The End of the Consumer Church in America

[CollegeCatholic]

I’m tired of seeing BMW’s and Cadillacs in the parking lots of Catholic Churches.* (*not to be taken literally)

I’m tired of the Church being pushed around by the US Government. (Catholic Charities required to include birth control in their medical coverage)

I’m tired of God’s “material blessings” being at the forefront of homilies and Social Justice being moved into the background. I’m tired of the divide between inner-city parishes and suburbian parishes, Spanish parishes and English parishes.

While an entire theology has been developed around wealth/power/poverty in South America, the most powerful, richest nation in the world has little concern with the implications of the Gospel message on the “average-Joe/Jane” American. The average annual income in the US is $45,000 while the average income of East Timor (90% Catholic) is $400.
While we hold on to and justify our $50,000 SUV’s and mini-mansions, the figure of Christ is naked, cold, hungry, and sitting in jail. While we are clenching our extra tax dollars we are failing to stand for truth by clinging to our tax exempt status.

Why are we allowing politicians to say they are Catholic at home but atheist in office? Why do we feed this perverted, consumer/capitalist version of Christmas? Easter? Why do we buy several thousand dollar diamond rings when they have no basis in Church tradition? How can we call ourselves good Catholics when our Faith is only expressed in works of CONVENIENT love?

We are at a point in this country where the standard of living is so high that we feel like we are suffering financially to be there. Even the “modest livers” among us own such “essentials” as microwaves, carpeting, hot water heaters, cable tv, broadband internet, big screen tv’s, preprocessed/packaged foods, cd and dvd collections, cars with a value > $20,000, etc…

Even for those of us who DO “give,” are we the rich men with gold or the women with the copper pennies? Do we feel like we are giving copper pennies because our standard of living is putting us in debt?

Who on the forums recognizes how consumed we are by materialism/consumerism? Who doesn’t agree? Who sees “devout” Catholics fighting social programs that help the poor? (not including birth control and abortion type initiatives)

We need to do a better job of representing “Christian economics” and educating the Church in America. If I meet another hardcore, antiwelfare Republican “devout” Catholic I am going to puke. (I am non-Partisan) We are supposed to be a voice of truth and yet I see us “blaming the victim,” calling people lazy, and developing spending habits that are practically indiscernable from the rest of secular society.

We need to stop being American and start being Jesus to the world. An American life is no more valuable than a Mexican life (or Iraqi life) and as such we need to stop turning our back on the poor of the world (including many of our own parishoners) and start answering Christ’s command to love our neighbor as ourself and thus, love Christ by loving the least of these.

(This is all a major generalization done by me, an economically liberal, ideal minded College student who has been studying Blessed Teresa and Liberation Theology for the last year. Mind you, I am a moderate in terms of Liberation Theology and also MAJORLY support pacifism but also recognize the RARE possibility for just war. I am VERY opposed to capital punishment (in the first-world context) and consider you to be in grave sin if you support it, regardless of who did what (yes, even terrorism.))

What do you all have to say?

(I see this as a defense of “true” Catholic faith as apposed to what I see in general in the Church in America. If this is not ok in “Apologetics” please move it!)

 

[Wolseley]

I’m tired of God’s “material blessings” being at the forefront of homilies and Social Justice being moved into the background.

I’m equally tired of “social justice” being the contant cry and personal holiness and sanctity totally disregarded.

Heavens, we can’t talk about sin, yanno—somebody might be offended.

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

You’d like the book *Happy We Poor * by Thomas Dubay. It addresses evangelical poverty.

However, the conversion to evangelical poverty must be interior. The closer one gets to Christ, the more he will feel the call.

I’m not there yet. But, I recognize the beauty of it.

However, we can’t judge the state of someone’s conversion. I’ve always be dismissive of Mansion type houses until one person pointed out the Mansion ish (that is a new word, I think!) house that an aquaintance reared 13 kids in. I know several of those kids and their children and I am most impressed with their lives!! Devout Catholics with big families. So, we cannot know how the wealth is being lived.

For one thing, my brother in law has a company car that is flashy. But, he has paid nothing for it and his company prefers that he drives an “impressive” vehicle. So, in that case, the car does not reflect his interior life.

Still, we should all pray and discern how we use our material things.

 

[RobNY]

I am VERY opposed to capital punishment (in the first-world context) and consider you to be in grave sin if you support it, regardless of who did what (yes, even terrorism.))

My first thoughts were to tell you off in a very unkind manner. But I’d appreciate if you’d stop acting so righteous for just a moment while you castigate the supposedly phony Catholics who are also conservative. The simple fact about capital punishment is that it is not intinstically wrong so it can be supported in certain circumstances. It is extremely presumptuous of you to consider people who support capital punishment to be in, “grave sin” when you have no way of telling the subjective state of their soul. Don’t even go there.

And also, ‘regardless of who did what’ totally destroys the idea of applying capital punishment based on how society can contain a person. With a terrorist, as opposed to a common criminal, this may be different. By taking capital punishment and denying that it can be used, ‘regardless,’ you rip it out of context of Catholic teaching which does indeed allow it. It comes down to a specific case and specific circumstances.

And yes, people are too concerned with materialism/consumerism, I do agree.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

I’m equally tired of “social justice” being the contant cry and personal holiness and sanctity totally disregarded.

Heavens, we can’t talk about sin, yanno—somebody might be offended.

If you can honestly say that the Church in America (aka the average American parish) is more focused on social justice than personal sactity then I am amazed that you live in such a microcosm. Secondly, personal holiness/sactification is inseperable from social justice. We are called to be both Jesus to the world and recognize Jesus within each individual in the world, especially those in most need. As such, the call to holiness is also the call of hearing the cry of the poor.* (Poor being all who are in need.) Speaking of sin, one of the greatest sins that we face is our failure to act with the amazing politcal/economic graces that we as Americans have recieved. God has given us a whole sheet of cookies and we are eating 'til our stomaches ache instead of sharing. “Why do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ Where were you when I was cold and hungry, naked and imprisoned?”

My first thoughts were to tell you off in a very unkind manner. But I’d appreciate if you’d stop acting so righteous for just a moment while you castigate the supposedly phony Catholics who are also conservative. The simple fact about capital punishment is that it is not intinstically wrong so it can be supported in certain circumstances. It is extremely presumptuous of you to consider people who support capital punishment to be in, “grave sin” when you have no way of telling the subjective state of their soul. Don’t even go there.

And also, ‘regardless of who did what’ totally destroys the idea of applying capital punishment based on how society can contain a person. With a terrorist, as opposed to a common criminal, this may be different. By taking capital punishment and denying that it can be used, ‘regardless,’ you rip it out of context of Catholic teaching which does indeed allow it. It comes down to a specific case and specific circumstances.

And yes, people are too concerned with materialism/consumerism, I do agree.

You sound like one of those supporters, I am very sorry. If not, I am still very sorry that you would have sympathies for that view point. While I would love to go into a very long discussion about why capital punishment IS intrinsically wrong in the first-world context, I simply ask you this: what would Christ think about us killing a person who no longer poses a threat? In the first world, they are behind bars, held in isolation, guarded, and we kill them. Tell me how that is not intrinsically wrong? Also, ignoring the fact that there is hardly ever a time when someone is proven 100% to have done something, what they did doesn’t matter. Why? Because you are calling for JUSTICE and justice is not our job. Who are you, or who are WE, to say that what someone potentially did is worth the ultimate earthly punishment? We rip away their God-given right to life, we set them apart from all humanity and say that their life is of less value, we rip away their God-given right to repentance… the list goes on. There is no room for “another opinion” because in the first-world context, killing an unarmed, detained man systematically through the use of capital punishment is killing a man in cold blood. If that’s not intrinsically evil, nothing is.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

JMJ Theresa:

You’d like the book *Happy We Poor * by Thomas Dubay. It addresses evangelical poverty.

However, the conversion to evangelical poverty must be interior. The closer one gets to Christ, the more he will feel the call.

I’m not there yet. But, I recognize the beauty of it.

However, we can’t judge the state of someone’s conversion. I’ve always be dismissive of Mansion type houses until one person pointed out the Mansion ish (that is a new word, I think!) house that an aquaintance reared 13 kids in. I know several of those kids and their children and I am most impressed with their lives!! Devout Catholics with big families. So, we cannot know how the wealth is being lived.

For one thing, my brother in law has a company car that is flashy. But, he has paid nothing for it and his company prefers that he drives an “impressive” vehicle. So, in that case, the car does not reflect his interior life.

** Still, we should all pray and discern how we use our material things. **

You have to remember that much of what I said was a generalization and as such, there does exist the possibility for exceptions. At the same time, we are too quick to “justify” things. I know many Catholic families with many children and some of them have huge houses and others have more modest houses. It’s important that we not base our standards on the American experience and remember that there are Catholic (and non-Catholic) families with many children and they are living in slums, both in our country and especially elsewhere in the world. With that said, our interior life and exterior life cannot possibly contradict one another. We are each a whole person.

I totally agree with your final point! My only suplement is that we pray to have an informed conscience and that we seek to educate ourselves on what economic/power problems exist and how best we can do our part to stand for the dignity of ALL human life from conception to natural death.

 

[BillyT92679]

CollegeCatholic:

If you can honestly say that the Church in America (aka the average American parish) is more focused on social justice than personal sactity then I am amazed that you live in such a microcosm. Secondly, personal holiness/sactification is inseperable from social justice. We are called to be both Jesus to the world and recognize Jesus within each individual in the world, especially those in most need. As such, the call to holiness is also the call of hearing the cry of the poor.* (Poor being all who are in need.) Speaking of sin, one of the greatest sins that we face is our failure to act with the amazing politcal/economic graces that we as Americans have recieved. God has given us a whole sheet of cookies and we are eating 'til our stomaches ache instead of sharing. “Why do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ Where were you when I was cold and hungry, naked and imprisoned?”

You sound like one of those supporters, I am very sorry. If not, I am still very sorry that you would have sympathies for that view point. While I would love to go into a very long discussion about why capital punishment IS intrinsically wrong in the first-world context, I simply ask you this: what would Christ think about us killing a person who no longer poses a threat? In the first world, they are behind bars, held in isolation, guarded, and we kill them. Tell me how that is not intrinsically wrong? Also, ignoring the fact that there is hardly ever a time when someone is proven 100% to have done something, what they did doesn’t matter. Why? Because you are calling for JUSTICE and justice is not our job. Who are you, or who are WE, to say that what someone potentially did is worth the ultimate earthly punishment? We rip away their God-given right to life, we set them apart from all humanity and say that their life is of less value, we rip away their God-given right to repentance… the list goes on. There is no room for “another opinion” because in the first-world context, killing an unarmed, detained man systematically through the use of capital punishment is killing a man in cold blood. If that’s not intrinsically evil, nothing is.

The USCCB has been described, rightly or wrongly, as the Democratic Party at Prayer. It’s overwhelmingly concerned with Social Justice, which is fine… it’s a component of what Our Lord discusses in St. Matthew Chapter 25, though that discourse is even more so applicable to the individual person doing the corporal works of mercy, rather than a holistic societal change. If you’re not hearing the constant homilies on the necessity of aiding the poor, than you’re not attending Mass at about 95% of American parishes.

Social justice is an admirable thing but it’s too often used as a catch-all, lumping every issue together with equal merit, instead of clearly delineating what is not right and what is completely evil. Support for the poor is every Christian’s duty, but the issue of poverty is not equivalent in terms of moral justice as an issue like abortion is. Societal conditions that lead to poverty, although possibly reprehensible and certainly unfortunate, are not of themselves necessarily pure evil. The act of abortion, as murder itself, is.

Capital punishment, although something that in all practice has no and really should be abandoned, is an issue decided by the state… it’s not an absolute moral evil in the way that euthanasia is.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

BillyT92679:

The USCCB has been described, rightly or wrongly, as the Democratic Party at Prayer. It’s overwhelmingly concerned with Social Justice, which is fine… it’s a component of what Our Lord discusses in St. Matthew Chapter 25, though that discourse is even more so applicable to the individual person doing the corporal works of mercy, rather than a holistic societal change. If you’re not hearing the constant homilies on the necessity of aiding the poor, than you’re not attending Mass at about 95% of American parishes.

Social justice is an admirable thing but it’s too often used as a catch-all, lumping every issue together with equal merit, instead of clearly delineating what is not right and what is completely evil. Support for the poor is every Christian’s duty, but the issue of poverty is not equivalent in terms of moral justice as an issue like abortion is. Societal conditions that lead to poverty, although possibly reprehensible and certainly unfortunate, are not of themselves necessarily pure evil. The act of abortion, as murder itself, is.

Capital punishment, although something that in all practice has no and really should be abandoned, is an issue decided by the state… it’s not an absolute moral evil in the way that euthanasia is.

The Bishops conference does not represent the Church in America. Although they are certainly an important aspect, the heart of the Church is found in the individual parishes. With that said, I have actually talked to many priests who say that their parishoners would leave the Church if they gave homilies that got to the core of Christ’s teachings on Social Justice. Even though John Paul II supported the conclusion that God has preference for the poor (and the young) and I have yet to hear that message in any US parishes. If you hear that message a lot then you exist within a niche that I would enjoy being a part of.

The reason that social-justice has to be looked at holistically and all-encompassing is because that is the only way to approach it effectively. If you are not familiar with systems-theory, it might be helpful to study it. We have to recognize that everything is inter-related. If we eliminate poverty we would greatly reduce abortions, crime, starvation, racism, etc. For example, White Pine Indian Reservation leads the nation in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and general alcoholism runs rampant and this has one outstanding cause: lack of hope due to poverty/oppression. There is nothing wrong with Native Americans inherently and everthing wrong with the situation they have had, and continue, to live in.

How is capital punishment (in the first-world context) a lesser evil than euthanasia? Theoretically it is true that capital punishment is of a “lesser” degree of evil than euthanasia but in actual practice there can be no difference. Considering capital punishment targets the poor and minorities and often fails to actually PROVE guilt (reference the number of times death row inmates have been later proven innocent, even after having been killed) how can we find this acceptable? As long as a black man has 3x the chance of being put to death over a white man for the same crime, how can we act like capital punishment isn’t a great evil? The state is also in charge of abortion yet why do we fight that?

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

It appears that the Church does not declare an individual to be in a state of grave sin for supporting capital punishment. Thus, any individual who would make such an accusation would find himself or herself to be holding an opinion contrary to the official teaching of the Church. This is not to say that a person may not oppose the death penalty, fight for its reform or work for its complete abolition. In fact, this very passage from the Catechism is hardly an endorsement of the practice. To say that supporting the death penalty is a grave sin, however, is to say something the Church clearly does not say.

God bless!

 

[jimmy]

CollegeCatholic:

I’m tired of seeing BMW’s and Cadillacs in the parking lots of Catholic Churches.* (*not to be taken literally)

I’m tired of the Church being pushed around by the US Government. (Catholic Charities required to include birth control in their medical coverage)

…

(This is all a major generalization done by me, an economically liberal, ideal minded College student who has been studying Blessed Teresa and Liberation Theology for the last year. Mind you, I am a moderate in terms of Liberation Theology and also MAJORLY support pacifism but also recognize the RARE possibility for just war. I am VERY opposed to capital punishment (in the first-world context) and consider you to be in grave sin if you support it, regardless of who did what (yes, even terrorism.))

What do you all have to say?

(I see this as a defense of “true” Catholic faith as apposed to what I see in general in the Church in America. If this is not ok in “Apologetics” please move it!)

I agree to a point but as someone said above, you must be carefull that you don’t sacrifice personal holyness in order to have equality of economic status on earth. Liberation theology has this problem and it sacrifices the faith and spirituality of Catholicism for temporal comfort of the lower class. The point of Catholicism is to seperate yourself from the world and not to bring yourself deeper into the world and sacrifice God.

I can’t stand the way that America has become. Everyone has become so dependant that they can’t do anything on their own. They need their possessions and they don’t care about those who can’t have the basic needs of life. 50,000 dolar suvs and other things you mentioned are extreme excesses. Money is not inherently evil but if you are rich and your neighbor is poor and you do not help him then what is that saying about your soul?

A person is not in grave sin if they support capital punishment. They have the responsibility to follow their own conscience on this issue. For you it may be, but not for others. The Church recognizes that capital punishment is permissible for a nation.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

The Iambic Pen:

It appears that the Church does not declare an individual to be in a state of grave sin for supporting capital punishment. Thus, any individual who would make such an accusation would find himself or herself to be holding an opinion contrary to the official teaching of the Church. This is not to say that a person may not oppose the death penalty, fight for its reform or work for its complete abolition. In fact, this very passage from the Catechism is hardly an endorsement of the practice. To say that supporting the death penalty is a grave sin, however, is to say something the Church clearly does not say.

God bless!

How convenient that you missed the part that actually applies to my statement:

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

What this is really describing is the first-world context and the fact that absolute necessity for executing a person is indeed practically non-existent. My view is perfectly in-line with the Church’s teachings but expands on them to say that the situation in the United States, or more broadly the first-world, does not allow for the death penalty to exist justly and that the taking of a life in such a cold-blooded way must be approached in the same manner that other similiar grave sins are.

I agree to a point but as someone said above, you must be carefull that you don’t sacrifice personal holyness in order to have equality of economic status on earth. Liberation theology has this problem and it sacrifices the faith and spirituality of Catholicism for temporal comfort of the lower class. The point of Catholicism is to seperate yourself from the world and not to bring yourself deeper into the world and sacrifice God.

I can only assume that you haven’t studied Liberation Theology very much, or if you have, you’ve read the works of opponents to it but being that it IS a Catholic “theology” and not simply an economic movement, personal holiness and the awareness of the neighbor as equally valuable are integral and central to Liberation Theology. As JPII expressed:

Pacem in Terris (Pope John XXIII, 1963)
Man has the right to live. He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and finally, the necessary social services.

Sounds like something out of Liberation Theology to me… not only is Liberation Theology targetted at the poor, it is especially targetted at the rich and as such, can’t simply say “They shouldn’t be poor and you shouldn’t be rich” but “Those graces that God gives to you are surplus and are thus meant to be shared with the rest of God’s children who share with you an equality in both your being created in the image and likeness of God and given value in Christ’s universal sacrifice.”

A person is not in grave sin if they support capital punishment. They have the responsibility to follow their own conscience on this issue. For you it may be, but not for others. The Church recognizes that capital punishment is permissible for a nation.

In light of what I have said about the situation of capital punishment in the first-world, especially the US, there can be no differentiation between murder and capital punishment. If we are to call those who cooperate with abortions or cooperate in euthanasia or cooperate in murder in general and call them all in a state of grave sin, in light of the fact that these all go against the natural law and thus all people have a sense of the right and wrong in these cases, how then do we give “murder” a fancy name like “capital punishment” and seek to justify it? Do they not attempt that with abortion and call it “choice” or euthanasia and call it “mercy?” (If I misunderstood the nature of natural law and the state of sin therein, I apologize and please correct me.)

 

[CollegeCatholic]

I can’t stand the way that America has become. Everyone has become so dependant that they can’t do anything on their own. They need their possessions and they don’t care about those who can’t have the basic needs of life. 50,000 dolar suvs and other things you mentioned are extreme excesses. Money is not inherently evil but if you are rich and your neighbor is poor and you do not help him then what is that saying about your soul?

Exactly!

Everyone talks about John 3:16 and that is great but I REALLY like first John 3:16:

“The way we came to know love was that he laid down His life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If someone who had worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him? Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth.” I John 3:16-18

 

[RobNY]

CollegeCatholic:

You sound like one of those supporters, I am very sorry. If not, I am still very sorry that you would have sympathies for that view point.

This is incredibly insulting, patronizing and condescending. Do you even realize how you sound?

While I would love to go into a very long discussion about why capital punishment IS intrinsically wrong in the first-world context,

Something cannot be intrinsically wrong, “in context.” Something is intrinsically wrong in any context or in no context. You misunderstand what intrinsically wrong means. Abortion is intrinsically wrong. There is no context needed, I can tell you it is wrong. If I asked you if capital punishment is wrong you’d first have to ask me, first world or third world? And right away that shows it isn’t intrinsically wrong.

I simply ask you this: what would Christ think about us killing a person who no longer poses a threat?

He wouldn’t like it, I would bet. But who is advocating that? Stop constructing a strawman of my position and knocking it down. The question, between two honest Catholics, is whether or not the situation calls for it, and it is perfectly ok for one Catholic to come to the conclusion, honestly, that no situation will ever call for execution, and for another to come to the conclusion that it can be justified in certain situations.

In the first world, they are behind bars, held in isolation, guarded, and we kill them. Tell me how that is not intrinsically wrong?

Again, intrinstic wrong is not what you conceive it to be.

Also, ignoring the fact that there is hardly ever a time when someone is proven 100% to have done something, what they did doesn’t matter.

The 100% burden is nonsense. We don’t look for a 100% burden when declaring a just war, no more than we look for a 100% in our justice system. It’s not humanly possible.

Why? Because you are calling for JUSTICE and justice is not our job.

Then why are we always told to work for justice? Was it Paul VI who said, if you want peace, work for justice?

Who are you, or who are WE, to say that what someone potentially did is worth the ultimate earthly punishment?

The Catechism notes that ‘traditional Catholic teaching does not exclude recourse to captial punishment.’

We rip away their God-given right to life, we set them apart from all humanity and say that their life is of less value, we rip away their God-given right to repentance… the list goes on.

Argue this with the Church which does not see this quite the way you do. And they’ll have plenty of time for repentence in the years on death row.

There is no room for “another opinion” because in the first-world context, killing an unarmed, detained man systematically through the use of capital punishment is killing a man in cold blood. If that’s not intrinsically evil, nothing is.

You misunderstand, “intrinsic evil.” It may be situationally wrong everytime but that does not make it intrinsically evil.

 

[wjp984]

People work ahrd for their moeny and in most cases deserve it. My dad had to work 70 hours a week at times with 17 hour work days to get where he is as an executive and although now nearing 50 he doesn’t have to work as manby hours, he still worls his *** off given his age. He has every right in the world to want to enjoy some of the luxuries of this world and once he retires which he will soon, I hope he finally gets to enjpy hmself more. I do feel terrible how it has effected me and my brother and sister though. We have been so materialistic and just take and take without being apreciative of how hard my dad works. Without my dad I wouldn’t be able to go to college full time or get the high gpa I have since I would be working a full time going nowhere job, which by the way my had ahd to do while putting himself through college. To say that my dad is a bad person for being wealthy is very insulting. He is one of the most generous people I know and again has every right to enjoy himslef now that it is soon time for all of us to be indepenetn and no longer a financial burden to him.

Now, that being said, although it is a double standard since I in no way want to be unapreciative of what my dad has done for me, but I do not desire my dad’s way of life since I have seen how much happier familes are of just a confortable income where they have only what they need including the tv and internet and share everything to gether, while at the same time being more of a family. So even if I do slightly agree with you I still find your attitude completely insulting.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

CollegeCatholic:

I’m tired of seeing BMW’s and Cadillacs in the parking lots of Catholic Churches.* (*not to be taken literally)

I’m tired of the Church being pushed around by the US Government. (Catholic Charities required to include birth control in their medical coverage)

I’m tired of God’s “material blessings” being at the forefront of homilies and Social Justice being moved into the background. I’m tired of the divide between inner-city parishes and suburbian parishes, Spanish parishes and English parishes.

While an entire theology has been developed around wealth/power/poverty in South America, the most powerful, richest nation in the world has little concern with the implications of the Gospel message on the “average-Joe/Jane” American. The average annual income in the US is $45,000 while the average income of East Timor (90% Catholic) is $400.
While we hold on to and justify our $50,000 SUV’s and mini-mansions, the figure of Christ is naked, cold, hungry, and sitting in jail. While we are clenching our extra tax dollars we are failing to stand for truth by clinging to our tax exempt status.

Why are we allowing politicians to say they are Catholic at home but atheist in office? Why do we feed this perverted, consumer/capitalist version of Christmas? Easter? Why do we buy several thousand dollar diamond rings when they have no basis in Church tradition? How can we call ourselves good Catholics when our Faith is only expressed in works of CONVENIENT love?

We are at a point in this country where the standard of living is so high that we feel like we are suffering financially to be there. Even the “modest livers” among us own such “essentials” as microwaves, carpeting, hot water heaters, cable tv, broadband internet, big screen tv’s, preprocessed/packaged foods, cd and dvd collections, cars with a value > $20,000, etc…

Even for those of us who DO “give,” are we the rich men with gold or the women with the copper pennies? Do we feel like we are giving copper pennies because our standard of living is putting us in debt?

Who on the forums recognizes how consumed we are by materialism/consumerism? Who doesn’t agree? Who sees “devout” Catholics fighting social programs that help the poor? (not including birth control and abortion type initiatives)

We need to do a better job of representing “Christian economics” and educating the Church in America. If I meet another hardcore, antiwelfare Republican “devout” Catholic I am going to puke. (I am non-Partisan) We are supposed to be a voice of truth and yet I see us “blaming the victim,” calling people lazy, and developing spending habits that are practically indiscernable from the rest of secular society.

We need to stop being American and start being Jesus to the world. An American life is no more valuable than a Mexican life (or Iraqi life) and as such we need to stop turning our back on the poor of the world (including many of our own parishoners) and start answering Christ’s command to love our neighbor as ourself and thus, love Christ by loving the least of these.

(This is all a major generalization done by me, an economically liberal, ideal minded College student who has been studying Blessed Teresa and Liberation Theology for the last year. Mind you, I am a moderate in terms of Liberation Theology and also MAJORLY support pacifism but also recognize the RARE possibility for just war. I am VERY opposed to capital punishment (in the first-world context) and consider you to be in grave sin if you support it, regardless of who did what (yes, even terrorism.))

What do you all have to say?

(I see this as a defense of “true” Catholic faith as apposed to what I see in general in the Church in America. If this is not ok in “Apologetics” please move it!)

You might like some books published by IHS Press and also read up on the life of Blessed Dorothy Day. What are you doing to help the poor? You should check into the Society of Saint Vincent de Paul.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

RobNY:

This is incredibly insulting, patronizing and condescending. Do you even realize how you sound?

Something cannot be intrinsically wrong, “in context.” Something is intrinsically wrong in any context or in no context. You misunderstand what intrinsically wrong means. Abortion is intrinsically wrong. There is no context needed, I can tell you it is wrong. If I asked you if capital punishment is wrong you’d first have to ask me, first world or third world? And right away that shows it isn’t intrinsically wrong.

He wouldn’t like it, I would bet. But who is advocating that? Stop constructing a strawman of my position and knocking it down. The question, between two honest Catholics, is whether or not the situation calls for it, and it is perfectly ok for one Catholic to come to the conclusion, honestly, that no situation will ever call for execution, and for another to come to the conclusion that it can be justified in certain situations.

Again, intrinstic wrong is not what you conceive it to be.

The 100% burden is nonsense. We don’t look for a 100% burden when declaring a just war, no more than we look for a 100% in our justice system. It’s not humanly possible.

Then why are we always told to work for justice? Was it Paul VI who said, if you want peace, work for justice?

You misunderstand, “intrinsic evil.” It may be situationally wrong everytime but that does not make it intrinsically evil.

I will rephrase my “in context” assertions with simply “murder” as that is exactly what “capital punishment” is in the first-world. My distinction is not “capital punishment in so and so particular geographic area” but the act itself, as described by the phrase “capital punishment” is radically different in these contexts. One is seeking to protect life, the other is to bring forth some sort of “justice.”

Simply put, I am doing my (small) part to stand for the dignity of the human person from conception to natural death.

Also, my point was not that we need to prove 100% but it was simply one point of many. Even if we COULD prove 100% it still would be murder on our part.

Justice has both negative and positive meanings and we need to fight for positive justice such as ending poverty, not negative justice where we cut off the man’s hand that steals.

Beyond this I have assessed your other rebuttals in my existing replies that I’m not sure you have actually read.

People work ahrd for their moeny and in most cases deserve it. My dad had to work 70 hours a week at times with 17 hour work days to get where he is as an executive and although now nearing 50 he doesn’t have to work as manby hours, he still worls his *** off given his age. He has every right in the world to want to enjoy some of the luxuries of this world and once he retires which he will soon, I hope he finally gets to enjpy hmself more. I do feel terrible how it has effected me and my brother and sister though. We have been so materialistic and just take and take without being apreciative of how hard my dad works. Without my dad I wouldn’t be able to go to college full time or get the high gpa I have since I would be working a full time going nowhere job, which by the way my had ahd to do while putting himself through college. To say that my dad is a bad person for being wealthy is very insulting. He is one of the most generous people I know and again has every right to enjoy himslef now that it is soon time for all of us to be indepenetn and no longer a financial burden to him.

Now, that being said, although it is a double standard since I in no way want to be unapreciative of what my dad has done for me, but I do not desire my dad’s way of life since I have seen how much happier familes are of just a confortable income where they have only what they need including the tv and internet and share everything to gether, while at the same time being more of a family. So even if I do slightly agree with you I still find your attitude completely insulting.

Perhaps the fact that your family suffered at the result of your father’s focus on attaining wealth should be that which is insulting more than my questioning it. It is nice that you all have some financial stability and you can make your way through college but does God look upon such things as priorities? Also, do the ends (“earned” wealth and “stability”) justify the means (your family life/relationship (what about a “mom” figure?))
There are a lot of other points that I could contend but the point is that we have a high calling and it’s tough but ultimately fullfilling. We can not talk of “earning” because that would imply that others haven’t “earned” if they don’t have. Ignoring all other situations, the fact that a little over half of all homeless people suffer from some form of mental illness shows that much of the impoverished of the world are not able to “earn” and therefore need our help.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

You might like some books published by IHS Press and also read up on the life of Blessed Dorothy Day. What are you doing to help the poor? You should check into the Society of Saint Vincent de Paul.

If I had a dollar for every book I wanted/need/should read I would have a lot of $$! I will look into Blessed Dorothy Day! As far as what I am doing to help the poor all I can say is “NOT ENOUGH!” It makes me cry everytime I see and read of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta’s work with the poor and how open the eyes of her heart were to the Christ within the world’s populations, especially the “lowest of the low.” With that being said, I volunteer some of my weekends to help fix up the house of a wonderful Catholic couple who adopt special needs children (the Contractor in charge of this originally took off with their money! ) and I have begun volunteering at the different shelters in our area (our local chapter of the St. Vincent de Paul society is no longer affiliated with SVdP! It’s a women and childrens shelter and I was there for the day a few weekends ago.) Right now as a full time college student my main focus is on Catholic ministry on campus, high school religious education, and therein educating people on the implications of the Gospel message on issues of poverty (this is in addition to the plethora of wonderful teachings of Jesus and as expanded upon by His Church). At the end of this semester I graduate and will join FOCUS (Fellowship of Catholic University Students) where I hope to develop Catholic leadership on college campuses with a real sense of “radical” charity and general zeal for the Faith. Like Blessed Teresa said “So goes America, so goes the world.”

 

[wjp984]

CollegeCatholic:

I will rephrase my “in context”

Perhaps the fact that your family suffered at the result of your father’s focus on attaining wealth should be that which is insulting more than my questioning it. It is nice that you all have some financial stability and you can make your way through college but does God look upon such things as priorities? Also, do the ends (“earned” wealth and “stability”) justify the means (your family life/relationship (what about a “mom” figure?))
There are a lot of other points that I could contend but the point is that we have a high calling and it’s tough but ultimately fullfilling. We can not talk of “earning” because that would imply that others haven’t “earned” if they don’t have. Ignoring all other situations, the fact that a little over half of all homeless people suffer from some form of mental illness shows that much of the impoverished of the world are not able to “earn” and therefore need our help.

The short answer yes. Going to college and using the opportunites given to you, in my case financial stability thanks to the hard work of my father, is a priority I would think God would be concerned with. Not going to college and leeching off my dad’s money with no desire to use my God given talents would be wrong. My point still stands. My dad has earned the right to enjoy himslef a little while at the same time giving to charity and finally having time to help out with his parish.

 

[wjp984]

By the way. Have you ever heard of Tom Monaghan? He is a multimillonaire and devout Catholic and uses his wealth in many good ways including opening catholic universities and a law school, Ave Maria, while still being wealthy. I may even end up going there as it will be one of the schools I apply to next year while finishing off my undergraduate degree. I dare you to tell him that he is wrong for being wealthy.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

How convenient that you missed the part that actually applies to my statement:

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

What this is really describing is the first-world context and the fact that absolute necessity for executing a person is indeed practically non-existent. My view is perfectly in-line with the Church’s teachings but expands on them to say that the situation in the United States, or more broadly the first-world, does not allow for the death penalty to exist justly and that the taking of a life in such a cold-blooded way must be approached in the same manner that other similiar grave sins are.

My response is that you expand on the Church’s teachings by giving your own opinion of the justice of various First-World justice systems and declare a belief which the Church does not itself condemn to be a sin. If the absolute necessity for executing a person is practically non-existent, the implication is that the absolute necessity may in fact exist. As the Church does not define exactly when this absolute necessity does or does not exist, I would hesitate to accuse anyone of being in grave sin for supporting capital punishment in certain cases.

On another issue, if I ever meet another “devout” pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage, pro-euthanasia Christian of any church, I think I might puke. The moral views of the left in our country are of far greater concern to me than the social views of the right. A Christian can have legitimate reasons for opposing welfare, as well as legitimate reasons for supporting it, but I could never support a politician with the moral values of the left just because I agreed with his or her views on social justice.

At any rate, the above was certainly not an attack on you, as your moral values are clearly Christian. I must admit, though, that I am a conservative on most issues, and I have often seen people speak about social justice in one breath and then speak in favor of abortion, homosexual marriage, and other similiar issues with the next. It does tend to make one a bit wary.

So, let us all conduct ourselves with Christian charity to all, and let us thank God, that though we do not always agree about everything, we are united in Christ. And, as we are admonished by St. Paul, let us not forget the poor. God bless!