The End of the Consumer Church in America

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The death penalty lets talk about ABORTION instead!!! lets get rid of that first. No I don’t like the death penalty at all but how would you feel if your only child was molested and then killed I bet the thought of an electric chair would feel good at that time. I agree forgiveness is living like Jesus and I hope if I ever end up in a situation where a loved one was murdered I would have the forgivness and mercy Jesus has and I pray on that. I am sorry for getting angry but narrow mindness drives me insane especially from youth. So you have great ideas I totally agree but some are insulting. I think we need to go back to pre Vatican Counsel II. I think we as Catholics myself so included need to take up a cross and show Jesus how much we love him we have so many starving children that could use an education instead of turning into criminals and drug users. think of how many minds could been used in the glory of God if someone would give them an education. the death penalty would be less a concern if we help people in the ghetto. As you all can tell i am not a College grad from my spelling. But I think some of the most amazing people were not College grads. Life is a college of grand perportions. Oh and yes I am VERY conservative in thought and my beliefs. I think it is necessary to bring back the old traditions to the Mass and get half the people of the Alter. Another thing that really insanes me is the dancers in church. Peganising the Mass is something that really matters not what car is in the parking lot. SO what if someone wants a Mercedes are you willing to give up your college or whatever and drive in a Fred Flinstone car?? Lets fight something that matters like the Peganisation in the Church. the way the Eucharist is treated with disregard holding it, no we need not to hold it. I remember when one fell on the floor and the minister just picked up off the floor and placed it under the vessle with his dirty finger… These are the issues that ANGER ME not what car is in the parking lot!!! How about talking in church when we are in the presence of Jesus How about changing the laungauge like calling a confessional something else other than what it is annointing ofthe sick no LAST RIGHTS how about usingthe word SIN!!! more often I remember a bible a LIBERAL preist was using changing the language to suit both genders. How about Bishops that don’t have the balls to stand up for what is right and commiting sin BY SILENCE!!! When like scarey Kerry who is for baby killing, claiming he is Catholic which he is NOT!!! be excomunicated IN PUBLIC!!! by the Bishops, instead they sit there in SILENCE!!! and nothing is DONE!! And he has communion BLASTPHEMY!!! IT IS A MORTAL!!! SIN!!! TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE THAT AGREES WITH ABORTION!! or any other ANTICATHOLIC IDEA!!!
 
CollegeCatholic,

I have read your arguments and posts and I am proud brother. It is hard to retain that level of passion and patience amongst people who label you and shrug you off as being a “liberal.” I’m sure Saint Francis would have been called that and more in his day. Some Catholics equate economic conservatism with traditional moral teachings and that is a tragedy. Can I not be pro-life, anti-contraception, faithful to the Church and Magisterium, AND against extreme wealth without charity? Can I not be a follower of Saint Francis and a follower of Saint Thomas Aquinas? Some have made jabs at us for being young. Is age a litmus test for living the Gospel in its entirety? I’ve often read on these forums about the passion and orthodoxy of the younger priests and generations. “Thats fine but you college “kids” better not try to challenge me! Don’t try to burst my comfort bubble or I’ll start calling you a liberal, a leftist or maybe I’ll even try to get you blacklisted as a commie. I’d rather hurt your feelings by saying your a kid and a commie than feel a little guilt about me having a really nice car or summer home.” Do you think a summer home and all the great family time spent there means anything to families who aren’t sure they are going to make it through tomorrow? Pray that we don’t EVER lose our passion or build up comfort bubbles CollegeCatholic. And yes, I AM considering joining the Capuchins. -Chris
 
I don’t think St. Francis would have been so arrogant. College Catholic offended many people on the forum with little grounds for doing so and was asking for it.
 
Some Catholics equate economic conservatism with traditional moral teachings and that is a tragedy.
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First of all, politics and economics are not linear in terms of philosophies, as most college professors would have you believe. It is simplistic to believe we have liberal on the left, conservative on the right and points in between.

Secondly, it is a tragedy when the opposite is true… that a good number of Catholics believe that Christ’s charge to take care of the poor equates to government programs. Christ never said “have your governments take care of the poor.” YOU AND I are to take care of the poor. We don’t need the government to get that job done.

By the way, in the interest of full disclosure, I have already posted to this thread as “MommyThink”. I said I was through with this thread, but I can’t help myself! Economics is one of my favorite subjects. I had trouble with my login and had to do a new one.
 
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VonMrs:
Christ never said “have your governments take care of the poor.” YOU AND I are to take care of the poor. We don’t need the government to get that job done.
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Who’s the government?

The Gettysburg Address refers to “Government of the people, by the people, for the people,” right? In the US, at least, the government is the people.

Or maybe Lincoln was wrong?
 
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CollegeCatholic:
I must live in a microcosm then… topics of social justice, in all of the parishes that I have attended all of the US, have been very rare. A little bit more common are nice sentimental messages of giving $5 for a charitable organization but messages getting at the heart of poverty, materialism, consumerism, and such are VERY rare. While the USCCB has some cool stuff to say, I seldomn see this trickle down to the individual parishes, the heart of the Church in the US.
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My experience is much different. I find unending talk about social welfare and related things and no discussion of personal holiness and keeping the commmandments. I am not saying these issues are unrelated. My objection is that most often the message seems to be liberal politics equals doing the Lord’s will and personal sin is old school and has been replaced by corporate sin and the “real” sin today is to forget “social justice”, however that is defined, while neglecting the proper formation of conscience and ongoing personal conversion.
You just summarized the average Catholic, was this an attack on my argument? I guess I’m a little confused although the context may have been lost since I’ve been gone a few days… With that said, how many of the Saints took a vow of poverty? A whole stinkin’ lot…
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My point is that many times I hear that the “real” message of the Gospel is to simply focus exclusively on things, governmental or not, that relate to economic issues while rejecting the rest of the Gospel message.
If social justice was the lone message, a whole lot of people would have left the Church because the leadership would have been holding accountable the average Catholic in the US because of our terrible hording of goods at the expense of our own poor and the poor of the world.
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People have left because of the emphasis on corporate sin and the minimizing of truth.
Loving the neighbor as oneself goes WAY beyond nice feelings and includes not just concern for salvation but concern for the WHOLE person including their material needs.
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I am not saying we have no obligation to do works of charity, we do. I am saying that too often the focus is exclusively on material issues while rejecting the truth that salvation is paramount.
So social injustice IS the Faith? I’m confused how my beliefs are in contradiction with the Fatih?
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I was referring to your position on capital punishment. I too am aganist it, but the opposite position is no sin and the Church says so.

Social justice, as defined by the Church, is true. Social justice as commonly defined by many is not truth but liberal polictics with a patina of religion.
 
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CollegeCatholic:
While the USCCB has some cool stuff to say, I seldomn see this trickle down to the individual parishes, the heart of the Church in the US.
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Thank God that the parish and NOT the USCCB is the heart of the Church in the US.
Let’s keep it that way! :gopray:
 
Penny Plain:
Who’s the government?

The Gettysburg Address refers to “Government of the people, by the people, for the people,” right? In the US, at least, the government is the people.

Or maybe Lincoln was wrong?
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I think you’d have a really hard time arguing that our founding fathers or even Lincoln would recognize our current federal government as being anything close to what they intended. The federal government is not a government of the people. Average citizens have almost no ability to exert any influence on the federal government.
 
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Sherlock:
Speaking of absurd reactions, you’ve delivered what I’ve come to expect from you. You never disappoint…

No one is disputing that American Catholics need to be concerned for the poor, and sometimes act selfishly. The objection to CollegeCatholic has to do with his self-righteous tone (most annoying in college kids who aren’t paying their own way in life) and his flawed views of other issues. Those are the nerve-touchers, not the orthodox Catholic teaching that we need to share our wealth and give to the poor.
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This leads me to one of the more amusing threads I’ve been in lately. I took the position that “we are morally bount to maximize our God-given talents.” Then I explained WHY – if someone thinks we should pay more taxes, then that someone should pay more. If he says, “But I don’t make all that money,” the reponse is, “Why not? You’re not maximizing your God-given talents!”

If he says we should raise the minimum wage, I say, “What do you pay your employees?” And if he says, “Well, I don’t have a business,” the reponse is, “Why not? You’re not maximizing your God-given talents!”

You should see the holier-than-thou crew tie themselves in knots over that issue.

How dare anyone suggest they have an obligation to do what they want to force others to do! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
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VonMrs:
We don’t need the government to get that job done.
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You are forgetting that the government created the current economic policies.
 
vern humphrey:
This leads me to one of the more amusing threads I’ve been in lately. I took the position that “we are morally bound to maximize our God-given talents.” Then I explained WHY – if someone thinks we should pay more taxes, then that someone should pay more. If he says, “But I don’t make all that money,” the response is, “Why not? You’re not maximizing your God-given talents!”
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Usury is not a God-given talent. Speculation and market control is not a God-given talent. False advertising and peddling junk is not a God-given talent. Working for a morally bankrupt corporation that will just as soon as fire you as look at you, is not a God-given talent. Usury, speculation, market control, false advertising, peddling junk, and the corporate degrading of the human person to a machine - are all vices.

From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:
Hence, producers and consumers are robbed by clever men, who manipulate the markets in their own interests, produce nothing, perform no useful social service, and are parasites on commerce… The hope of becoming rich quickly and without the drudgery of labour distracts a man from pursuing the path of honest work. The speculator, even if he succeeds, produces nothing; he reaps the fruit of the toil of others, he is a parasite
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who lives by preying on the community.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14211a.htm

Yes, I agree completely with you, Vern, you are right in demanding people actually use their God-given talents and work for a living.
vern humphrey:
If he says we should raise the minimum wage, I say, “What do you pay your employees?”
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I agree there should not be minimum wages in the perfect system.
vern humphrey:
And if he says, “Well, I don’t have a business,” the response is, “Why not? You’re not maximizing your God-given talents!”
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I agree, the goal of most people should be to own their own business and work for themselves.
vern humphrey:
How dare
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anyone suggest they have an obligation to do what they want to force others to do!

This is where I disagree. There is a moral obligation to pay a just wage to your workers. Not paying a just wage is one of the crimes that "cries out to the avenging anger of heaven". Pope Leo held that a wage must be sufficient to “support the wage earner in reasonable and frugal comfort” and that “if through necessity or fear of a worse evil, the workman accepts harder conditions because an employer or contractor will give him no better, he is the victim of force and injustice”.
 
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Hildebrand:
This is where I disagree. There is a moral obligation to pay a just wage to your workers. Not paying a just wage is one of the crimes that "cries out to the avenging anger of heaven". Pope Leo held that a wage must be sufficient to “support the wage earner in reasonable and frugal comfort” and that “if through necessity or fear of a worse evil, the workman accepts harder conditions because an employer or contractor will give him no better, he is the victim of force and injustice”.
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And therefore those who run around saying other people should pay their workers more have a moral obligation to start their own businesses, hire those workers and pay them a fair wage.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
vern humphrey:
And therefore those who run around saying other people should pay their workers more have a moral obligation to start their own businesses, hire those workers and pay them a fair wage.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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You are being smart with me. :tiphat:

Are you saying you disagree with Pope Leo XIII? Pope Leo XIII was the head of a large organization, which employed many, many people. Now I’m being smart. 😉
 
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Hildebrand:
Usury is not a God-given talent. Speculation and market control is not a God-given talent. False advertising and peddling junk is not a God-given talent. Working for a morally bankrupt corporation that will just as soon as fire you as look at you, is not a God-given talent. Usury, speculation, market control, false advertising, peddling junk, and the corporate degrading of the human person to a machine - are all vices.

From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14211a.htm

Yes, I agree completely with you, Vern, you are right in demanding people actually use their God-given talents and work for a living.

I agree there should not be minimum wages in the perfect system.

I agree, the goal of most people should be to own their own business and work for themselves.

This is where I disagree. There is a moral obligation to pay a just wage to your workers. Not paying a just wage is one of the crimes that "cries out to the avenging anger of heaven". Pope Leo held that a wage must be sufficient to “support the wage earner in reasonable and frugal comfort” and that “if through necessity or fear of a worse evil, the workman accepts harder conditions because an employer or contractor will give him no better, he is the victim of force and injustice”.
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Uh-oh! …Oh no, Hildebrand, now you did it! Prepare for incoming fire! The self-righteous self-employed, no taxes crowd is going to beat up on you now…They never talk about employers paying a “living wage” …that equates to “bad economics” and claims that you “just don’t know how economics works!”

I agree with you. Paying a “living wage” is key to following Christ, and actually what they don’t realize, is that when you follow Christ …fruitful blessings abound. They really should try it, they’d like it!

Thanks for posting Hildebrand, please return soon. 👍
 
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VonMrs:
What makes you think I’m forgetting that?
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I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to believe the current US capitalistic system is either morally good or the only workable system.

I am saying the reason why we have a capitalistic economy is because of government policies that protect and promote many of the dogmas of capitalism.
 
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Hildebrand:
I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to believe the current US capitalistic system is either morally good or the only workable system.
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And the alternative is?
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Hildebrand:
I am saying the reason why we have a capitalistic economy is because of government policies that protect and promote many of the dogmas of capitalism.
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And those are?
 
Nobody lives in a vacuum. What WE do effects the lives of others. Our goal as Christians is not to be rich and retire at age 50, but to be generous with one another. If employers are not taking care of their hard working employees so that they have enough money to provide for a family, then something is TERRIBLY wrong with the current system.

The reason why I under-lined hard working is because it is a two-way street. Just as employers are morally bound to “support the wage earner”, the worker is morally bound to give an honest day’s work.
 
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