The end of Protestantism

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I think - mind you - I think 😃 that it is an umbrella name for the Lutheran Churches with the descriptive term of Evangelical.
That raises other questions re: the use of “Evangelical” in the name

Why isn’t the name “Evangelical Lutheran Church” not automatically associated with ELCA? What other Lutherans have Evangelical in their denominational name? Isn’t Evangelical Lutheran Church a proper name for a particular Lutheran body Just like LCMS is a proper name for THAT particular Lutheran body?

I only ask because from the previous post you mention there is quite a rift between ELCA and LCMS. It seems to me then, by adding “Evangelical” to the name of a denomination, that’s pointing to a particular body of Lutherans that another body of Lutherans have particular grievances with.

What am I missing here?
s:
I haven’t heard that term in a long time but the church I was baptized in (LCMS) had “Evangelical Lutheran Church” on the side of the original church building.

Blessings!

Rita
Is it possible the previous occupants of that building were ELCA, they left and the LCMS took over?
 
I often feel that the term “Reformation” is a misnomer.
I’m with you on that. What happened on the protestant side was a trainwreck
r:
TRUE reformation did not occur until the Church began to clean itself up at the Council of Trent.
Actually the Church has reformed herself throughout history. 21 ecumeniocal councils and tons of local and regional councils over the last 2000 years.

It’s also how she could deal with all The Great Heresies in history
 
It’s true, rfournier. He did not want any church named after him - he did want to see some reform in the Catholic Church.
Well… I see that THAT went according to plan.
Instead of fussing over who did what and why, I think we should all seek the TRUTH. We should NEVER be afraid of the TRUTH. Not man’s “truth” but God’s TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw
Good luck on getting MAN to agree on what GOD’S Truth is… Everyone seems to think they know what it is…
It depends on which “side” you’re looking from - Protestants feel there was reformation and Catholics, no. Unfortunately, it is what it is and probably won’t change.

Rita
The thing is, Rita, that religion is one of the VERY few things we humans CAN’T be objective about.

Christ is TRULY present in the Eucharist or He isn’t.

Christ established One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or He didn’t.

There is ONE Church with the Authority to DIFINITAVELY interpret Sacred Scripture or there isn’t.

The so-called Reformation was guided by the Holy Spirit or it wasn’t.

🤷🤷🤷
Actually the Church has reformed herself throughout history. 21 ecumeniocal councils and tons of local and regional councils over the last 2000 years.
Good point.
 
That raises other questions re: the use of “Evangelical” in the name

Why isn’t the name “Evangelical Lutheran Church” not automatically associated with ELCA? What other Lutherans have Evangelical in their denominational name? Isn’t Evangelical Lutheran Church a proper name for a particular Lutheran body Just like LCMS is a proper name for THAT particular Lutheran body?

I only ask because from the previous post you mention there is quite a rift between ELCA and LCMS. It seems to me then, by adding “Evangelical” to the name of a denomination, that’s pointing to a particular body of Lutherans that another body of Lutherans have particular grievances with.

What am I missing here?

Is it possible the previous occupants of that building were ELCA, they left and the LCMS took over?
Actually, your guess is as good as mine…The ELCA is a combination of 2 synods the LCA (Lutheran Church of America) and ALC (American Lutheran Church) and that’s what they were when I was baptized in 1978.

You can read their history here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America

History of the LCMS:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church%E2%80%93Missouri_Synod

They both tended to be more liberal from what I understand at that time and since they joined together they have gotten more and more liberal over the years.

Immanuel, my home church was founded on December 31, 1874 and it was a predominantly German church. I believe they had German services then, too and now, many of the members are direct descendants from the original members. There must have been a Synod at that time that was part of the ELC which is no direct ties to the two groups who became the ELCA in 1982.

The answer to your bolded question is no - that was the original building for my church.

I don’t know too much more about them except what I read in the Wikipedia article. In 1983 I had graduated from Concordia, Ann Arbor and started my career teaching in a couple LCMS parochial schools.

Again, the other guys in here probably know more than I do and would be able to answer a little better.

Hope that helps a bit in your understanding…

Rita
 
The thing is, Rita, that religion is one of the VERY few things we humans CAN’T be objective about.

Christ is TRULY present in the Eucharist or He isn’t.

Christ established One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or He didn’t.

There is ONE Church with the Authority to DIFINITAVELY interpret Sacred Scripture or there isn’t.

The so-called Reformation was guided by the Holy Spirit or it wasn’t.

🤷🤷🤷

You’re right. Unfortunately, the rift happened and, I believe that it is something that probably grieved God because we should not be arguing among ourselves but looking outward to proclaim Christ’s gospel. I don’t think the Holy Spirit has stopped working among any of the Christian organizations because God is bigger than we all imagine and takes the bad and works the good if His gospel is being spread.

At this point I believe in the Real Presence of our communion based on how it is defined by our confessions. Some of the other doctrines I still have problems with and I’m sorry if I offend people by saying that. If it weren’t for those specific issues you might be able to talk me into converting but, while I’m understanding more and more as we discuss doctrines in here, I wouldn’t be able to make a move.

Thanks for discussing this with me!

Take care

Rita

Good point.
 
Some of the other doctrines I still have problems with and I’m sorry if I offend people by saying that.
I have issues with certain aspects of Protestantism, so no offense taken!
If it weren’t for those specific issues you might be able to talk me into converting but, while I’m understanding more and more as we discuss doctrines in here, I wouldn’t be able to make a move.
Thanks for discussing this with me!
Take care
We are all still Christians, and we each have responsibility for our own souls. As such we must do what our conscience dictates after prayer and contemplation.

You are welcome for the discussion.

Pax Christi.
 
I would like to believe that. Congratulations! You are the first Protestant that I have ever known to say that.
Then you haven’t been reading my posts. 😃
If this were the case, why has Protestantism forgotten this?
Many reasons. Chiefest might be the American fear of anything ‘too European.’ And, until quite recently, what’s been more European than the pope? :o
Places like Britain, the Netherlands, and parts of Germany have been very inhospitable to the Church, her clergy, and her members.
Those places haven’t been particularly kind to Lutherans, either. Unionistic movements forced by the state is precisely why my Synod exists in America today – we escaped persecution by the German (Prussian) Emperors.
I frequent many Protestant websites and know several hard-core Protestants personally; and nowhere have I ever read or heard that Luther wanted to simply “clean up” the Church. I often feel that the term “Reformation” is a misnomer. TRUE reformation did not occur until the Church began to clean itself up at the Council of Trent.
Had that council come earlier, and had Lutherans been permitted to attend and fully participate, it might’ve been a different outcome. From what Luther thought would be his last public document:
Since Pope Paul III convoked a Council last year, to assemble at Mantua about Whitsuntide, and afterwards transferred it from Mantua, so that it is not yet known where he will or can fix it, and we on our part either had to expect that we would be summoned also to the Council or [to fear that we would] be condemned unsummoned, I was directed to compile and collect the articles of our doctrine [in order that it might be plain] in case of deliberation as to what and how far we would be both willing and able to yield to the Papists, and in what points we intended to persevere and abide to the end.
I have accordingly compiled these articles and presented them to our side. They have also been accepted and unanimously confessed by our side, and it has been resolved that, in case the Pope with his adherents should ever be so bold as seriously and in good faith, without lying and cheating, to hold a truly free [legitimate] Christian Council (as, indeed, he would be in duty bound to do), they be publicly delivered in order to set forth the Confession of our Faith.
But though the Romish court is so dreadfully afraid of a free Christian Council, and shuns the light so shamefully, that it has [entirely] removed, even from those who are on its side, the hope that it will ever permit a free Council, much less that it will itself hold one, whereat, as is just, they [many Papists] are greatly offended and have no little trouble on that account… I have determined meanwhile to publish these articles in plain print, so that, should I die before there would be a Council (as I fully expect and hope, because the knaves who flee the light and shun the day take such wretched pains to delay and hinder the Council), those who live and remain after me may have my testimony and confession to produce, in addition to the Confession which I have issued previously, whereby up to this time I have abided, and, by God’s grace, will abide.
…
But to return to the subject. I verily desire to see a truly Christian Council [assembled some time], in order that many matters and persons might be helped… But we see in the bishoprics everywhere so many parishes vacant and desolate that one’s heart would break, and yet neither the bishops nor canons care how the poor people live or die, for whom nevertheless Christ has died, and who are not permitted to hear Him speak with them as the true Shepherd with His sheep. This causes me to shudder and fear that at some time He may send a council of angels upon Germany utterly destroying us, like Sodom and Gomorrah, because we so wantonly mock Him with the Council.
…
Besides such necessary ecclesiastical affairs, there would be also in the political estate innumerable matters of great importance to improve. There is the disagreement between the princes and the states; usury and avarice have burst in like a flood, and have become lawful [are defended with a show of right]; wantonness, lewdness, extravagance in dress, gluttony, gambling, idle display, with all kinds of bad habits and wickedness, insubordination of subjects, of domestics and laborers, of every trade, also the exactions [and most exorbitant selling prices] of the peasants (and who can enumerate all?) have so increased that they cannot be rectified by ten Councils and twenty Diets. If such chief matters of the spiritual and worldly estates as are contrary to God would be considered in the Council, they would have all hands so full that the child’s play and absurdity of long gowns [official insignia], large tonsures, broad cinctures [or sashes], bishops’ or cardinals’ hats or maces, and like jugglery would in the mean time be forgotten. If we first had performed God’s command and order in the spiritual and secular estate, we would find time enough to reform food, clothing, tonsures, and surplices. But if we want to swallow such camels, and, instead, strain at gnats, let the beams stand and judge the motes, we also might indeed be satisfied with the Council.
…
O Lord Jesus Christ, do Thou Thyself convoke a Council, and deliver Thy servants by Thy glorious advent!
In a way, Lutherans are still “waiting for Mantua.” :o
I truly pray that one day ALL of Christendom will be united in One Church under the Supreme Headship of Christ the King. Imagine what could be accomplished in this world if we all were united!

I pray that the protest ends one day soon.
Amen. I pray the same. Daily.
 
Christ is TRULY present in the Eucharist or He isn’t.
Spiritually, yes
Christ established One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or He didn’t.
True. The Christian Chuch
There is ONE Church with the Authority to DIFINITAVELY interpret Sacred Scripture or there isn’t.
Isn’t in the terms that you are speaking of.
The so-called Reformation was guided by the Holy Spirit or it wasn’t.
It most certainly was.
 
What does this mean? “Evangelical Lutheran Church” but not meaning the ELCA"
It means what it means. 😃 LS is saying that he is part of the church, which is Evangelical (and Lutheran).

History lesson: during and since the Reformation, those churches that sided with the Lutheran Reformers styled themselves evangelische. They did not originally call themselves Lutheran - that was a derogatory term used by Roman Catholics. Over time, the ‘Lutheran’ moniker was adopted as our own. Evangelische still denotes a ‘Lutheran’ church in most of Europe. But America, as always, makes things more difficult. The English word for Evangelische, ‘Evangelical,’ has come to mean something different than what it did in the German. So the “Lutheran” bit was added. It’s simultaneously redundant (in German transliteration) and necessary (in English translation).

So to recap: Lutherans have essentially always called their churches “Evangelical Lutheran Churches.”
Why isn’t the name “Evangelical Lutheran Church” not automatically associated with ELCA?
Because, as I explained above, it’s not solely theirs. It belongs to every congregation that is Evangelical and Lutheran.
What other Lutherans have Evangelical in their denominational name?
Virtually every one. American examples: the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (formerly known as the Norwegian Synod of the American Evangelical Lutheran Church), the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the former Slovak Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Augsburg Confession in the United States of America (now the SELC district of the LCMS), and the LCMS itself also had it in the official “legal” incorporated name, once upon a time (The German Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Missouri, Ohio, and other states).

Outside of America, it is almost universal as well, with the exception of the Nordic once-state churches. Examples: The Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (which is no longer in fellowship with the ELCA or the Church of Sweden, instead engaging in dialogue with the LCMS), the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Liberia, the Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod in Southern Africa, the China Evangelical Lutheran Church, India Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Belgium, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Belgium, Evangelical Lutheran Free Church in Denmark, and many more.

Now before anyone tries to say, “Look at how fractured you Lutherans are!” I’d just like to point out that all of the churches I’ve named above are either already in full pulpit and altar fellowship with each other, or very close (ELS/WELS). The only real rift is between the Confessional synods on one side and the ELCA and the Nordic churches on the other.

So why the alphabet soup if we all the truly Evangelical Lutheran churches believe the same thing?
Because that’s how we immigrated and evangelized. Congregation by congregation and tribe by tribe, much like the Orthodox. These are our [sometimes overlapping] dioceses now.

But times have changed now and it doesn’t take three weeks to reach relatives one state away; why not just appoint a Lutheran head bishop to act as Lutheran “pope?”
Well, partly because the ELCA began as an attempt to do just that – but they did it at the expense of sound doctrine. And also because we still have hope that someday we’ll be able to say “Wir habem einum Papst!” to the historical Western Patriarch. We’re just waiting for him to come 'round. 😃
Isn’t Evangelical Lutheran Church a proper name for a particular Lutheran body Just like LCMS is a proper name for THAT particular Lutheran body?
It is both a proper name for a corporate body and a reference to the both visible and invisible Evangelical Lutheran Church that exists wherever the Gospel is clearly preached and the Sacraments rightly administered.
 
Spiritually, yes

True. The Christian Chuch
What is the Christian church. Who defines Christian practice? How does one know they are practicing the faith as Christ intends?
Isn’t in the terms that you are speaking of.
It most certainly was.
Surely you have some evidence…scriptural (bible alone) evidence preferred that the reformation was divinely inspired.

I can show scripture it wasn’t but will let you prove first.
 
What is the Christian church. Who defines Christian practice? How does one know they are practicing the faith as Christ intends?
'zactly.
  • Is the Christian church the one which practices infant baptism or adult?
  • Is the Christian church the one which does it by immersion or sprinkling?
  • Is the Christian church the one which says divorce and remarriage is adultery? Or is it the one which states it’s permissible?
  • Is the Christian church the one which says the Lord’s Day must be observed on the Sabbath or is it the one which state’s it’s on Sunday?
  • Is the Christian church the one which declares St. Paul’s writings to be anathema? Or is it the one which states that they are theopneustos?
  • Is the Christian church the one which says Jesus is Michael reincarnated? Or is it the one which states Jesus is the Eternal Logos?
  • Is the Christian church the one which says baptism is an ordinance or the one which declares it to be a sacrament?
  • Is the Christian church the one which has 7 sacraments? Or the one which states there are 4? Or the one which states there are 2? Or the one which states sacraments are unbiblical?
  • Is the Christian church the one which allows women pastors or the one which forbids it?
  • Is the Christian church the one which allows priests to marry or the one which forbids it?
 
What is the Christian church. Who defines Christian practice? How does one know they are practicing the faith as Christ intends?

Surely you have some evidence…scriptural (bible alone) evidence preferred that the reformation was divinely inspired.

I can show scripture it wasn’t but will let you prove first.
That is like me asking you to provide Scripture of the Marian Doctrines. 😉

I believe the Reformers were divinely inspired to bring about change to the Christian Church that needed to happen.
 
That is like me asking you to provide Scripture of the Marian Doctrines. 😉

I believe the Reformers were divinely inspired to bring about change to the Christian Church that needed to happen.
Which reformers? Calvin or Zwingli? Luther or Henry VIII? Or perhaps they just set the ball rolling for the real reformers later…Wesley or Smith? Perhaps Joseph Smith or ELLEN White?

You told me earlier in the other thread that to be a Christian you need to " place your faith hope and trust in [Jesus]". This no doubt is the fruit of the reformation. It is also contrary to scripture and Christian tradition.

This exact question was asked of Peter at Pentecost;

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. (‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭37-41‬ NASB)

So that is clearly the Gospel. From this passage alone, we know the Christian Faith involves, Faith, repentance and baptism. We can move through the scripture to find more instruction, but you make no mention of repentance and baptism being required.

So I say this fruit of the reformation is contrary to the gospel. The Bible says this about that;

Galatians 1:8

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
 
Which reformers? Calvin or Zwingli? Luther or Henry VIII? Or perhaps they just set the ball rolling for the real reformers later…Wesley or Smith? Perhaps Joseph Smith or ELLEN White?

You told me earlier in the other thread that to be a Christian you need to " place your faith hope and trust in [Jesus]". This no doubt is the fruit of the reformation. It is also contrary to scripture and Christian tradition.

This exact question was asked of Peter at Pentecost;

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. (‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭37-41‬ NASB)

So that is clearly the Gospel. From this passage alone, we know the Christian Faith involves, Faith, repentance and baptism. We can move through the scripture to find more instruction, but you make no mention of repentance and baptism being required.

So I say this fruit of the reformation is contrary to the gospel. The Bibke says this about that;

Galatians 1:8

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut
 
That is like me asking you to provide Scripture of the Marian Doctrines. 😉

I believe the Reformers were divinely inspired to bring about change to the Christian Church that needed to happen.
In addition here are some scriptures associated with division and splitting of the church- the direct action and fruit of the reformation.
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Matthew 12:25 "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, andevery city or house divided against itself will not stand.
1Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Phillipians 2:2 fulfill my joy by beinglike-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Psalms 133:1-3 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, Running down on the beard, The beard of Aaron, Running down on the edge of his garments. It is like the dew of Hermon, Descending upon the mountains of Zion; For there the LORD commanded the blessing— Life forevermore.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?1Corinthians 4:6-7 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. For who makes you differ from another?…
Romans 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Jude 1:19 These are sensual persons,who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfournier103 View Post
Christ is TRULY present in the Eucharist or He isn’t.

Spiritually, yes
He IS Present in the Eucharist in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Not the same as ‘spiritually’.
Quote:
Christ established One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or He didn’t.
True. The Christian Chuch
He founded the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. And the Protestants left it. We’re all Christians, but we are far from united on MANY things. What you are talking about is “church” with a lower case “c”.
Quote:
There is ONE Church with the Authority to DIFINITAVELY interpret Sacred Scripture or there isn’t.
Isn’t in the terms that you are speaking of.
Why in God’s Name would He NOT leave an established Church with a definitive teaching office? Protestantism unfortunately leaves too much to private interpretation.
Quote:
The so-called Reformation was guided by the Holy Spirit or it wasn’t.
It most certainly was.
Says you. The Catholic Church and their Devine Teaching Office doesn’t seem to think so (and I’ll bet the Orthodox don’t, either).

Do you have the authority to declare that the Reformation was guided by the Holy Spirit? How do you know?
 
He IS Present in the Eucharist in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Not the same as ‘spiritually’.
I’m ok with you believing that. I do not. 🙂
He founded the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. And the Protestants left it. We’re all Christians, but we are far from united on MANY things. What you are talking about is “church” with a lower case “c”.
Again I am glad you believe that. I also believe Jesus Christ is the founder of the Christian Church.
Why in God’s Name would He NOT leave an established Church with a definitive teaching office? Protestantism unfortunately leaves too much to private interpretation.
I agree. Hopefully God will show us all the same mercy.
Says you. The Catholic Church and their Devine Teaching Office doesn’t seem to think so (and I’ll bet the Orthodox don’t, either).
Do you have the authority to declare that the Reformation was guided by the Holy Spirit? How do you know?
Yes, says me and millions of others that serve God, love the Lord with all our soul and are born again!

Do you have the authority to say it was not?
 
I’m ok with you believing that. I do not. 🙂

Again I am glad you believe that. I also believe Jesus Christ is the founder of the Christian Church.

I agree. Hopefully God will show us all the same mercy.

Yes, says me and millions of others that serve God, love the Lord with all our soul and are born again!

Do you have the authority to say it was not?
The Bible, the sacred Tradition, the church Fathers, 1500 years of millions of pages of documents, the Orthodox etc…say it is contrary to the faith given by the apostles. So I don’t have authority but I don’t need it because the church Christ established snd the Scripture do have authority to say so…and they do.
 
The Bible, the sacred Tradition, the church Fathers, 1500 years of millions of pages of documents, the Orthodox etc…say it is contrary to the faith given by the apostles. So I don’t have authority but I don’t need it because the church Christ established snd the Scripture do have authority to say so…and they do.
Ok
 
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