The end of Protestantism

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Jon_S said:
The ‘protestant’ search backwards for ‘simplicity’ and directness – which, of course, though it contains some good or at least intelligible motives, is mistaken and indeed vain. Because ‘primitive Christianity’ is now and in spite of all ‘research’ will ever remain largely unknown; because ‘primitiveness’ is no guarantee of value, and is and was in great part a reflection of ignorance. Grave abuses were as much an element in Christian ‘liturgical’ behaviour from the beginning as now. (St Paul’s strictures on eucharistic behaviour are sufficient to show this!) Still more because ‘my church’ was not intended by Our Lord to be static or remain in perpetual childhood; but to be a living organism (likened to a plant), which develops and changes in externals by the interaction of its bequeathed divine life and history – the particular circumstances of the world into which it is set. There is no resemblance between the ‘mustard-seed’ and the full-grown tree. For those living in the days of its branching growth the Tree is the thing, for the history of a living thing is pan of its life, and the history of a divine thing is sacred. The wise may know that it began with a seed, but it is vain to try and dig it up, for it no longer exists, and the virtue and powers that it had now reside in the Tree. Very good: but in husbandry the authorities, the keepers of the Tree, must look after it, according to such wisdom as they possess, prune it, remove cankers, rid it of parasites, and so forth. (With trepidation, knowing how little their knowledge of growth is!) But they will certainly do harm, if they are obsessed with the desire of going back to the seed or even to the first youth of the plant when it was (as they imagine) pretty and unafflicted by evils. The other motive (now so confused with the primitivist one, even in the mind of any one of the reformers): aggiornamento: bringing up to date: that has its own grave dangers, as has been apparent throughout history. With this ‘ecumenicalness’ has also become confused,

-JRR Tolkien Letter 306

http://dunesproperties.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Angel_Oak.jpg
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Angel Oak, on St. John’s Island.

Been there a few times.

GKC
 
LutheranScholar said:
Lutheran pastors have never been, on a global scale, the focus of the kind of scandals we’ve seen rock the Catholic Church, what with charges not only of pedophilia, but of verbal, physical and emotional abuse of those they are charged to teach.
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Not been the focus by whom the media? Lutheranism is so small and splintered in most places in the world, it wouldn’t make much news outside parish circles or countries with many Lutherans like Norway:
reformation.com/CSA/lutheranabuse.html
inforum.com/news/crime/3660070-lutheran-pastor-mn-charged-sexually-abusing-three-boys
speroforum.com/a/36724/Lutheran-female-bishop-resigns-in-pedophile-coverup-scandal
The Holy Spirit led me to the doors of my Lutheran Church Missouri Synod as someone with an open heart who was willing to learn. I’ve been embraced and accepted by Lutherans as I had never been as a Baptist ( the church I was raised in ) or as a Catholic.
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I’m sure your more mature perspective and willingness to be accepted had some small part to play, don’t you think?
The Lutherans also make it possible for me to serve the church, to proclaim the Word and to have a direct influence on the affairs of the congregation.
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Many parishes make non-doctrinal decisions as a body and many Catholic pastors choose to let their congregation vote or carry consensus. This isn’t limited to protestants. On the flip side, many Lutheran parishes exist where the pastor allows no deviation from his personal ideas.
With the Word and Sacrament, I am assured of salvation. Where is that assurance in the Catholic Church?
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In Christ’s Body the Church and His perpetual Grace.
 
Memaw said:
And you walked away from the TRUE Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Holy Mass and Blessed Sacrament !! Evidently you didn’t know your Catholic Faith very well. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw
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I know how frustrating an eye- roll emoticon can be, so I won’t use it. Suffice it to say that in my Catholic days, I had studied the CCC backwards and forwards, I’m close to DC, so I’d been on pilgrimage to the Basilica more than once, I briefly wore a scapular, I did my devotions to the Blessed sacrament, said the Rosary several times a month, Francis was my confirmation name and St. Francis of Assisi was a model of living the Christian life tome. I partook of the Eucharist and during Reconciliation, I would get into excruciating detail with my Father Confessor. I lit a candle annually on my deceased grandmother’s birthday. Granny was a Catholic born to a Cajun Roman Catholic mother… I visited the monastery in Berryville, VA. I’ve attended EF Mass in Latin. At one point, I went to daily Morning Mass before work and I went to the Blessed Sacrament right after. My faith was a big part of who I was. I am rather of the opinion that I was rather *well *acquainted with my Catholic Faith.
 
Jon_S said:
Still more because ‘my church’ was not intended by Our Lord to be static or remain in perpetual childhood; but to be a living organism (likened to a plant), which develops and changes in externals by the interaction of its bequeathed divine life and history – the particular circumstances of the world into which it is set. There is no resemblance between the ‘mustard-seed’ and the full-grown tree.
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That’s why some of us have things like women pastors now, because our denominations are not static and have not remained in perpetual childhood but have developed and changed. They are no longer mustard seeds but full-grown trees 😃
 
LutheranScholar said:
I know how frustrating an eye- roll emoticon can be, so I won’t use it. Suffice it to say that in my Catholic days, I had studied the CCC backwards and forwards, I’m close to DC, so I’d been on pilgrimage to the Basilica more than once, I briefly wore a scapular, I did my devotions to the Blessed sacrament, said the Rosary several times a month, Francis was my confirmation name and St. Francis of Assisi was a model of living the Christian life tome. I partook of the Eucharist and during Reconciliation, I would get into excruciating detail with my Father Confessor. I lit a candle annually on my deceased grandmother’s birthday. Granny was a Catholic born to a Cajun Roman Catholic mother… I visited the monastery in Berryville, VA. I’ve attended EF Mass in Latin. At one point, I went to daily Morning Mass before work and I went to the Blessed Sacrament right after. My faith was a big part of who I was. I am rather of the opinion that I was rather *well *acquainted with my Catholic Faith.
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Yeah…but had you converted your heart to Christ?

These things are all wonderful and grace filled, but did you have faith? Real faith? The faith that brings conversion of heart?
 
LutheranScholar said:
I am rather of the opinion that I was rather *well *acquainted with my Catholic Faith.
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I am puzzled by this bold statement, given that in the past week you’ve started a thread asking for an explanation of purgatory.

Clearly, you could not offer apologia for that very basic Catholic teaching. :hmmm:
 
Thorolfr said:
That’s why some of us have things like women pastors now, because our denominations are not static and have not remained in perpetual childhood but have developed and changed. They are no longer mustard seeds but full-grown trees 😃
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Of course, one could argue that that isn’t a full grown tree at all, but something akin to tree fungi. It feeds off the tree roots and branches, looks like part of the tree and lives off it’s sustenance, but is in fact a foreign substance that when run rampant, will slowly kill the host.
 
Thorolfr said:
That’s why some of us have things like women pastors now, because our denominations are not static and have not remained in perpetual childhood but have developed and changed. They are no longer mustard seeds but full-grown trees 😃
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You clearly misunderstand the quote…otherwise you would be part of the most “progressive” church you could find.

That said, there is nothing wrong with women pastors in protestantism. They have a different ecclesiology and don’t believe sacraments. Women can’t be priests but that’s different than leading a bible study which is what protestant services are.
 
Jon_S said:
Yeah…but had you converted your heart to Christ?

These things are all wonderful and grace filled, but did you have faith? Real faith? The faith that brings conversion of heart?
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The Lord had not yet turned my heart to Him. The difference between my life then and my life now is nothing short of miraculous. I think I might’ve been a Catholic because my grandmother was born into that religion. I did everything I could* to *turn my heart to Christ, but it simply didn’t happen… not until I said that prayer that went, " okay, I’m tired of falling on my face. Whither wouldst Thou have me go, O Lord? Submit my heart, I pray, unto Thy Will." It was a long road, getting to that point.
 
PRmerger said:
I am puzzled by this bold statement, given that in the past week you’ve started a thread asking for an explanation of purgatory.

Clearly, you could not offer apologia for that very basic Catholic teaching. :hmmm:
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I thought I started that thread with my answer to that question. I’m well aware that the teaching is that Purgatory is a process of purgation, that unconfessed venial sins and reduced consequences of confessed mortal sins are purged away from one’s soul. As a Catholic, sure I could answer these questions, but I’m posting as a Lutheran.
 
LutheranScholar said:
The Lord had not yet turned my heart to Him. The difference between my life then and my life now is nothing short of miraculous. I think I might’ve been a Catholic because my grandmother was born into that religion. I did everything I could* to *turn my heart to Christ, but it simply didn’t happen… not until I said that prayer that went, " okay, I’m tired of falling on my face. Whither wouldst Thou have me go, O Lord? Submit my heart, I pray, unto Thy Will." It was a long road, getting to that point.
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Again, doesn’t this perhaps show it isn’t the Catholic Church that wasn’t open, it was you at that point, in your state in life. This is most telling “I did everything I could* to *turn my heart to Christ, but it simply didn’t happen” - there’s nothing anyone can “do”. It seems to me your worldview changed due to circumstances in life and maturing. One shouldn’t blame the Catholic Church when it’s your vision that was corrected by God’s grace. Neither should you presume that God is done with you. Perhaps there is room for more. Even another look at the Catholic Church with fresh lenses.
 
LutheranScholar said:
The Lord had not yet turned my heart to Him. The difference between my life then and my life now is nothing short of miraculous. I think I might’ve been a Catholic because my grandmother was born into that religion. I did everything I could* to *turn my heart to Christ, but it simply didn’t happen… not until I said that prayer that went, " okay, I’m tired of falling on my face. Whither wouldst Thou have me go, O Lord? Submit my heart, I pray, unto Thy Will." It was a long road, getting to that point.
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Well I am saddened you felt you had to leave the church to experience the Lord. I think converting your heart while remaining in the church could have been even more miraculous.

Just for perspective. I was evangelical, Sunday school leader, vbs volunteer, camp counselor, bible study leader, son of deacons and son in law of elders, “born again” in name etc…

But I had not surrendered…truly surrendered my heart to the Lord. It was not until my conversion to Catholicism that that happened.

I think when we realize something dis enchanting with our faith tradition it makes it easy to look outside, and when looking outside and thinking of conversion, one must truly surrender their hearts to make the change. So I think emotional experiences are not the reason to convert. Although conversion is undoubtedly emotional, the conversion should be based on truth and facts because the emotional/ feeling aspects are easily mistaken and a general byproduct of life changes regardless of if the life change is correct or not.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Again, doesn’t this perhaps show it isn’t the Catholic Church that wasn’t open, it was you at that point, in your state in life. This is most telling “I did everything I could* to *turn my heart to Christ, but it simply didn’t happen” - there’s nothing anyone can “do”. It seems to me your worldview changed due to circumstances in life and maturing. One shouldn’t blame the Catholic Church when it’s your vision that was corrected by God’s grace.
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Granted. I’m not saying that the Catholic Church kept me in the dark, though. I was walking in darkness for awhile and after those circumstances you spoke of occurred, I found myself in a Confessional Lutheran Church. I’m saying that I was among the Lutherans when God lifted the blinders from my eyes. The Catholic Church has plenty of good to her as you all know. I do not deny this. When a priest in the pulpit in the Diocese of Richmond talks in a homily about his gay friend in New Orleans committing suicide and then saying that he didn’t believe that homosexuality was a sin or that suicide wouldn’t necessarily keep someone from Heaven, I took a step back. When the priest who confirmed me went off with a married woman and wound up working as an Episcopal rector, I do not blame Catholic doctrine. That, like the Lutheran Confessions, remains the same. When someone puts a praise band in the sanctuary for Mass, maybe it is good and uplifting for people. I prefer a sedate, unchanging liturgy. When I’m arguing *for *the Catholic church against my very anti- Catholic wife at the time and her family, after awhile, I get worn down. I’m sinful. I can’t do it by myself, I know I can’t do it by myself, so I invite the Holy Spirit to direct me to the Church He wants me in.
 
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