence.
s:

From the Lutheran Confessions:See the bolded. When the Catholic priest claims to stand in persona Christi and announce forgiveness to the laity, he might not actually be granting forgiveness. Better work harder for heaven. Are ‘you’ good enough yet?

the priest

• does stand in personna Christi at the sacrifice of the mass.
• at the beginning of mass he forgives one’s venial sins…NOT mortal sins. Mortal sins have to be confessed in sacramental confession.

Given the consequences of division seen above, " they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God " i.e. one goes to hell if they die in that sin, THAT is also an example of a mortal sin

 

[Peter_J]

Why was my thread moved to the “Non-Catholic Religions” board? I posted it in Apologetics because I was interested in hearing what fellow CATHOLICS had to say.

Dear Lord, this has gone so far off-topic. I’m sorry for ever making it.

1. I did return to the thread, but couldn’t keep track because everything moved so quickly. It’s hard to keep up with 32 pages.

I don’t want to appear snide, but if I were to ask about the end of Arianism, or Gnosticism, would it be moved to the “Non-Catholic Religions” board as well? …

Well, I can’t really answer your questions since my mind-reading powers are pretty weak; but I do believe there’s a connection between the way the thread has gone – particularly the explosive growth rate – and the fact that it’s on the NC Religions forum. I’m not denying that Protestant posters mean well, but from my experience they tend to be drawn to polemical posts like a magnet. Image protestants-moving-toward-magnet.gif not found But to be fair, I would guess that the same is true of Catholic posters on Protestant forums. (One of these days I’m going to visit PAF and check out their Non-Protestant Religions forum, but I keep putting it off. )

 

[Isaiah45_9]

as i said, i was hoping to hear catholic responses about the end of protestantism.

all your base are belong to us

:d

 

[steve_b]

As I said, I was hoping to hear CATHOLIC responses about the end of Protestantism. My thoughts were that due to growing indifference and nondenominationalism, Protestantism will die. Perhaps not in my lifetime, but in the next few hundred years-- no different than any other heresy the Church has dealt with.

Unfortunately the only place free of sin is heaven. Because Satan divides, as long as he’s allowed to roam the earth, he will divide people from the Catholic Church. And it is not without consequences to them

 

[steve_b]

I wonder why earthly division should absolutely, necessarily separate any individual or ecclesial body from Christ.

Because it was revealed in scripture. That’s why I gave those quotes
s:

We’d admonish them to accept the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Faith in its beautiful clarity.

And we certainly wouldn’t want to pour a non catholic interpretation of what those terms mean

811, 816, 817,
s:

So Trent seems to re-write Paul, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, [and keep on trembling] for it is God who [may or may not actually be doing] works in you, both to [maybe] will and to [maybe] work for his good pleasure. [Good luck, and happy doubting!]”:tiphat:

News flash! Paul ain’t a Protestant.

 

[Memaw]

What am I up to? Allow me to explain

Jesus gave full authority to His Church Luke 10:16 …#[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34) . **J****esus didn’t do that for anyone else. **Therefore, Protestantism regardless of stripe, is trying to argue from a position of authority that it doesn’t have.

Jesus expects EVEYONE to be inside His Church. That’s because NO DIVISIONS, and PERFECT UNITY is what He wants. John 17:20-23

the following has no expiration date to it Romans 16:17-20

I’ve found over the years Protestants like to quote Paul, and particularly the book of Romans. Most don’t realize Romans was written to the Church of Rome. The Church Jesus said, “not even the gates of hell will prevail against it”. The same Church that is there today with Pope Francis 267th successor to Peter at the helm.

So here’s what I’m up to. There’s no doubt in my mind, when Paul wrote the following under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Romans 16:17-20 God was warning Rome, about all the divisions that would come from her over the years. And what did the HS say through Paul about those who divide from the Church?

" they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent "

As we know, scripture doesn’t just give us rules that we are to do, and that’s THAT. Rather, because of man’s draw to disobedience, God includes consequences for our disobedience. Therefore, the following happens Galatians 5:19-21 to the one who divides and won’t return to unity with Our Lord’s Church before they die.

“I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

And there is NO expiration date to that warning or consequence.

the priest

• does stand in personna Christi at the sacrifice of the mass.
• at the beginning of mass he forgives one’s venial sins…NOT mortal sins. Mortal sins have to be confessed in sacramental confession.

Given the consequences of division seen above, " they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God " i.e. one goes to hell if they die in that sin, THAT is also an example of a mortal sin

Amen, God Bless, Memaw

 

[JustaServant]

1. I gave my opinion about the end of Protestantism.
2. I did return to the thread, but couldn’t keep track because everything moved so quickly. It’s hard to keep up with 32 pages.
3. Why shouldn’t Protestants chime in? Because that’s not who I was asking. I posted it in Apologetics because I wanted a variety of Catholic opinions regarding when and how the Protestant heresy will end. Had I wanted a debate, I would’ve posted it here to begin with. Intentional or not, it looks like I have one now. Smh
4. Protestantism is not a wing of Christ’s Church.

I’ll only address the last two.
CAF is not a segregated forum, so you would have gotten Protestant responses in Apologetics.
As for the second…the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

 

[smead2942]

I’ll only address the last two.
CAF is not a segregated forum, so you would have gotten Protestant responses in Apologetics.
As for the second…the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

There are two living, breathing lungs of Christ’s Church: Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Some protestants may profess faith in Jesus and share a common baptism with us, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are heretics. Salvation cannot be found outside the Catholic faith.

 

[steido01]

What am I up to? Allow me to explain

Jesus gave full authority to His Church. Luke 10:16. Jesus didn’t do that for anyone else. Therefore, Protestantism regardless of stripe, is trying to argue from a position of authority that it doesn’t have.

For Roman Catholics, it all seems to boil down to authority. This will always remain a point of disagreement. You’ll say He gave authority solely to Peter, and all subsequent authority is totally derived from Peter. We say that Christ gave the authority to teach to the church, which received it firstly through Peter and then the other Apostles. Unless I am shown from Scripture, the fathers, the Apostles, or plain reason that I am wrong, I’ll just stand right here.

Jesus expects EVEYONE to be inside His Church. That’s because NO DIVISIONS, and PERFECT UNITY is what He wants. John 17:20-23

No disagreement there. Just questioning your definition of ‘church.’ The demand that all Christians in all places must follow the rites, customs and orders of the Church in Rome seems similar to the demands made by the Judaizers, who St. Paul rebuked in Acts. Even St. Peter was not above rebuke.

I’ve found over the years Protestants like to quote Paul, and particularly the book of Romans. Most don’t realize Romans was written to the Church of Rome.

It sure was. Incredible how the same rebuke can be applied in today’s modern world. Certainly speaks to the Divine Inspiration of Holy Scripture over man’s limited “authority!”

The Church Jesus said, “not even the gates of hell will prevail against it”. The same Church that is there today with Pope Francis 267th successor to Peter at the helm.

The gates of hell will not prevail against the church catholic, on that we agree. Pay special mind that Jesus says this as a promise for her future. Will not. Not that she cannot be led astray on earth – in fact, he tells us quite the opposite. He says that many shall come claiming His Name (or claiming to represent him), and that many will be misled. And we learn from Scripture that many of these will come from within the church. But that in the end, the real end, the church will remain, because its leader has always been Christ – not some singular bishop who may reside in Rome, or Avignon, or Jerusalem, or Antioch, or Moscow, or St. Louis – but Christ. His sheep know the sound of His voice.

the priest

• does stand in personna Christi at the sacrifice of the mass.
• at the beginning of mass he forgives one’s venial sins…NOT mortal sins. Mortal sins have to be confessed in sacramental confession.

Given the consequences of division seen above, " they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God " i.e. one goes to hell if they die in that sin, THAT is also an example of a mortal sin

My point was that even after one receives Holy Absolution, Trent states that even a pious and repentant Catholic can’t really be sure whether they’ve actually received God’s Grace. That’s no different than the OSAS Calvinist who woefully wonders whether he’s actually been ‘saved.’ Just as void of comfort. This vengeful god shows no compassion, no love, no good news – no Gospel. It’s law, law, law. Just as the Judaizers wanted to impose.

But while we’re here, why does the priest withhold Absolution for mortal sins repented at Mass? Where did Christ institute two separate forms of Confession and Holy Absolution? Even the most venial of sins can lead to mortal abuse if continued. Why complicate very simple directions from Christ?

News flash! Paul ain’t a Protestant.

I’m not so sure. He certainly weren’t no Judaizer.

Maybe all Christians can take time to reflect on how the church managed to pull itself back together after Paul rebuked Rome? It could be done again today.

 

[steido01]

There are two living, breathing lungs of Christ’s Church: Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I’m not sure that’s what your Church teaches. Pope John Paul II was writing about Western Catholics and Eastern Catholics, not the Orthodox.

Some protestants may profess faith in Jesus and share a common baptism with us, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are heretics.

Catholics have explained to me that Christians who are born into non-Catholic communions are not heretics but ‘separated brethren,’ since they’ve never formally committed the sin of heresy. (Which absolutely perplexes me. Wouldn’t that still make us material heretics? ) But whenever I ask for clarification, Catholic get shy. Not a popular topic.

Salvation cannot be found outside the Catholic faith.

And what does CC838 mean? Are those who exist in an “imperfect communion” with the Catholic Church, simply deficient Catholics? After all, the Orthodox are placed into this category, and they’re even invited to partake of the Eucharist at Mass.

 

[Peter_J]

After all, the Orthodox are placed into this category, and they’re even invited to partake of the Eucharist at Mass.

I think “invited” could be a tad misleading. Our Church is strongly against proselytizing the Orthodox (see Vatican II’s decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, and the 1993 joint Balamand Agreement, Uniatism, Method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion) … When it comes to intercommunion, it would have to be a case of an Orthodox approaching a Catholic priest of his/her own accord.

 

[steido01]

I think “invited” could be a tad misleading. Our Church is strongly against proselytizing the Orthodox (see Vatican II’s decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, and the 1993 joint Balamand Agreement, Uniatism, Method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion) … When it comes to intercommunion, it would have to be a case of an Orthodox approaching a Catholic priest of his/her own accord.

Right. Thanks, Peter.

 

[Jon_S_1]

There are two living, breathing lungs of Christ’s Church: Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Some protestants may profess faith in Jesus and share a common baptism with us, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are heretics. Salvation cannot be found outside the Catholic faith.

This is so inaccurate. In case you were unaware there are two lungs of the church. The Eastern Church which includes Orthodoxy and the Western Church of which protestants split from (they are now in schism with us, similarly to the Orthodox being in schism with us)

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[rfournier103]

I think Protestantism is here to stay.

As a poster near the beginning of the thread said; MAINLINE Protestantism will continue to decline, and Non-Denominational Protestantism will continue to grow.

I don’t have any numbers to back this up, but when people abandon Non-Denominationalism, I think they tend to either become Catholic, or “spiritual”. Doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of conversions TO Mainline Protestantism from the Non-Denominational ranks…

 

[spedteacherita]

I think Protestantism is here to stay.

As a poster near the beginning of the thread said; MAINLINE Protestantism will continue to decline, and Non-Denominational Protestantism will continue to grow.

I don’t have any numbers to back this up, but when people abandon Non-Denominationalism, I think they tend to either become Catholic, or “spiritual”. Doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of conversions TO Mainline Protestantism from the Non-Denominational ranks…

I keep thinking what a great study this would be! I’d love to see numbers of the various Mainline churches and if they’re dwindling, static or growing. I know I’ve mentioned it in the forums before but we have 4 local Catholic churches that are having to be combined because their numbers are dwindling. I’m pretty sure the LCMS church has remained pretty much the same but we’ve added 2 more 15 miles or so out of the city. We have 2 ELCA churches and I have no knowledge about them except one of them went thru some turmoil as some members did not agree with the ELCA leadership’s allowing homosexuals in the pulpit…sad to see that type of friction in such an old church. The ones that broke away are now are “mission” type church (LCMC) that is fully recognized by the LCMS (at least that’s what the LCMS pastor told me here. This LCMC church is growing and I believe it has to do with the mission activities that they are involved with.

Blessings!

Rita

 

[LutheranScholar]

I keep thinking what a great study this would be! I’d love to see numbers of the various Mainline churches and if they’re dwindling, static or growing. I know I’ve mentioned it in the forums before but we have 4 local Catholic churches that are having to be combined because their numbers are dwindling. I’m pretty sure the LCMS church has remained pretty much the same but we’ve added 2 more 15 miles or so out of the city. We have 2 ELCA churches and I have no knowledge about them except one of them went thru some turmoil as some members did not agree with the ELCA leadership’s allowing homosexuals in the pulpit…sad to see that type of friction in such an old church. The ones that broke away are now are “mission” type church (LCMC) that is fully recognized by the LCMS (at least that’s what the LCMS pastor told me here. This LCMC church is growing and I believe it has to do with the mission activities that they are involved with.

Blessings!

Rita

I think that you’ll find that the stricter, more conservative and Gospel True Churches are growing and that the more liberal churches are shrinking. I also think that you’ll find among the younger generation a renewed interest in the ancient Christian liturgies that were discounted as irrelevant by the 60s generation. I’m rather of the opinion that we of the LCMS possess the best- kept secret of American Christianity… because I don’t think we’re visible enough or present our vision in a proactive way. Generally, converts ( myself included) presented ourselves to the church… the church didn’t come out to meet us. We’ve a lot to learn from our more evangelical brothers and sisters that do go out there and get the word out.

 

[Peter_J]

Right. Thanks, Peter.

shaw:

 

[Steve_Timm]

Hi, guys!!!

Thank you for this post!!

I can understand how many Catholics feel about Protestantism. As a practicing Protestant (I am Lutheran) I get exasperated at the many denominations of the Protestant branch of Christianity!! One commenter on this forum said: “It seems like any two people can grab a set of lawn chairs and a bible and call themselves a Church.!!” (Hope I quoted that correctly!!) I thought this was a good quote and quite telling on some that are not of the Catholic faith. I got a good chuckle out of it too!!

I don’t think Protestantism will die out though.

It may come to surprise many Catholics, but I believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I believe in Mary as the Mother of God and the Theotokos, (have had many, many conversations defending Mary to my Protestant brethren!!) homage to the saints and the veneration thereof, have said many rosaries, and have to get more in the regular habit of that!!!

It is kind of interesting that, historically during the reformation, Martin Luther did not want to create a separate Church, apart from the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform the existing Catholic Church and get rid of the corruption that had infested the Church at that time.

In my observation, when Catholics and Protestants argue and become violent (think Northern Ireland) with each other, that is sad. They are really disagreeing with each other over doctrines, teachings and dogma. For me as a Protestant, whether Purgatory exists, whether Mary was a virgin her whole life (which, incidentally, Martin Luther believed, taught and confessed to be true) or whether the Pope has Papal infallibility when speaking ex cathedra, none of these things changes, alters or diminishes for me the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I believe when Catholics and Protestants go at each other, that is how Lucifer gets the army shooting at each other. And it really accomplishes nothing in the short or long term!!

Anyways, foks, just my 2 cents!!!

Take care all and catch you on the forum!!!

Steve Timm

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi, guys!!!

Thank you for this post!!

I can understand how many Catholics feel about Protestantism. As a practicing Protestant (I am Lutheran) I get exasperated at the many denominations of the Protestant branch of Christianity!! One commenter on this forum said: “It seems like any two people can grab a set of lawn chairs and a bible and call themselves a Church.!!” (Hope I quoted that correctly!!) I thought this was a good quote and quite telling on some that are not of the Catholic faith. I got a good chuckle out of it too!!

I don’t think Protestantism will die out though.

It may come to surprise many Catholics, but I believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I believe in Mary as the Mother of God and the Theotokos, (have had many, many conversations defending Mary to my Protestant brethren!!) homage to the saints and the veneration thereof, have said many rosaries, and have to get more in the regular habit of that!!!

It is kind of interesting that, historically during the reformation, Martin Luther did not want to create a separate Church, apart from the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform the existing Catholic Church and get rid of the corruption that had infested the Church at that time.

In my observation, when Catholics and Protestants argue and become violent (think Northern Ireland) with each other, that is sad. They are really disagreeing with each other over doctrines, teachings and dogma. For me as a Protestant, whether Purgatory exists, whether Mary was a virgin her whole life (which, incidentally, Martin Luther believed, taught and confessed to be true) or whether the Pope has Papal infallibility when speaking ex cathedra, none of these things changes, alters or diminishes for me the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I believe when Catholics and Protestants go at each other, that is how Lucifer gets the army shooting at each other. And it really accomplishes nothing in the short or long term!!

Anyways, foks, just my 2 cents!!!

Take care all and catch you on the forum!!!

Steve Timm

Great Post, welcome to the forum. Looking forward to seeing more insights from you!

Praying that the post Vatican 2 church will look increasingly like the church Lutherans were hoping for.