The end of Protestantism

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Hi, guys!!!

Thank you for this post!!

I can understand how many Catholics feel about Protestantism. As a practicing Protestant (I am Lutheran) I get exasperated at the many denominations of the Protestant branch of Christianity!! One commenter on this forum said: “It seems like any two people can grab a set of lawn chairs and a bible and call themselves a Church.!!” (Hope I quoted that correctly!!) I thought this was a good quote and quite telling on some that are not of the Catholic faith. I got a good chuckle out of it too!!

I don’t think Protestantism will die out though.

It may come to surprise many Catholics, but I believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I believe in Mary as the Mother of God and the Theotokos, (have had many, many conversations defending Mary to my Protestant brethren!!) homage to the saints and the veneration thereof, have said many rosaries, and have to get more in the regular habit of that!!!

It is kind of interesting that, historically during the reformation, Martin Luther did not want to create a separate Church, apart from the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform the existing Catholic Church and get rid of the corruption that had infested the Church at that time.

In my observation, when Catholics and Protestants argue and become violent (think Northern Ireland) with each other, that is sad. They are really disagreeing with each other over doctrines, teachings and dogma. For me as a Protestant, whether Purgatory exists, whether Mary was a virgin her whole life (which, incidentally, Martin Luther believed, taught and confessed to be true) or whether the Pope has Papal infallibility when speaking ex cathedra, none of these things changes, alters or diminishes for me the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I believe when Catholics and Protestants go at each other, that is how Lucifer gets the army shooting at each other. And it really accomplishes nothing in the short or long term!!

Anyways, foks, just my 2 cents!!!

Take care all and catch you on the forum!!!

Steve Timm
Best post I have read in a few weeks. Welcome aboard.
 
Thank you Jon S and rfournier103!!!

I enjoy Catholic Answers Fourm!! I think interfaith and interdenominational dialogue is incredibly important between Catholics and Protestants!!

I have found and been surprised by the many similarities between the Catholic and the Lutheran professions and practice of faith. I think many people on both sides of the fence would be similarly surprised as well!!

Thanks again, guys and catch you on the forum!!! 👍👍👍
 
For Roman Catholics, it all seems to boil down to authority.
Of course. That’s how Jesus established HIS Church. WITH HIS AUTHORITY. It’s what makes the Catholic Church the true Church. Look at this in reverse. If Jesus had established Protestants and not Catholics, and Catholics were the jonny come lately, 100% manmade tradition, don’t you think Protestants would be using the authority argument against Catholics?

Just being transparent, if I was a protestant knowing where I came from, I’d be hugely uncomfortable over all the warnings & condemnations from both scripture and sacred Tradition, against me and my traditions of division from the One true Church
s:
This will always remain a point of disagreement. You’ll say He gave authority solely to Peter, and all subsequent authority is totally derived from Peter. We say that Christ gave the authority to teach to the church, which received it firstly through Peter and then the other Apostles. Unless I am shown from Scripture, the fathers, the Apostles, or plain reason that I am wrong, I’ll just stand right here. 🤷
Obstinance is never a good thing to be in, when one is wrong…agreed?

The argument over primacy, and this is really what you’re driving at, was settled after the last supper concluded, while everyone is still in the upper room. Using the same Lukan passage I’ve responded to that in 2 different ways

#30 and #385

I’ve heard people argue that the apostles were blockheads, knuckleheads, dense, slow on the uptake, etc etc, because they just didn’t get it half the time. Well… IMV that’s a bit of an ignorant opinion, given the adversary (Satan) who was permitted to sift them like wheat.
No disagreement there. Just questioning your definition of ‘church.’ The demand that all Christians in all places must follow the rites, customs and orders of the Church in Rome seems similar to the demands made by the Judaizers, who St. Paul rebuked in Acts. Even St. Peter was not above rebuke.

  1. *]Don’t equate Judaizers and their demands with the authority of the Catholic Church. Judaizers aren’t the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church is. [1 Timothy 3:15](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+3:15&version=RSVCE) ,
    *]Re: Peter being rebuked by Paul… have a look at this. #752 Note: Jerome’s answer to that, bottom of page
    s:
    The gates of hell will not prevail against the church catholic, on that we agree.
    If I understand your meaning, as I said before, Ya can’t insert Protestant meaning back onto Catholic History.
    s:
    Pay special mind that Jesus says this as a promise for her future. Will not. Not that she cannot be led astray on earth – in fact, he tells us quite the opposite. He says that many shall come claiming His Name (or claiming to represent him), and that many will be misled.
    😉 hence protestantism.

    Jesus will NOT cause heresy, He will NOT divide His own Church.
    s:
    And we learn from Scripture that many of these will come from within the church.
    Hello!!! Martin Luther, Henry VIII, etc etc :rolleyes:
    s:
    But that in the end, the real end, the church will remain, because its leader has always been Christ –
    True.
    s:
    not some singular bishop who may reside in Rome,
    Since Jesus is the one who established Peter and his office that he held, and Peter was bishop of Rome, and we know apostolic succession is true, you’re arguing your position with the wrong guy.
    His sheep know the sound of His voice.
    Agreed.
    s:
    even after one receives Holy Absolution, Trent states that even a pious and repentant Catholic can’t really be sure whether they’ve actually received God’s Grace. That’s no different than the OSAS Calvinist who woefully wonders whether he’s actually been ‘saved.’ Just as void of comfort.
    Where does Trent say that?

    Here’s a whole section on penance.
    ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT14.HTM
    s:
    This vengeful god shows no compassion, no love, no good news – no Gospel. It’s law, law, law. Just as the Judaizers wanted to impose.
    Before accusing, make sure your assumptions are correct to begin with.
    s:
    But while we’re here, why does the priest withhold Absolution for mortal sins repented at Mass? Where did Christ institute two separate forms of Confession and Holy Absolution? Even the most venial of sins can lead to mortal abuse if continued. Why complicate very simple directions from Christ?
    Did Jesus breathe on the apostles and only say “whose sins you forgive they are forgiven”, and end it there? No. Jesus added, “whose sins you retain they are retained”. Re: retain, Only if the person shows no willingness to give up sin does the priest withhold absolution. That only stands to reason, the person isn’t repentant, nor is there a desire to change…

    It therefore, presumes confessing one’s sins to a priest. Afterall they are NOT mind readers.

    1Jn teaches, a person can pray for God to forgive their sins, for those sins that are not mortal. John says he doesn’t say one should rely on prayer for the forgiveness of mortal sin.

    Are you saying Jesus complicated this?
 
Hi, guys!!!

Thank you for this post!!

I can understand how many Catholics feel about Protestantism. As a practicing Protestant (I am Lutheran) I get exasperated at the many denominations of the Protestant branch of Christianity!! One commenter on this forum said: “It seems like any two people can grab a set of lawn chairs and a bible and call themselves a Church.!!” (Hope I quoted that correctly!!) I thought this was a good quote and quite telling on some that are not of the Catholic faith. I got a good chuckle out of it too!!

I don’t think Protestantism will die out though.

It may come to surprise many Catholics, but I believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I believe in Mary as the Mother of God and the Theotokos, (have had many, many conversations defending Mary to my Protestant brethren!!) homage to the saints and the veneration thereof, have said many rosaries, and have to get more in the regular habit of that!!!

It is kind of interesting that, historically during the reformation, Martin Luther did not want to create a separate Church, apart from the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform the existing Catholic Church and get rid of the corruption that had infested the Church at that time.

In my observation, when Catholics and Protestants argue and become violent (think Northern Ireland) with each other, that is sad. They are really disagreeing with each other over doctrines, teachings and dogma. For me as a Protestant, whether Purgatory exists, whether Mary was a virgin her whole life (which, incidentally, Martin Luther believed, taught and confessed to be true) or whether the Pope has Papal infallibility when speaking ex cathedra, none of these things changes, alters or diminishes for me the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I believe when Catholics and Protestants go at each other, that is how Lucifer gets the army shooting at each other. And it really accomplishes nothing in the short or long term!!

Anyways, foks, just my 2 cents!!!

Take care all and catch you on the forum!!!

Steve Timm
Welcome to the forum :tiphat:

I’ve heard the comment as well, that Luther didn’t want to start a new Church apart from the Catholic Church. Here’s why I don’t believe that.
  • Excommunication isn’t meant to be permanent. The hope is that the one who is excommunicated will change and come back into communion. Luther was given multiple chances to change and he didn’t take any of them.
  • He doubled down on his errors and refused correction. Here’s an example, 10 years after he was excommunicated, he said the following
  • " I also know that in Rom. 3, the word “solum” is not present in either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there."
  • “if your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr.Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. (I will it, I command it; my will is reason enough) For we are not going to become students and followers of the papists. Rather we will become their judge and master”.
  • " However, I was not depending upon or following the nature of language when I inserted the word “solum” (alone) in Rom. 3 as the text itself, and St. Paul’s meaning, urgently necessitated and demanded it " iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt
  • This shows his disposition. There was no working with that guy
Re: “the saving work of Jesus on the cross”, doesn’t then translate into a person can then believe or reject what they want without consequences. That would be relativism.

That’s my :twocents: 🙂
 
The Western Church had the Gospel and the Sacraments and that never changed until Pope Gregory and Leo X decided to introduce some innovations.
Like what?
L:
All Luther and company did was remove the accretions of unnecessary traditions and return to the basics of Biblical teaching.
Now THAT’S a REAL WHOPPER!!! :rolleyes:
L:
No, as Luther was the son of parents, Lutheranism developed out of the Western Church, retaining her sacraments and proclaiming the Gospel, even as the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers did.
Lutherans developed on their own. They were cut off from the Catholic Church. No branch, no offshoot etc etc.

To have valid sacraments, there must be valid holy orders. The Catholic Church doesn’t recognize Lutheran ordinations as valid
L:
You note that I will give you a link, which you may or may not access, as you will. Quote bombing and using obscure theological terms only takes away from the pure and simple Message of the Gospel. Stroking an institutional ego won’t lessen the validity of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in the eyes of God.
Q: is the following true?
  • Prior to 1988, the ELCA did not exist usalutherans.tripod.com/id1.html
  • How about ELCA and LCMS… I hear there are major disagreements between the two bodies.
 
Okay, I’ve read all 34 pages of this discussion, so far, and here’s my take. When I look at Protestantism vs. Catholicism, I see the exact same thing that happened in the 1st book of Kings (I believe it’s chapters 10-12). King Solomon had become corrupt. He had laid heavy taxes on his people for the building of the First Temple and his palace, and had many, many wives and concubines, the majority of which were from pagan nations from which the LORD had forbidden him to marry, who led him into worship of false gods. His servant, Jeroboam, ran off into the desert, and was told by a prophet that, when Solomon died, he would take 10 of the 12 Israelite tribes with him (it really turned out to be 9, because the tribe of Simeon had already been pretty much absorbed into the tribe of Judah, but that’s beside the point). The only tribes that would continue to be under the rule of the House of David would be Benjamin and Judah. So Jeroboam waited patiently for Solomon to die.

When Solomon died, his son Rehoboam rejected the wisdom of his elders and followed the advice of his peers. Because of this, Jeroboam was able to rally the rest of the tribes behind him and broke away from the House of David. Then, he established two false temples to the LORD, one in Bethel and the other in Dan. Each temple had a golden bull, which the Israelites worshiped as the LORD. He ordained laymen to be priests, etc., etc., etc. The Kingdom of Israel ended up in perpetual conflict with itself, deposing king after king after king. Eventually, Ahab showed up with his wife Jezebel and taught the Israelites to worship Baal (identified by secular sources as the Phonecian/Aramean “god” known as Hadad). Of course, Judah’s line ended up intermarrying with the House of Omri, but that’s beside the point. My point is that corruption led to schism. Schism led to false worship. False worship led to the eventual worship of something other than the true God.

In our case, corruption in the Catholic Church led to schism. Those that broke with the Church ended up teaching false doctrine. Eventually, some individuals and groups (not all, mind you, but some) ended up worshipping the false god of secularism, bowing to the altars of the “prosperity gospel”, “reproductive justice” and/or “marriage equality”, among others. Meanwhile, though leadership in the Catholic Church hasn’t always been completely virtuous, we, like the Kingdom of Judah, have kept a valid priesthood, have offered valid sacrifices, and have kept our same doctrines. Our doctrines are not subject to majority vote at any level, and are, in fact, unchangable (though our understandings of such doctrines can increase over time - especially as new words are developed to describe the doctrine).
 
In our case, corruption in the Catholic Church led to schism. Those that broke with the Church ended up teaching false doctrine. Eventually, some individuals and groups (not all, mind you, but some) ended up worshipping the false god of secularism, bowing to the altars of the “prosperity gospel”, “reproductive justice” and/or “marriage equality”, among others. Meanwhile, though leadership in the Catholic Church hasn’t always been completely virtuous, we, like the Kingdom of Judah, have kept a valid priesthood, have offered valid sacrifices, and have kept our same doctrines. Our doctrines are not subject to majority vote at any level, and are, in fact, unchangable (though our understandings of such doctrines can increase over time - especially as new words are developed to describe the doctrine).
Over 2000 years the Catholic Church has held 21 ecumenical councils. newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm and numerous local and regional councils.

At The council of Florence, there were Eastern Orthodox who came back to full communion with the chair of Peter. They became Eastern Catholics again

The Church is always, and has constantly reformed herself.
 
Like what?

Now THAT’S a REAL WHOPPER!!! :rolleyes:
Lutherans developed on their own. They were cut off from the Catholic Church. No branch, no offshoot etc etc.

To have valid sacraments, there must be valid holy orders. The Catholic Church doesn’t recognize Lutheran ordinations as valid

Q: is the following true?
  • Prior to 1988, the ELCA did not exist usalutherans.tripod.com/id1.html
  • How about ELCA and LCMS… I hear there are major disagreements between the two bodies.
Of course it is. :rolleyes: Your persistent use of the word " whopper" doesn’t invalidate my assertions and papal declarations don’t mean that much to the lives of most Lutherans. in short, we really don’t care. Here is our position: lcms.org/doctrine/scripturalprinciples Our position on almost everything else:lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition Our position on you guys 😃 :lcms.org/faqs/denominations#catholic.
 
in short, we really don’t care. Here is our position: lcms.org/doctrine/scripturalprinciples Our position on almost everything else:lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition Our position on you guys 😃 :lcms.org/faqs/denominations#catholic.
I already know what you guys say about us. That wasn’t my question

I asked

Q: is the following true?
  • Prior to 1988, the ELCA did not exist usalutherans.tripod.com/id1.html
  • How about ELCA and LCMS… I hear there are major disagreements between the two bodies.
BTW, I got the impression you were ELCA, #377 not LCMS? Was I wrong on that?
 
I already know what you guys say about us. That wasn’t my question

I asked

Q: is the following true?
  • Prior to 1988, the ELCA did not exist usalutherans.tripod.com/id1.html
  • How about ELCA and LCMS… I hear there are major disagreements between the two bodies.
BTW, I got the impression you were ELCA, #377 not LCMS? Was I wrong on that?
Yes, Steve it was a misunderstanding. LS said “Evangelical Lutheran Church” but not meaning the ELCA.

And, yes, there are major differences between the ELCA and the LCMS - the LCMS staying as conservative as it always has and the ELCA growing more liberal as time goes on. My pastor at the last church I belonged to said that the LCMS is continually praying and admonishing the ELCA in the hopes that they return to the foundational confessions.

The major areas of problems lie with opening up the pulpit to persons who are actively involved with SSA as well as marrying gay couples. The other issue is ordaining women as pastors.

We do not have open communion fellowship with them at this time…
 
Of course it is. :rolleyes: Your persistent use of the word " whopper" doesn’t invalidate my assertions and papal declarations don’t mean that much to the lives of most Lutherans. in short, we really don’t care. Here is our position: lcms.org/doctrine/scripturalprinciples Our position on almost everything else:lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition Our position on you guys 😃 :lcms.org/faqs/denominations#catholic.
Maybe that’s your problem, you don’t care. Maybe you should care, as Jesus prayed that ALL be ONE in Him!! We all know that the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church for over 1,500 years and it held true to what Jesus gave HIS Church no matter what kind of errors that were going on around it and among me of its members. The Catholic Church has outlived kingdoms, rulers of all kinds, persecution of every kind, sinners from within, sinners from without, and has through the Holy Spirit, kept the teachings of Jesus Christ, His Sacred Scripture and His 7 Sacraments true and Holy and intact within His Holy Catholic Church. Just as HE promised it would. Maybe you should open your heart and mind to what History has proven about the Catholic Church. I would suggest you give Christ’s Church a fair try. God Bless, Memaw
 
Yes, Steve it was a misunderstanding. LS said “Evangelical Lutheran Church” but not meaning the ELCA.

And, yes, there are major differences between the ELCA and the LCMS - the LCMS staying as conservative as it always has and the ELCA growing more liberal as time goes on. My pastor at the last church I belonged to said that the LCMS is continually praying and admonishing the ELCA in the hopes that they return to the foundational confessions.

The major areas of problems lie with opening up the pulpit to persons who are actively involved with SSA as well as marrying gay couples. The other issue is ordaining women as pastors.

We do not have open communion fellowship with them at this time…
Thanks

I have another question.

What does this mean? “Evangelical Lutheran Church” but not meaning the ELCA"
 
I think that you’ll find that the stricter, more conservative and Gospel True Churches are growing and that the more liberal churches are shrinking. I also think that you’ll find among the younger generation a renewed interest in the ancient Christian liturgies that were discounted as irrelevant by the 60s generation.
As a Catholic, this generally reflects what I think about the growth or disappearance of Protestantism.

I’d rather have a smaller number of “real” Christians practicing their faith than a large number of “faux” Christians. Christians were never meant to turn into pagans in order to boost membership numbers and make newbies “feel welcome in the church”.

I just find it ironic that things that original Christians would abhor and speak out against, our generation just can’t wait to embrace and celebrate.

As a former Protestant, I know many Protestants who sincerely love the Lord and strive to follow His teachings. I don’t have a problem with Protestantism per say.

I have more of a problem with people who claim to be Christian, but have no idea how to walk the walk.

I’d rather have people be honest and say that they aren’t Christian than act like false teaching is really Truth.

Have a great Sunday!
 
As a Catholic, this generally reflects what I think about the growth or disappearance of Protestantism.

I’d rather have a smaller number of “real” Christians practicing their faith than a large number of “faux” Christians. Christians were never meant to turn into pagans in order to boost membership numbers and make newbies “feel welcome in the church”.

I just find it ironic that things that original Christians would abhor and speak out against, our generation just can’t wait to embrace and celebrate.

As a former Protestant, I know many Protestants who sincerely love the Lord and strive to follow His teachings. I don’t have a problem with Protestantism per say.

I have more of a problem with people who claim to be Christian, but have no idea how to walk the walk.

I’d rather have people be honest and say that they aren’t Christian than act like false teaching is really Truth.

Have a great Sunday!
A wonderful Sunday to you as well. 🙂
 
It is kind of interesting that, historically during the reformation,** Martin Luther did not want to create a separate Church, apart from the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform the existing Catholic Church and get rid of the corruption** that had infested the Church at that time.
I would like to believe that. Congratulations! You are the first Protestant that I have ever known to say that.

If this were the case, why has Protestantism forgotten this? Why so much Catholic blood spilled at the hands of the Protestants? (Yes, I know the Church has blood on It’s hands as well, but I think it’s been rather lopsided over the centuries) Places like Britain, the Netherlands, and parts of Germany have been very inhospitable to the Church, her clergy, and her members.

I frequent many Protestant websites and know several hard-core Protestants personally; and nowhere have I ever read or heard that Luther wanted to simply “clean up” the Church. I often feel that the term “Reformation” is a misnomer. TRUE reformation did not occur until the Church began to clean itself up at the Council of Trent.

The Protestants did not reform the Church - they left it (the VISABLE Church).

I truly pray that one day ALL of Christendom will be united in One Church under the Supreme Headship of Christ the King. Imagine what could be accomplished in this world if we all were united!

I pray that the protest ends one day soon.
 
Thanks

I have another question.

What does this mean? “Evangelical Lutheran Church” but not meaning the ELCA"
I think - mind you - I think 😃 that it is an umbrella name for the Lutheran Churches with the descriptive term of Evangelical. Lutheran Scholar, JonNC, or Don can maybe clarify it better. I haven’t heard that term in a long time but the church I was baptized in (LCMS) had “Evangelical Lutheran Church” on the side of the original church building.

Blessings!

Rita
 
I would like to believe that. Congratulations! You are the first Protestant that I have ever known to say that.

If this were the case, why has Protestantism forgotten this? Why so much Catholic blood spilled at the hands of the Protestants? (Yes, I know the Church has blood on It’s hands as well, but I think it’s been rather lopsided over the centuries) Places like Britain, the Netherlands, and parts of Germany have been very inhospitable to the Church, her clergy, and her members.

I frequent many Protestant websites and know several hard-core Protestants personally; and nowhere have I ever read or heard that Luther wanted to simply “clean up” the Church. I often feel that the term “Reformation” is a misnomer. TRUE reformation did not occur until the Church began to clean itself up at the Council of Trent.

The Protestants did not reform the Church - they left it (the VISABLE Church).

I truly pray that one day ALL of Christendom will be united in One Church under the Supreme Headship of Christ the King. Imagine what could be accomplished in this world if we all were united!

I pray that the protest ends one day soon.
It’s true, rfournier. He did not want any church named after him - he did want to see some reform in the Catholic Church.
 
I would like to believe that. Congratulations! You are the first Protestant that I have ever known to say that.

If this were the case, why has Protestantism forgotten this? Why so much Catholic blood spilled at the hands of the Protestants? (Yes, I know the Church has blood on It’s hands as well, but I think it’s been rather lopsided over the centuries) Places like Britain, the Netherlands, and parts of Germany have been very inhospitable to the Church, her clergy, and her members.

I frequent many Protestant websites and know several hard-core Protestants personally; and nowhere have I ever read or heard that Luther wanted to simply “clean up” the Church. I often feel that the term “Reformation” is a misnomer. TRUE reformation did not occur until the Church began to clean itself up at the Council of Trent.

The Protestants did not reform the Church - they left it (the VISABLE Church).

I truly pray that one day ALL of Christendom will be united in One Church under the Supreme Headship of Christ the King. Imagine what could be accomplished in this world if we all were united!

I pray that the protest ends one day soon.
Instead of fussing over who did what and why, I think we should all seek the TRUTH. We should NEVER be afraid of the TRUTH. Not man’s “truth” but God’s TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw
 
I often feel that the term “Reformation” is a misnomer. TRUE reformation did not occur until the Church began to clean itself up at the Council of Trent.

The Protestants did not reform the Church - they left it (the VISABLE Church).

I pray that the protest ends one day soon.
It depends on which “side” you’re looking from - Protestants feel there was reformation and Catholics, no. Unfortunately, it is what it is and probably won’t change.

I, for one, am not protesting any more - I seek to learn what I can about Jesus and that’s part of the reason I’m here.

The most important thing we can all do is to continue to spread the Good News about Jesus and His death on the cross - taking all our sins and being the final sacrifice - His resurrection and imminent return. There are still people who have not heard but time is running short - technology is bringing the Gospel to places where it hadn’t been before.

God bless!

Rita
 
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