The End of the Consumer Church in America

[InnocentIII]

CollegeCatholic:

The Bishops conference does not represent the Church in America. Although they are certainly an important aspect, the heart of the Church is found in the individual parishes. With that said, I have actually talked to many priests who say that their parishoners would leave the Church if they gave homilies that got to the core of Christ’s teachings on Social Justice. Even though John Paul II supported the conclusion that God has preference for the poor (and the young) and I have yet to hear that message in any US parishes. If you hear that message a lot then you exist within a niche that I would enjoy being a part of.

The reason that social-justice has to be looked at holistically and all-encompassing is because that is the only way to approach it effectively. If you are not familiar with systems-theory, it might be helpful to study it. We have to recognize that everything is inter-related. If we eliminate poverty we would greatly reduce abortions, crime, starvation, racism, etc. For example, White Pine Indian Reservation leads the nation in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and general alcoholism runs rampant and this has one outstanding cause: lack of hope due to poverty/oppression. There is nothing wrong with Native Americans inherently and everthing wrong with the situation they have had, and continue, to live in.

How is capital punishment (in the first-world context) a lesser evil than euthanasia? Theoretically it is true that capital punishment is of a “lesser” degree of evil than euthanasia but in actual practice there can be no difference. Considering capital punishment targets the poor and minorities and often fails to actually PROVE guilt (reference the number of times death row inmates have been later proven innocent, even after having been killed) how can we find this acceptable? As long as a black man has 3x the chance of being put to death over a white man for the same crime, how can we act like capital punishment isn’t a great evil? The state is also in charge of abortion yet why do we fight that?

I wasn’t going to get into this debate but I can’t help it. You are a rude immature person with little theological depth and less understanding of the workings of the world. I have lived and worked in the third world and have actual experience of it. $400 a month sounds miniscule next to $45,000 per month, but at the same time monthly expenses in the third world are much less than in the first world. It has been proven over and over again (China is just the latest example) that economic growth is the surest path to wealth not income redistribution. Also 40 years of throwing money at social problems has NOT reduced crime, abortions or any other social ills. As for your theology, Christ called for a personal conversion. We are all called to acts of corporal mercy. We are certainly not called to steal from others to play Robin Hood to the poor. If we are please show me the exact reference.

Finally on capital punishment, your statement that YOU coonsider anyone who supports it to be in grave sin has absolutely no standing at all, unless you received a verified vision from Our Lord himself it is just your opinion. I can think of numerous things I would like to condemn as sin but fortunately no-one gave me the power of God or I would be dealing out destruction right left and centre. Argue your opinion by all means but don;t claim a divine sanction for it.

 

[InnocentIII]

CollegeCatholic:

I can only assume that you haven’t studied Liberation Theology very much, or if you have, you’ve read the works of opponents to it but being that it IS a Catholic “theology” and not simply an economic movement, personal holiness and the awareness of the neighbor as equally valuable are integral and central to Liberation Theology.

Actually Liberation Theology has been criticised and condemned several times for its focus on man and not God and its dressing up of marxism in theological language. It is a theology pushed by some Catholics and Catholic orders. You are a little too ready to accept a political program as a divine institution.

 

[Leon_Miguel]

There is a good article at

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0133.html

that shows how we are all in need of reform and to allow a genuine connection to God to be our first and foremost aim from which love of neighbour naturally flows. Unless the connection to God is the primary focus then the concern for neighbour soon degenerates into tyranny as Lenin observed in early communist Russia -

“I have deluded myself. Without doubt, it was necessary to free the oppressed masses. However, our methods resulted in other oppressions and gruesome massacres. You know I am deathly ill; I feel lost in an ocean of blood formed by countless victims. This was necessary to save our Russia, but it is too late to turn back. We would need ten Francis of Assisi”

 

[CollegeCatholic]

wjp984:

The short answer yes. Going to college and using the opportunites given to you, in my case financial stability thanks to the hard work of my father, is a priority I would think God would be concerned with. Not going to college and leeching off my dad’s money with no desire to use my God given talents would be wrong. My point still stands. My dad has earned the right to enjoy himslef a little while at the same time giving to charity and finally having time to help out with his parish.

You are one of the few elect of this world that will ever attend college and you can’t change the means in which you were able to attend college. WIth that said, although God was able to work through the situation with your dad focusing moreso on work than the family, it doesn’t make it right. Sept. 11 brought a lot of “unity” to the US but did that justify the means in which it happened? Of course not. That is an extreme example but fits the same formula. Your dad didn’t “earn” anything because he was blessed with the physical and mental well being to do so, the disposition to achieve, the initial empowerment that gave him clothes on his back to go to the job interview, a shower to clean himself before doing so, the food to give him enough strength to move, and the support of friends and family to have hope for the possibility of achievement. Your father “earned” none of this as all these graces were freely given to him by God with the only contraints being that he use these Graces for the love of God and neighbor. I’m not sure why we have such a sense of entitlement in this country but we fail to realize that all that we have supposedly “earned” was only due to a million and one factors that were actually completely outside of our control. I hate to say it but your father’s “toil and labor” is but a fraction compared to the invested work of many of this worlds individuals. Try 70 hours of manual labor with little nourishment for a tiny fraction of the wages and you can see the situation of much of the world.

By the way. Have you ever heard of Tom Monaghan? He is a multimillonaire and devout Catholic and uses his wealth in many good ways including opening catholic universities and a law school, Ave Maria, while still being wealthy. I may even end up going there as it will be one of the schools I apply to next year while finishing off my undergraduate degree. I dare you to tell him that he is wrong for being wealthy.

I have heard of him and I hope that he continues to use his wealth with the utmost charity. I cannot speak on his finances but all I can say is that the size of ones income has nothing to do with what I’m emphasizing. What one does with their income is the real question.

Tobit 4: 8-9
Son, give alms in proportion to what you own. If you have great wealth, give alms out of your abundance; if you have but little, distribute even some of that. But do not hesitate to give alms; you will be storing up a goodly treasure for yourself against the day of adversity.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

The Iambic Pen:

My response is that you expand on the Church’s teachings by giving your own opinion of the justice of various First-World justice systems and declare a belief which the Church does not itself condemn to be a sin. If the absolute necessity for executing a person is practically non-existent, the implication is that the absolute necessity may in fact exist. As the Church does not define exactly when this absolute necessity does or does not exist, I would hesitate to accuse anyone of being in grave sin for supporting capital punishment in certain cases.

On another issue, if I ever meet another “devout” pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage, pro-euthanasia Christian of any church, I think I might puke. The moral views of the left in our country are of far greater concern to me than the social views of the right. A Christian can have legitimate reasons for opposing welfare, as well as legitimate reasons for supporting it, but I could never support a politician with the moral values of the left just because I agreed with his or her views on social justice.

At any rate, the above was certainly not an attack on you, as your moral values are clearly Christian. I must admit, though, that I am a conservative on most issues, and I have often seen people speak about social justice in one breath and then speak in favor of abortion, homosexual marriage, and other similiar issues with the next. It does tend to make one a bit wary.

So, let us all conduct ourselves with Christian charity to all, and let us thank God, that though we do not always agree about everything, we are united in Christ. And, as we are admonished by St. Paul, let us not forget the poor. God bless!

The necessity to kill a person through the use of capital punishment in the United States does not exist. What do we call the unnecessary killing of a person? Murder.

As far as those supposed Christians go, at the very least they are blatant in their denial of Christ’s teachings. I would much rather the culture of death remain apparent and obvious than for it to find safe harbor within our very teachings. I can’t even believe that the death penalty is still “optional” as it is so obvious that this institution is in every way a lingering side effect of the culture of death.

As far as people speaking of social justice in one breath and support of all of those practices in another, I feel your pain. Our social work and sociology, religion and education departments are filled with those types of people. It hurts me greatly to feel like everyone is working against the culture of life. You have the liberals who seek to kill you before you’re born and have you born into a homosexual family while the conservatives seek to starve you or find a way to “justify” killing you through their ardent defense of systemic sin known as the death penalty. I have the abortionists, homosexuals, and euthanizers on one side and the capital punishers, economic oppressors, and warmongers on the other so everyone seems to attack me, not that I am that concerned.

I agree that we need to unite in Christ and by doing so, we are called to a holiness that is not fragmented by holistic in that our transformations in Christ transform all aspects of our lives, even the areas that seem so hard to hand over to God. For us in the US, money is one of those REALLY tough areas.

 

[seabird3579]

CollegeCatholic:

I’m tired of seeing BMW’s and Cadillacs in the parking lots of Catholic Churches.* (*not to be taken literally)

I’m tired of the Church being pushed around by the US Government. (Catholic Charities required to include birth control in their medical coverage)

CollegeCatholic:

We need to do a better job of representing “Christian economics” and educating the Church in America. If I meet another hardcore, antiwelfare Republican “devout” Catholic I am going to puke. (I am non-Partisan) We are supposed to be a voice of truth and yet I see us “blaming the victim,” calling people lazy, and developing spending habits that are practically indiscernable from the rest of secular society.

We need to stop being American and start being Jesus to the world. An American life is no more valuable than a Mexican life (or Iraqi life) and as such we need to stop turning our back on the poor of the world (including many of our own parishoners) and start answering Christ’s command to love our neighbor as ourself and thus, love Christ by loving the least of these.

CollegeCatholic, you make some very good points. Many of us feel the way you do. And, yes, we seem to be immediately accused of being “self-righteous.”

I don’t see your complaints being self-righteous at all. They are right on point, and a Correction badly needed by today’s Catholics.

You’re right to bring this to our attention, after all, Christ did come to comfort the afflicted and AFFLICT the comfortable. Keep up the good work of a well-formed conscience.

***Only one thing I would caution you on: Be careful with Liberation Theology, some of it goes a little over the top and starts to turn against the Magisterium. Don’t let that happen to you. The Holy Spirit has promised to guide the Church. He will not let us down. Hang in there, my family and I will pray for you.

 

[RobNY]

CollegeCatholic:

Justice has both negative and positive meanings and we need to fight for positive justice such as ending poverty, not negative justice where we cut off the man’s hand that steals.

Nor did I assert that justice in the social justice sense isn’t needed. It positively is. The works of mercy are necessary. But that doesn’t mean that justice in the sense of giving criminals punishments is any less needed.

Beyond this I have assessed your other rebuttals in my existing replies that I’m not sure you have actually read.

Listen, I don’t think you’re a bad person. But I do think that you have little idea how much you keep insulting the people here. First you judge the state of the souls of every person who in any way supports capital punishment by saying that you consider them to be in grave sin. This is flat out un-Catholic. No one knows the subjective state of someone’s soul except God. Since the Catechism is explicit that the death penalty is not absolutely wrong, and that there are ways that people can support it in good conscience, your assertion is highly offensive. And then you say, “I am very sorry” for me. Paul understand in Romans 14:

4 Who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Now, you’re questioning my sincerity. I read every word you addressed to me.

I’m just saying… step back and think about how your present yourself. It isn’t helping. Please stop assuming that Catholics who support the death penalty do so not in good conscience. Always assume the best of your opponent. Just because you come to a different prudential judgment than I do doesn’t mean that one of us is being morally bad.

My personal position is that capital punishment is moral in very limited ways in certain circumstances. It is possible that, even though I came to this position honestly and in good conscience, that I am wrong. If that is true, then seek to persuade, not to impugn.

 

[jimmy]

CollegeCatholic:

How convenient that you missed the part that actually applies to my statement:

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

What this is really describing is the first-world context and the fact that absolute necessity for executing a person is indeed practically non-existent. My view is perfectly in-line with the Church’s teachings but expands on them to say that the situation in the United States, or more broadly the first-world, does not allow for the death penalty to exist justly and that the taking of a life in such a cold-blooded way must be approached in the same manner that other similiar grave sins are.

I can only assume that you haven’t studied Liberation Theology very much, or if you have, you’ve read the works of opponents to it but being that it IS a Catholic “theology” and not simply an economic movement, personal holiness and the awareness of the neighbor as equally valuable are integral and central to Liberation Theology. As JPII expressed:

Pacem in Terris (Pope John XXIII, 1963)
Man has the right to live. He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and finally, the necessary social services.

Sounds like something out of Liberation Theology to me… not only is Liberation Theology targetted at the poor, it is especially targetted at the rich and as such, can’t simply say “They shouldn’t be poor and you shouldn’t be rich” but “Those graces that God gives to you are surplus and are thus meant to be shared with the rest of God’s children who share with you an equality in both your being created in the image and likeness of God and given value in Christ’s universal sacrifice.”

In light of what I have said about the situation of capital punishment in the first-world, especially the US, there can be no differentiation between murder and capital punishment. If we are to call those who cooperate with abortions or cooperate in euthanasia or cooperate in murder in general and call them all in a state of grave sin, in light of the fact that these all go against the natural law and thus all people have a sense of the right and wrong in these cases, how then do we give “murder” a fancy name like “capital punishment” and seek to justify it? Do they not attempt that with abortion and call it “choice” or euthanasia and call it “mercy?” (If I misunderstood the nature of natural law and the state of sin therein, I apologize and please correct me.)

JPII condemned liberation theology, it is not a doctrine of the Church. I agree that things are screwed up and that people should give to the poor and not live in such excess but liberation theology spawns error.

The Church supports the right of the country to have capitial punishment. That is the teaching of the Church. Your personal view can not restrict a persons conscience other than your own. Whether you think it to be murder is your view. I agree with you on it, but you can not say that it puts someone in grave sin if they do not agree.

 

[seabird3579]

John Paul II made it explicity clear that capital punishment should be extremely rare. He stated that it should only be used when there was no other way to keep society from being harmed. He talked against its use for revenge or punishment. It should be used solely as a protection of the greater common good. Today, we do have an alternative. It’s called Life without the Possibility of Parole. So really, there is no more reason to have the Death Penalty than there is for a woman to have a partial birth abortion to protect the life of the mother. Because everyone knows there is no valid, medically documented reason to have to have a partial birth abortion. Its all a smoke screen, and so is the death penalty to a large degree.

I have to agree with the Original Poster, we Catholics in America have a long way to go before we are fully in compliance with Roman Catholicism. But we hold out hope in God’s grace and mercy.

 

[oldfogey]

Amazing that I, as a father and the wage earner for my family, am supposed to be called to some sort of radical moral theology, and to not embrace it somehow makes me an exploiter of the poor, somehow equivalent to a robber baron or oppressive third world dictator.

Just the kind of sentimental nonsense that appears sometimes on these forums and makes my blood boil.

Multiple encyclicals on Catholic social morality, from Rerum Novarum on, have stressed that to be truly free, man should be able to enjoy the fruits of his labors and enjoy the right of private property. We should have the right to work and earn a commensurate wage. This does not include any right to exploit others, but it recognizes that material ownership is not an evil.

As a father and husband, I am also called to a vocation which entails a supreme obligation to my family, to provide for their spiritual, emotional, and material needs.

So, I do. I am a professional, I work hard, give to the Church, my family and I help the poor, and, blessed by God, we have little in material wants. If I don’t go to work tomorrow, guess what? It will all be gone, and I think it would be a sin for me to abrogate my responsibility to my family, for which I would have to answer to Our Lord, if I did.

Also, I have been working since I was 13, was born in a near slum, both my parents did piece work in factories all their lives, and prayed that I would not have to do the kind of work they did.

There are plenty of people like me, and I am nothing special, and I thank God for everything He has allowed me to have in my life. I try to be a good steward to all He has given me.

And I do not consider myself immoral, a despoiler or exploiter, regardless of people who think they can read men’s hearts by the kind of cars they drive or the houses they live in.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

InnocentIII:

I wasn’t going to get into this debate but I can’t help it. You are a rude immature person with little theological depth and less understanding of the workings of the world.

Thanks.

I have lived and worked in the third world and have actual experience of it. $400 a month sounds miniscule next to $45,000 per month, but at the same time monthly expenses in the third world are much less than in the first world. It has been proven over and over again (China is just the latest example) that economic growth is the surest path to wealth not income redistribution. Also 40 years of throwing money at social problems has NOT reduced crime, abortions or any other social ills. As for your theology, Christ called for a personal conversion. We are all called to acts of corporal mercy. We are certainly not called to steal from others to play Robin Hood to the poor. If we are please show me the exact reference.

Wow, a true capitalist with a libertarian twist. The US is more than twice as economically powerful as the second place country and yet we have one out of every seven people in our country who are living in poverty. My $45,000 US vs. $400 E. Timor was per year, not per month and the cost of living is only “higher” here because our standard of living is higher. Guess what? We pay less for goods than anyone else in the world. The US dollar is worth a ton and just because we pay for bread that is pre-packaged and pre-sliced doesn’t mean we pay more for wheat, flour, and eggs Ever tried to buy gasoline overseas? You aren’t going to be paying $2.15 per gallon, that’s for sure. Try $3.50 per liter or more.

As far as your “40 years of throwing money at social ills” comment do you honestly believe that we are “throwing” enough to actually make a great difference? Also, where are we “throwing” it? Social services represents one of the smallest budgets in the federal pool and yet it recieves some of the biggest cuts. Talk to any social worker and ask them if there is a ton of money available and they will plea to right your congressman to ask for more funding of social programs. The amount of case workers compared to how many clients in need is a VERY bad ratio. The social ills themselves are often targetted at the poor. Poor minorities are exponentially more likely to be jailed, to have an abortion, to end up on death row, to end up various addictions, and a massive chunk of the homeless suffer from untreated mental illness and you are going to tell me that the most economic powerful country in the world is doing just fine? That is certainly what you are implying by saying that the best way to handle these problems is through economic growth. We are as big as it gets when it comes to economics and yet 37 million Americans aren’t having their needs met. It really saddens me.

Centesimus Annus (Encyclical of Pope John Paul II, 1991)
The Church’s love for the poor, which is essential for her and a part of her constant tradition, impels her to give attention to a world in which poverty is threatening to assume massive proportions in spite of technological and economic progress. In the countries of the West, different forms of poverty are being experienced by groups which live on the margins of society, by the elderly and the sick, by the victims of consumerism and even more immediately by so many refugees and migrants.

Finally on capital punishment, your statement that YOU coonsider anyone who supports it to be in grave sin has absolutely no standing at all, unless you received a verified vision from Our Lord himself it is just your opinion. I can think of numerous things I would like to condemn as sin but fortunately no-one gave me the power of God or I would be dealing out destruction right left and centre. Argue your opinion by all means but don;t claim a divine sanction for it.

The Church is very clear on Her teaching on murder and it is blatantly obvious that the institution known as “capital punishment” in the US is simply that. It was not always this way and the Church has recognized that the necessity for capital punishment is practically nonexistent and I am saying that it is now nonexistent in the US and probably all first world countries with developed detention facilities.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

seabird3579:

CollegeCatholic, you make some very good points. Many of us feel the way you do. And, yes, we seem to be immediately accused of being “self-righteous.”

I don’t see your complaints being self-righteous at all. They are right on point, and a Correction badly needed by today’s Catholics.

You’re right to bring this to our attention, after all, Christ did come to comfort the afflicted and AFFLICT the comfortable. Keep up the good work of a well-formed conscience.

Thank you

***Only one thing I would caution you on: Be careful with Liberation Theology, some of it goes a little over the top and starts to turn against the Magisterium. Don’t let that happen to you. The Holy Spirit has promised to guide the Church. He will not let us down. Hang in there, my family and I will pray for you.

JPII condemned liberation theology, it is not a doctrine of the Church. I agree that things are screwed up and that people should give to the poor and not live in such excess but liberation theology spawns error.

Alrighty, let’s get this straight ya’ll:

THE CHURCH HAS NEVER CONDEMNED LIBERATION THEOLOGY. It has only condemned “some liberation theologians” as seen in the Instruction on Certain Aspects of “Theology of Liberation” written by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith August 6, 1984. How can we be instructed on certain aspects of Liberation Theology if they are simply condemning it?? How? 'Cause they aren’t condemming it. People got too radical, resorted to violence, undermined the Magesterium, and resorted to oversimplification of social criticism using inadequate, flawed tools such as Marxism. With that said, moderate Liberation Theology is fully supported by the Magesterium, especially among the laity. It is problematic for the clergy to become overlly involved with politics but that is an all together other issue. The Church has supported the idea that God has preferentiality for the poor and the young.
**
Psalm 103: 6**
Yahweh, who does what is right,
is always on the side of the oppressed.

John Paul II made it explicity clear that capital punishment should be extremely rare. He stated that it should only be used when there was no other way to keep society from being harmed. He talked against its use for revenge or punishment. It should be used solely as a protection of the greater common good. Today, we do have an alternative. It’s called Life without the Possibility of Parole. So really, there is no more reason to have the Death Penalty than there is for a woman to have a partial birth abortion to protect the life of the mother. Because everyone knows there is no valid, medically documented reason to have to have a partial birth abortion. Its all a smoke screen, and so is the death penalty to a large degree.

I have to agree with the Original Poster, we Catholics in America have a long way to go before we are fully in compliance with Roman Catholicism. But we hold out hope in God’s grace and mercy.

Great points! Thanks!
(JPII: We love you!)

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Amazing that I, as a father and the wage earner for my family, am supposed to be called to some sort of radical moral theology, and to not embrace it somehow makes me an exploiter of the poor, somehow equivalent to a robber baron or oppressive third world dictator.

Through colonialism, neo-colonialism, and simply capitalism, the economic system of the first world, especially the US when it comes to capitalism, requires competition for capital. With that said, you have winners and losers. The losers are often times colored, female, young, and handicapped either physically, mentally, or both. That’s a reality we have to live with.

Just the kind of sentimental nonsense that appears sometimes on these forums and makes my blood boil.

Multiple encyclicals on Catholic social morality, from Rerum Novarum on, have stressed that to be truly free, man should be able to enjoy the fruits of his labors and enjoy the right of private property. We should have the right to work and earn a commensurate wage. This does not include any right to exploit others, but it recognizes that material ownership is not an evil.

Like I said before, exploitation exists whether we like it or not. What are we to do about it? Also, material “ownership” IS evil if it is horded at the expense of those who do not have the means necessary to live.

“The way we came to know love was that he laid down His life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If someone who had worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him? Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth.” I John 3:16-18

As a father and husband, I am also called to a vocation which entails a supreme obligation to my family, to provide for their spiritual, emotional, and material needs.
So, I do. I am a professional, I work hard, give to the Church, my family and I help the poor, and, blessed by God, we have little in material wants. If I don’t go to work tomorrow, guess what? It will all be gone, and I think it would be a sin for me to abrogate my responsibility to my family, for which I would have to answer to Our Lord, if I did.

Could you please quote where I said one should deprive ones own family of basic necessities for the sake of others? On the contrary:

“If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tim 5:8).

The real question is “Am I providing myself and my family well beyond our basic needs and not being the woman with the copper coins?”

Also, I have been working since I was 13, was born in a near slum, both my parents did piece work in factories all their lives, and prayed that I would not have to do the kind of work they did.

There are plenty of people like me, and I am nothing special, and I thank God for everything He has allowed me to have in my life. I try to be a good steward to all He has given me.

And I do not consider myself immoral, a despoiler or exploiter, regardless of people who think they can read men’s hearts by the kind of cars they drive or the houses they live in.

The righteous heart cannot be hidden as it leads to a righteous life. True righteousness follows Christ’s greatest commandments: love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

We sure do a great job of loving ourselves, what are we doing for the neighbor?
**
1 John 4: 19-21**
Anyone who says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, is a liar,
since a man who does not love the brother that he can see cannot love God, whom he has never seen. So this is the commandment that he has given us, that anyone who loves God must also love his brother.

Many of us forget that we are ALL called to be saints. With that said, in light of how little we have and how great the need is how can we possibly make a difference? All we have is five loaves and two fish, what could God possibly do with that?

“You can do no great thing. Only small things with great love.”
Blessed Teresa of Calcutta

 

[wjp984]

You might want to consider moving to another country sicne you obviously are not happy in a country that has profit motive and the fredom to enjpoy the pleasures in life. May I suggest China or Vietnam?

 

[wjp984]

CollegeCatholic:

I have heard of him and I hope that he continues to use his wealth with the utmost charity. I cannot speak on his finances but all I can say is that the size of ones income has nothing to do with what I’m emphasizing. What one does with their income is the real question.

Tobit 4: 8-9
Son, give alms in proportion to what you own. If you have great wealth, give alms out of your abundance; if you have but little, distribute even some of that. But do not hesitate to give alms; you will be storing up a goodly treasure for yourself against the day of adversity.

You do realize that you just defeated your own argument with this repsonse. All I am saying is some are called to be wealty, others are called to be like Mother Teresa and all that matters is that you are faithul to God and try to be a good person. There is nothing wrong with being wealthy and enjoyiong one’s self.

 

[InnocentIII]

CollegeCatholic:

Wow, a true capitalist with a libertarian twist. The US is more than twice as economically powerful as the second place country and yet we have one out of every seven people in our country who are living in poverty. My $45,000 US vs. $400 E. Timor was per year, not per month and the cost of living is only “higher” here because our standard of living is higher. Ever tried to buy gasoline overseas? You aren’t going to be paying $2.15 per gallon, that’s for sure. Try $3.50 per liter or more.

Where do I begin. I was not aware that being a capitalist (which i am not) has been declared a mortal sin as yet. Although with your penchant for dealing out eternal damnation I am sure it soon will be. Yes I have bought petrol overseas. The most expensive petrol was in Europe that well known Third World continent. BTW have you ever lived overseas? In a Third World country? Real poverty is when you can’t get food to live not when you can’t get a new stereo. I lived for three years in Madagascar, one of the world’s poorest countries despite considerable resources. It is poor because it has been run according to socialist welfare principals for years. I have also lived in Kenya and in Australia where the number of poor seems to continually rise the more the government pays them. Go figure! Frankly you are just mouthing platitudes someone has taught you.

As far as your “40 years of throwing money at social ills” comment do you honestly believe that we are “throwing” enough to actually make a great difference? Also, where are we “throwing” it? Social services represents one of the smallest budgets in the federal pool and yet it recieves some of the biggest cuts. Talk to any social worker and ask them if there is a ton of money available and they will plea to right your congressman to ask for more funding of social programs. The amount of case workers compared to how many clients in need is a VERY bad ratio. The social ills themselves are often targetted at the poor. Poor minorities are exponentially more likely to be jailed, to have an abortion, to end up on death row, to end up various addictions, and a massive chunk of the homeless suffer from untreated mental illness and you are going to tell me that the most economic powerful country in the world is doing just fine? That is certainly what you are implying by saying that the best way to handle these problems is through economic growth. We are as big as it gets when it comes to economics and yet 37 million Americans aren’t having their needs met. It really saddens me.

I see you feel strongly about this so I expect to see an announcement from you shortly that you have given up your college career (clearly a luxury) and like St Francis have gone to live among the poor to minister to their needs. Not everyone can have the same lifestyle. Communism tried it and everyone just ended up poor. Perhaps that is true equality … when we all have as little as each other.

The Church is very clear on Her teaching on murder and it is blatantly obvious that the institution known as “capital punishment” in the US is simply that. It was not always this way and the Church has recognized that the necessity for capital punishment is practically nonexistent and I am saying that it is now nonexistent in the US and probably all first world countries with developed detention facilities.

The Church is indeed clear in its teaching on murder but it is you not the Church that declares capital punishment to be murder. You are using the Church to promote your own personal agenda.
The truth of all your assertions is not self-evident if you read a little more and talked a little less. Nor is the Church the validator of your own particular issues. When you show respect for your fellow Catholics and for Catholic teaching instead of cherry picking what fits your personal ideology then you can preach till then I suggest you study.

From the Intruction:
17. In this full presentation of Christianity, it is proper to emphasize those essential aspects which the “theologies of liberation” especially tend to misunderstand or to eliminate, namely: God and true man; the sovereignty of grace; and the true nature of the means of salvation, especially of the Church and the sacraments. One should also keep in mind the true meaning of ethics in which the distinction between good and evil is not relativized, the real meaning of sin, the necessity for conversion, and the universality of the law of fraternal love. One needs to be on guard against the politicization of existence which, misunderstanding the entire meaning of the Kingdom of God and the transcendence of the person, begins to sacralize politics and betray the religion of the people in favor of the projects of the revolution.

 

[Leon_Miguel]

CollegeCatholic:

how can we act like capital punishment isn’t a great evil? The state is also in charge of abortion yet why do we fight that?

It is probably worth looking at the relative sizes of the two issues - for every person executed in the US in the last three decades there have been 40,000 abortions which would suggest that it is a evil of much greater scale.

Of course all evils are to be fought, but you must also look at the chance of success - it is probably unlikely that you as an individual can save a person from execution but if that same effort is applied to saving a child in the third world you are almost certain to save a life. Or in the US you probably have a fair chance of saving an unborn baby by supporting counselling and assistance centres.

I am not trying to sound too utilitarian but just pointing out that some issues are much bigger than others.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Leon Miguel:

It is probably worth looking at the relative sizes of the two issues - for every person executed in the US in the last three decades there have been 40,000 abortions which would suggest that it is a evil of much greater scale.

Of course all evils are to be fought, but you must also look at the chance of success - it is probably unlikely that you as an individual can save a person from execution but if that same effort is applied to saving a child in the third world you are almost certain to save a life. Or in the US you probably have a fair chance of saving an unborn baby by supporting counselling and assistance centres.

I am not trying to sound too utilitarian but just pointing out that some issues are much bigger than others.

Some Catholics remind me of the guy who tried to start a new baseball league. He described his discussions with the current league owners: “When you talk business, they want to talk the Good of Baseball. When you talk the Good of Baseball, they want to talk business.”

When we talk about social issues and what the Church can do (like how about we expand Catholic schools in poor areas and give poor kids a good education?) they want to talk about sin.

When we talk about sin (like how about telling pro-abortion politicians they can’t vote for abortion bills on Saturday and take communion on Sunday?) they want to talk social issues.

 

[oldfogey]

Get a job, raise a family, come back here in 20 years.

 

[vern_humphrey]

oldfogey:

Get a job, raise a family, come back here in 20 years.

Good answer. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif