The Essentials of CARM

[MarcoPolo]

I asked CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) the meaning of a note on their testimonials page reading: “(Note: CARM recognizes that many Catholics are Christian)”. In response I was given a link to their article on Catholics which could be summarized in its concluding paragraphs with “If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture.”

In other words, a Catholic is a Christian only if he does not follow the Church, i.e. a Catholic in name only. And nowhere in the article was addressed any Scripture cited by the Church about salvation.

What especially caught my eye in the article was CARM’s own doctrine called the 4 “essential doctrines” as determined apparently by CARM. These are the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, the Resurrection, and the gospel.

This reminded me of the sola scriptura position that begs the question, where in the Bible are the books of the Bible listed?

So with my curiosity peaked, has anyone ever heard a Protestant (CARM or otherwise) attempt to assert how the essentials of faith are determined and who has the authority to determine them? That’s something I’d like to read.

 

[mikeledes]

I asked CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) the meaning of a note on their testimonials page reading: “(Note: CARM recognizes that many Catholics are Christian)”. In response I was given a link to their article on Catholics which could be summarized in its concluding paragraphs with “If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture.”

In other words, a Catholic is a Christian only if he does not follow the Church, i.e. a Catholic in name only. And nowhere in the article was addressed any Scripture cited by the Church about salvation.

What especially caught my eye in the article was CARM’s own doctrine called the 4 “essential doctrines” as determined apparently by CARM. These are the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, the Resurrection, and the gospel.

This reminded me of the sola scriptura position that begs the question, where in the Bible are the books of the Bible listed?

So with my curiosity peaked, has anyone ever heard a Protestant (CARM or otherwise) attempt to assert how the essentials of faith are determined and who has the authority to determine them? That’s something I’d like to read.

Yes! A poster on this thread named Sola Scriptura - obviously Protestant - attemptd to explain the essentials and how they were determined. It was in a thread on Sola Scriptura. I would have to do a search on order to find it for you.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Does this help
“What is Christianity and what do Christians believe?”

Answer: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says, “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

In a nutshell, that is the belief of Christianity. Christianity is unique among all other faiths, because Christianity is more about a relationship, rather than religious practice. Instead of adhering to a list of “dos and don’ts,” the goal of a Christian is to cultivate a close walk with God the Father. That relationship is made possible because of the work of Jesus Christ, and the ministry in the life of the Christian by the Holy Spirit.

Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, and that its teaching is the final authority (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Christians believe in one God that exists in three persons, the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

Christians believe that mankind was created specifically to have a relationship with God, but that sin separates all men from God (Romans 5:12, Romans 3:23). Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ walked this earth, fully God, and yet fully man (Philippians 2:6-11), and died on the cross. Christians believe that after His death on the cross, Christ was buried, He rose again, and now lives at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for the believers forever (Hebrews 7:25). Christianity proclaims that Jesus’ death on the cross was sufficient to completely pay the sin debt owed by all men and this is what restores the broken relationship between God and man (Hebrews 9:11-14, Hebrews 10:10, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8).

In order to be saved, one must simply place his faith entirely in the finished work of Christ on the cross. If someone believes that Christ died in his own place and paid the price of his own sins, and rose again, then that person is saved. There is nothing that anyone can do to earn salvation. Nobody can be “good enough” to please God on his or her own, because all of us are sinners (Isaiah 64:6-7, Isaiah 53:6). Secondly, there is nothing more to be done, because Christ has done all the work! When He was on the cross, Jesus said, “It is finished” (John 19:30).

Just as there is nothing one can do to earn salvation, once someone has placed his/her trust in the work of Christ on the cross, there is nothing anyone can do to lose his/her salvation either. Remember, the work was done and completed by Christ! Nothing about salvation is dependent upon the one who receives it! John 10:27-29 states “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.”

Some may think, “This is great–once I am saved, I can do just as I please, and not lose my salvation!” But salvation is not about being free to do as one pleases. Salvation is becoming free from having to serve the old sin nature, and being free to pursue a right relationship with God. As long as believers live on this earth in their sinful bodies, there will be a constant struggle with giving in to sin. Living in sin hinders the relationship God seeks to have with mankind, and as long as one lives in sin as a believer, he will not enjoy the relationship God intended to have with him. However, Christians can have victory over the struggle with sin by studying and applying God’s Word (the Bible) in their lives, and being controlled by the Holy Spirit–that is, submitting to the Spirit’s influence and leading in everyday circumstances, and through the Spirit obeying God’s Word.

So, while many religious systems require that a person do certain things or not do certain things, Christianity is about having a relationship with God. Christianity is about believing that Christ died on the cross as payment for your own sin, and rose again. Your sin debt is paid and you can have fellowship with God. You can have victory over your sin nature and walk in fellowship and obedience with God. That is true biblical Christianity.

 

[Hellisreal]

Dont worry about CARM, and what they think. I just glanced at that site out of curiousity and even registered on their forum to post there, but after looking at it, there is no way I will post there.
I cant believe they think that is a Christian site after glancing at the “RCC” forum.

 

[Cardinalsong]

I asked CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) the meaning of a note on their testimonials page reading: “(Note: CARM recognizes that many Catholics are Christian)”. In response I was given a link to their article on Catholics which could be summarized in its concluding paragraphs with “If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture.”

In other words, a Catholic is a Christian only if he does not follow the Church, i.e. a Catholic in name only. And nowhere in the article was addressed any Scripture cited by the Church about salvation.

What especially caught my eye in the article was CARM’s own doctrine called the 4 “essential doctrines” as determined apparently by CARM. These are the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, the Resurrection, and the gospel.

This reminded me of the sola scriptura position that begs the question, where in the Bible are the books of the Bible listed?

So with my curiosity peaked, has anyone ever heard a Protestant (CARM or otherwise) attempt to assert how the essentials of faith are determined and who has the authority to determine them? That’s something I’d like to read.

It amazes me how they, CARM, can determine who is saved just by saying “I believe what the Catholic Church teaches.”

 

[mikeledes]

So Allforhim, I guess Arminians, Methodists, Holiness Churches, Pentecostals are not genuinely Christian. Your “essentials of Christianity” are not universally accepted by Protestants.

Since you are a OSAS believer, I would like to see your responses to those verses that seem to contradict this doctrine. I would also like to see your response to Galatians 6:6-9, Romans 2:5-8, etc. Of course, that would have to be in another thread.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cardinalsong]

Or, who is NOT saved

 

[Hellisreal]

Allforhim’s statement says fully God and fully man, no problem there-

but no mention of the Trinity?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes! A poster on this thread named Sola Scriptura - obviously Protestant - attemptd to explain the essentials and how they were determined. It was in a thread on Sola Scriptura. I would have to do a search on order to find it for you.

God Bless,
Michael

The thread was entitled, “Not By Scripture Alone”, I think.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[MarcoPolo]

Does this help

Sorry, no…I’m not seeing in there the answer to “how the essentials of faith are determined and who has the authority to determine them?” What does that mean the Bible is the final authority? Do you not see the predicament of interpretation this poses? The 2 Peter 1:20-21 citation you made emphasizes the predicament. That’s why I was curious to hear a response either by CARM or other Protestant. Thank you for trying to help anyway. If you’re interested in a lively thread, I suggest you take mikeledes advice and post the Scripture from your post that you say supports the Bible as final authority or the you-can’t-lose-your-salvation idea.

It amazes me how they, CARM, can determine who is saved just by saying “I believe what the Catholic Church teaches.”

Yup, they are amazing.

The thread was entitled, “Not By Scripture Alone”, I think.

Was it this thread, Randy, that you began? I did a quick search of each page of the thread for “essential” and came up empty.

Dont worry about CARM, and what they think.

I see what you mean, but I was taking the apologetic approach Karl Keating recommended on pages 321-322 of Catholicism & Fundamentalism: “…you need to see just what fundamentalists say about the Church–and in their own words.”

 

[Bishopite]

I asked CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) the meaning of a note on their testimonials page reading: “(Note: CARM recognizes that many Catholics are Christian)”. In response I was given a link to their article on Catholics which could be summarized in its concluding paragraphs with “If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture.”

In other words, a Catholic is a Christian only if he does not follow the Church, i.e. a Catholic in name only. And nowhere in the article was addressed any Scripture cited by the Church about salvation.

What especially caught my eye in the article was CARM’s own doctrine called the 4 “essential doctrines” as determined apparently by CARM. These are the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, the Resurrection, and the gospel.

This reminded me of the sola scriptura position that begs the question, where in the Bible are the books of the Bible listed?

So with my curiosity peaked, has anyone ever heard a Protestant (CARM or otherwise) attempt to assert how the essentials of faith are determined and who has the authority to determine them? That’s something I’d like to read.

CARM’s theology is reformation theology, they claim Augustine was “reformed” in his theology, yet Augustine also believed in purgatory among other Catholic teachings, for he was a Catholic Bishop.
CARM has a link to the Canons of the council of Orange 529 A.D. which is funny since it was a council of “Catholic” Bishops dealing with the issue of pelagianism. CARM insists that this council taught reformed theology which they affirm as being the truth of the Christian faith. However, the council of Orange contradicted what CARM believes in these two statements…

Council of Orange 529 A.D.

"CONCLUSION.

And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him."

The underlined portion is where CARM says is proof of their teaching on “total depravity” that man’s will can ONLY do ALL bad and man’s choice is always bad. Yet, is that what it really says? Read it again. It says “that no one can either love God as he ought” means that man’s will was weakened NOT totally depraved, and even though man on his own couldn’t seek God doesn’t mean he was totally deprived of All grace.
Catholicism teaches that God gives everyone sufficient grace to seek Him, but gives efficacious grace to the elect.

Another portion of the council of Orange that CARM says affirms their belief of monergism (that God does everything and we can’t even cooperate as coworkers or colaborers) as opposed to the Catholic position of synergism (which says we can and must cooperate with God’s grace).
Here is what the council of Orange again says which contradicts CARM’s theology…

“According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul.”

The “catholic faith” isn’t just catholic meaning all Christians. Think about it, what and was the “church” for the first 1000 years? The Catholic church, so we can draw a rational and reasonable conclusion that “catholic” IS the Roman Catholic church.

Next, read where it says** “ability and responsibility, if the desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ”**

To labor faithfully, to perform with aid and cooperation of Christ" is NOT monergistic language but IS synergistic language; that we cooperate with God’s grace.

The council of Orange was:

a council of Catholic Bishops of the Catholic church (since history proves that there was NO other church in the sixth century save the Catholic church)​

a council that taught the darkening of the will NOT total depravity​

a council that taught synergism NOT monergism.​

 

[Bishopite]

I see what you mean, but I was taking the apologetic approach Karl Keating recommended on pages 321-322 of Catholicism & Fundamentalism: “…you need to see just what fundamentalists say about the Church–and in their own words.”

The CARM group are NOT fundamentalists, in fact they are opposed to fundamentalist teaching. CARM is reformed in their theology, from John Calvin and some other reformers. Many but not all reformed Christians accept and practice padeobaptism, (infant baptism), two sacraments, (baptism and communion) and even recite the Apostles and Nicean creeds in their services, at which something fundamentalists would scoff.
So, if you talk to CARM you need to know what the believe and don’t speak to them as fundamentalists or you accuse them of something that isn’t part of their theology and their theology is much more advanced than fundamentalism yet full of half-truths and outright errors.

Here is one of the errors I found on their site…

"Monergism
The teaching that God alone is the one who saves. It is opposed to synergism which teaches that God and man work together in salvation. Cults are synergistic. Christianity is monergistic."

Here is the real truth from scripture…
Monergism isn’t Scriptural, cooperating with God’s grace is.

"The Bible is a synergist book because in the most literal sense possible it uses synergistic language. One cannot denounce the language of synergism without denouncing the language of the Bible. For example, in Mark 16:20 we read: “And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with [sunergountos] them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen.” Here we have a declaration that God worked with the apostles in their ministry of preaching. This of itself shows that the language of men cooperating with God cannot be considered unbiblical. (The Salvation Controversy, Jimmy Akin page 90)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

This “Gospel” as defined by carm is a pretty funny issue and I have dealt with it multiple times at carm. Here are some neat tricks I use when it comes up:

When they say Catholics arent Christian because they dont believe in the “Gospel” all you have to do is ask them “What is the Gospel? Catholics believe the Gospel is the life and teachings of Jesus. This includes the authority of the Church He established”…of course they dont like this definition and instead they toss out 1 Cor 15:1-4:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. [5 [/COLOR]And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve]…there are a couple of problems here though.
-One question that gets them spinning is “But that passage doesnt say Jesus is God, does that mean a person can technically believe the ‘gospel’ and not have to believe this?” and at that point you have won because they cant define the Gospel in such narrow terms. The fact is the Gospel includes a Church and obedience to those in authority.
-Second problem with that passage, it says salvation “IF” you hold to what was preached “ULESS you have believed in vain”…yet Carm doesnt believe a Christian can lose salvation. This verse proves beyond a doubt that salvation is a process and can be lost.
-Third problem with that verse it says “I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received” notice this doesnt say ALL of what I received…this means here he is pointing out some of the big stuff BUT NOT defining the whole Gospel here.
-Fourth problem, they leave off verse 5 which talks about the Apostles with Peter (Cephas) leading the pack, this is a clear indication of the authority of the Apostles/Church.

Another cool trick to pull out when they say Catholics are not Christians is to simply point out other mainstream Protestants who consider Catholics to be Christian and ask carm which protestant are we to believe and which has the authority to make such a judgment. And the best I have found is when you go to the web page that hosts Carm’s scripture passages (ie the site that pops up when you click on a passage reference) and here is what it says ( biblegateway.com ):
Are the Deuterocanonical books (Apocrypha) included in the Bible Gateway?

The Deuterocanonical books (Apocrypha)–recognized as canon by some Christians and disregarded by others–is included in certain Bibles on the Bible Gateway,** such as the Latin Vulgate.**
biblegateway.com/help/faq/index.php#16
Carm has two options here, either claim there is a long lost Italian Lutheran group who uses the Latin Vulgate…OR admit that that even Carm’s Bible program says Catholics are Christian.

I have noticed and also made it clear over there that despite the fact the “R” in caRm stands for “research” that I have a hard time seeing evidence of real research on their web page.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Allforhim’s statement says fully God and fully man, no problem there-

but no mention of the Trinity?

Here it is You probably didnt notice because they didnt write the word trinity–but that is what they mean.

Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, and that its teaching is the final authority (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21).

Christians believe in one God that exists in three persons, the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

 

[jemfinch]

Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, and that its teaching is the final authority (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21).

So there weren’t any Christians until the sixteenth century? A little late for a doctrinal necessity, wouldn’t you say?

Jeremy

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So there weren’t any Christians until the sixteenth century? A little late for a doctrinal necessity, wouldn’t you say?

Jeremy

I thought the early christians did believe in all that I posted Nothing new under the sun right?

OOPs sorry I just noticed final authority–I forgot the CC doesnt teach that.

 

[Cat]

ALLFORHIM, the two passages of Scripture that you cited (II Tim 3:16 and II Peter 1: 20-21) don’t say that Scripture is the “Final Authority.”

Even if they did, they would be referring to the Old Testament, not the New Testament which hadn’t been written yet.

II Tim 3: 16 says that all Scripture (Old Testament) is inspired by God–that doesn’t say “Final Authority.”

It says that all Scripture (Old Testament) is profitable (not FINAL or the Sole Authority) for teaching, reproof, correction, for training in righteousness.

Where do you get out of this that the Scripture is the Final Authority? especially the New Testament?

As for II Peter 1: 20-21, I’m even more confused. This passage says that “no prophecy of Scripture (Old Testament) is a matter of of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Again this makes it clear that the Scriptures (Old Testament) came from God, not men. But it doesn’t say that they are the Final Authority.

If the Scriptures (the Old Testament) are the "Final Authority, then who was Jesus? Why did the apostles write new books/letters if the Old Testament was “the Final Authority.” Why didn’t they just use the Old Testament for all their teachings? Do you think it’s possible that the New Testament is not inspired by God at all, but is merely a “commentary” on the Old Testament?

I respectfully suggest that you (and many others) are reading into these passages something that isn’t there.

(BTW, I used the New American Standard Bible, the “gold standard” for many Protestants, above.)

 

[MarcoPolo]

The CARM group are NOT fundamentalists, in fact they are opposed to fundamentalist teaching.

Yeah, but the principle I was using is the same: know the opinions of others in their own words. By the way, thanks for your posts here, I found them both quite informative and interesting.

 

[cecilia97]

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. [5 [/COLOR]And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve]…there are a couple of problems here though.
…
-Second problem with that passage, it says salvation “IF” you hold to what was preached “ULESS you have believed in vain”…yet Carm doesnt believe a Christian can lose salvation. This verse proves beyond a doubt that salvation is a process and can be lost.

:clapping:

CARM is the Gospel According to Matt Slick, IMO.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Yeah, but the principle I was using is the same: know the opinions of others in their own words. By the way, thanks for your posts here, I found them both quite informative and interesting.

Hi,
Did you only read the article they gave you that had to do with catholics? Did you read their article on the essentials of Christianity? I went in and read them and they dont seem like anything the CC would disagree with.