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Nicene
Guest
Like I said. You worship the the bible. The bible isn’t God.
Jn 5:9: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
Even Christ taught differently because they didn’t recognize the living God. And Jesus is the final authority. Point blank. You are practicing no different than those Jesus admonished.
It doesn’t get much clearer.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Nicene
Guest
By the way, one of the people who has copied some of my stuff personally, in format and language, (and altered it, presenting it as original) is right in this very thread. Can you guess who it is?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Nicene
Guest
Lets see if you get this one, since scripture is your final authority.
What is sacred scripture?
What can you tell me about this:
Lk 1:68: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people,
69: and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,
70: as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
71: that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us;
72: to perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant,
73: the oath which he swore to our father Abraham,
74: to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear,
75: in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life.
76: And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
77: to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,
78: through the tender mercy of our God, when the day shall dawn upon us from on high
79: to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”
Tell me how sacred scripture is inspired. How do you know?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
What is sacred scripture?
What can you tell me about this:
Lk 1:68: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people,
69: and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,
70: as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
71: that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us;
72: to perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant,
73: the oath which he swore to our father Abraham,
74: to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear,
75: in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life.
76: And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
77: to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,
78: through the tender mercy of our God, when the day shall dawn upon us from on high
79: to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”
Tell me how sacred scripture is inspired. How do you know?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Atemi
Guest
Sorry, your church also says that God authored the Scriptures.
I guess we all “worship the bible” then.
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Nicene
Guest
Here is one more, which you may find interesting.
If you truly believe in bible alone. You will never type or speak another word of the bible, just hand them out.
Tradition is primarily and foremost (but not limited to because of the active indwelling of the trinity) the proclamation of the gospel without adulteration. God speaking orally to his people, no exegesis, no cut up verses (as in fundamentalism). In the Mass, 2 readings and the gospel, just as Jesus presented them. The priest is the mouth of God, just as Moses, and God is using him like a paintbrush, to do His will, part of His body. And our replies? Thanks be to God. Glory to thee, O Lord. Praise to Thee Lord Jesus Christ.
The curtain has been torn, we have entered the sanctuary. He is speaking to you orally. Are you listening?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
If you truly believe in bible alone. You will never type or speak another word of the bible, just hand them out.
Tradition is primarily and foremost (but not limited to because of the active indwelling of the trinity) the proclamation of the gospel without adulteration. God speaking orally to his people, no exegesis, no cut up verses (as in fundamentalism). In the Mass, 2 readings and the gospel, just as Jesus presented them. The priest is the mouth of God, just as Moses, and God is using him like a paintbrush, to do His will, part of His body. And our replies? Thanks be to God. Glory to thee, O Lord. Praise to Thee Lord Jesus Christ.
The curtain has been torn, we have entered the sanctuary. He is speaking to you orally. Are you listening?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Nicene
Guest
That’s not in question is it now? You’re attempt to divert isn’t helping you.
No thanks, We’ll stick to worshiping God in truth and Spirit
Can’t answer the questions I see.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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ALLFORHIM
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Church_Militant
Guest
Maybe they were referring to the way that you used it in a mocking tone. I don’t know…and frankly don’t care much.
So you say… I didn’t see that and again, I don’t a whole lot care because whether anyone agrees with the truth doesn’t affect the truth. Disagree to your heart’s content…that’s on your own head, so long as you are courteous and respectful about it, I have no problems.
Odd that we come away with different views of the same experience.
For example:
That is from a CARM post to Catholics that the Mods there allowed. If someone referred to the liturgy or prayers of any other religion with that term, I feel very sure that it would be edited and they’d hear from the CAF staff about it.
Again:
Tell me that if I used this phrase for your own beliefs that you would not find it both discourteous and offensive.
What this indicates is someone who feels that anything goes in the course of his “witnessing”, whether it is Christlike or not. Is that charitable? I certainly don’t think so.
You tell me based on the 2 examples above. Neither would be allowed here at CAF if anyone had the common sense to report it.
.This is one reason that I no longer post at CARM.
The fact is that the only authoritative sources of Catholic teaching are the Catechism and the teaching documents out of the Vatican, all of which are readily available online.
To pull some prayer from somewhere and try to use it to allege error or worship of Mary (just for instance, since that seems to be one of their favorite allegations and methods of opening a thread over there.) instead of what the Church actually teaches is garbage. If I say something as a poster, I can be dead wrong, but if someone (even me) wants to know what the Catholic Church really says about any given topic, the honest person goes to the authoritative source. That doesn’t happen at CARM in the vast majority of their threads. In fact, most come away with some tripe about being an ex-Catholic and try to tell people that what they have stated is true when in fact it’s not at all. I’ve seen you do it here at CAF myself Atemi. You assert that Catholics believe things that you were supposedly told (as a practicing Catholic) and that is diametrically opposite of Catholic teaching and then you get bent outta shape when a Catholic who knows what he’s talking about (like me) tells you that you are either lying through your teeth, honestly mistaken, or were taught wrong/or misunderstood what you were taught.
Even when we show you specific documentation that you got it dead wrong.
It hardly works at all on CARM.
Best summed up with this perhaps…Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.
LOL.
If you’re respectful, so am I. If not, the gloves come off.
This is very significant.
. Don’t retaliate when people say unkind things about you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God wants you to do, and he will bless you for it."Well it seems you are at least familiar with the Biblical concept, and I have to admit that in general, your posts here have been much better than those on CARM, so thank you for that. :clapping: :clapping:
However, that is here at CAF…not CARM, and (sadly) you seem to be the exception and not the rule.
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Nicene
Guest
Nicene;2184862:
If one believes in doing exactly as the Pharisees did and following legalistically. Personally I pray to the living God and listen to Him.
It isn’t called Holy for nothing.
We use Christ. We go to the bridegroom.I use the bible as my final authority to teach me what God wants from me as a believer. That is not worshipping the bible that is just being smart and knowing where to go when I want spiritual truths.
For correction reproof etc we go to the bible:
2 Tim 3:16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
But for the living God:
1 Tim 3:15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Antogonism? Nope.Again, I worship God period. Do you have any knowledge of what non-catholics believe? You seem very antagonistic toward your brethren in Christ.
Compassion? Yep.
Knowledge of what non catholics believe? Yep, in depth. From personal experience and from their apologists. Then again which non catholic? You all don’t believe the same things.
You really have to understand that God, in indwelling in the believers, also acts through those believers to touch others. If that is less important than scripture, encountering the living God, I’ll eat my hat. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not in us for no reason. This supreme gift is not an addendum nor to be taken for granted.
We ARE a body of Christ (no I’m not being exclusive of non catholics). The living God indwelling in us. If one converts to christianity, was it you who converted them?
If you say yes there is a major problem.
Or God working through you with our cooperation?
Even atheists read the bible. There is something more at work, and He needs to be acknowledged
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Church_Militant
Guest
Nicene,
We need to stay on the topic of CARM and not get into a debate of Biblical inspiration or Sola Scriptura or you can bet Michael Francis will swing through here and lock the thread.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
We need to stay on the topic of CARM and not get into a debate of Biblical inspiration or Sola Scriptura or you can bet Michael Francis will swing through here and lock the thread.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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Nicene
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Atemi
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Of course! You are a Catholic.
Your perception would be different.
Yes. People are allowed to have their own opinions and voice them.
Imagine that.
Maybe do a search for “crackers and grape juice” or “Jesus is my buddy” here on CA.
It goes on and on.
I wonder how respectful posts are here about the Sinner’s Prayer.
I suppose if I called anything Catholic here “hocus pocus” I would be censored. I am curious if I started calling OSAS “hocus pocus” if the result would be the same.
Everytime I post anything against Catholicism there I “offend” someone.
The whole concept of a place like CARM is “offensive” to Catholics.
Great.
There is nothing inherently uncharitable at all with what is said above. They are people’s opinions. They do not attack anyone personally.
Yah.
This very same thread I was told I worship the Bible.
LOL.
No high road here. I am sorry.
I guess you would want oversite over all posts to make sure they only say what you personally feel the RCC teaches.
Sigh.
Actually it does, and that is your greatest complaint.
An atmosphere where people can sincerely hash out their opinions and criticisms, whether Catholic or not, is offensive to you.
Heavy editing or censorship sounds like what you would prefer. I wonder what bias that censorship would hold…
Yes.
I would like people to be able to express their opinions freely just like I would want to do the same.
Exactly.
…
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Nicene
Guest
That’s because CARM is offensive, and degrading.
However much worse has been used here than just hocus pocus. You’ll note it hasn’t been censored. Not true on CARM. If it is posted by a non catholic, it is accepted. If it is posted by a catholic, be prepared to be censored, deleted, banned, etc.
And I wasn’t trying to be offensive when I said that about worshipping the bible, but to open your eyes. Think logically. Did the creator of the universe need to give out bibles? Did Abraham have one? What about the people of Israel when they only had the pentateuch, even then the single books as they were being written.
The prophets? What about David when he wrote psalms? Did he have the same bible as Moses?
Was the bible their final authority? Or did they actively listen to God? Christ died on the Cross, not that he could give us a sacred scripture. He died on the cross that we could be Holy. He died on the cross so we would have our conscience cleaned. He died on the cross so we could talk to God and examine ourselves. He died on the cross so we could be united with him as one.
He died on the cross and gave us the Holy Spirit as our guide and counselor. He gave us the apostles, and reestablished his his hierarchy, something the Pharisees tried to do on their own. Before that they wandered about teaching each other.
The bible never has been the final authority. It is authoritative to be sure, but God never established it as the final authority. Man did that all by himself, repeating the mistakes of the past, eliminating the living God from the picture.
One wonders where we would be if Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Ezekial, Danial and all the other prophets as well as the Peter, John, Paul etc. hadn’t listened to the living God.
And Abraham, who had no bible at all…
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
After weeks of asking the CARM site owner this very question of: by what authority the essentials are made I got the following answer from him:
Mr. Matt Slick said: They are just in the bible.
CARMS dogmatic Essentials that are used to exclude catholicism form christianity and are solely developed by its owner; Matt Slick.
They are extrapolated from scripture by no other authority than his own as an individual. Sites like HisHolySpace.com have addopted them as a basis to be anti-catholic
The “Salvation by Grace” essential, especially, is used to exclude the fullness of the doctrine of Justification to sacraments the sacraments are superfulous works as well as any type of corporal or spiritual work of mercy for that matter. It is a partial truth used to argue the fullness of the complete truth as has been descerned over centuries by the Church.
It proclaims infallably that Salvation and Justification is accomplished and complete by Faith Alone and thus as an incomplete doctrine is misleading and used to negate and undermine the fullness that Justification is only begun with Faith.
Basically CARMs position on Justification is 180 degrees opposite from the Churchs. John Salza has a decent biblical exegisis on the subject here: scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
that is in line with the Church for anyone interested.
Matt Slicks forums are blatantly anti-Catholic. His moderators discriminate against catholics and ban them for defending the faith.
They even go so far as to use personal accounts to rudely antagonize Catholics and blaspheme the Catholic Faith and when it is defended they are banned with extreme bigotry and prejudice.
I have never experienced such anti-Catholic bigotry anywhere else than what is condoned on the CARM site. I have reported them to the Catholic Civil Liberties Union and pray their site is stopped from the wanton discrimination by whatever means it takes.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Then you acknowledge that what you are doing by mocking others first is evil?
After all, you state that I am repaying evil for evil. Thus, if your characterization is correct, then by repaying YOU for your unkind remarks, I am repaying your evil with mine.
:nope:
However, I think there is another verse that is more appropriate:
1 Peter 5:8-9
“Stay sober and alert. Your opponent the devil prowls like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, solid in your faith.”
Also, the following:
Galatians 2:11
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
This is very significant.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
This “Gospel” as defined by carm is a pretty funny issue and I have dealt with it multiple times at carm. Here are some neat tricks I use when it comes up:
When they say Catholics arent Christian because they dont believe in the “Gospel” all you have to do is ask them “What is the Gospel? Catholics believe the Gospel is the life and teachings of Jesus. This includes the authority of the Church He established”…of course they dont like this definition and instead they toss out 1 Cor 15:1-4:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. [5 [/COLOR]And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve]…there are a couple of problems here though.
-One question that gets them spinning is “But that passage doesnt say Jesus is God, does that mean a person can technically believe the ‘gospel’ and not have to believe this?” and at that point you have won because they cant define the Gospel in such narrow terms. The fact is the Gospel includes a Church and obedience to those in authority.
-Second problem with that passage, it says salvation “IF” you hold to what was preached “ULESS you have believed in vain”…yet Carm doesnt believe a Christian can lose salvation. This verse proves beyond a doubt that salvation is a process and can be lost.
-Third problem with that verse it says “I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received” notice this doesnt say ALL of what I received…this means here he is pointing out some of the big stuff BUT NOT defining the whole Gospel here.
-Fourth problem, they leave off verse 5 which talks about the Apostles with Peter (Cephas) leading the pack, this is a clear indication of the authority of the Apostles/Church.
Another cool trick to pull out when they say Catholics are not Christians is to simply point out other mainstream Protestants who consider Catholics to be Christian and ask carm which protestant are we to believe and which has the authority to make such a judgment. And the best I have found is when you go to the web page that hosts Carm’s scripture passages (ie the site that pops up when you click on a passage reference) and here is what it says ( biblegateway.com ):
Are the Deuterocanonical books (Apocrypha) included in the Bible Gateway?
The Deuterocanonical books (Apocrypha)–recognized as canon by some Christians and disregarded by others–is included in certain Bibles on the Bible Gateway,** such as the Latin Vulgate.**
biblegateway.com/help/faq/index.php#16
Carm has two options here, either claim there is a long lost Italian Lutheran group who uses the Latin Vulgate…OR admit that that even Carm’s Bible program says Catholics are Christian.
I have noticed and also made it clear over there that despite the fact the “R” in caRm stands for “research” that I have a hard time seeing evidence of real research on their web page.
Good to see you here.
I got so tired of being banned from CARM I have given up.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
A good cure for him is David Armstrong
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Church_Militant
Guest
at all with what is said above. They are people’s opinions. They do not attack anyone personally.
Yah.
This very same thread I was told I worship the Bible.
LOL.
No high road here. I am sorry.
I guess you would want oversite over all posts to make sure they only say what you personally feel the RCC teaches.
Sigh.
Actually it does, and that is your greatest complaint.
An atmosphere where people can sincerely hash out their opinions and criticisms, whether Catholic or not, is offensive to you.
Heavy editing or censorship sounds like what you would prefer. I wonder what bias that censorship would hold…
Yes.
I would like people to be able to express their opinions freely just like I would want to do the same.
Exactly.
…Hey…it’s no problem for me. I won’t support CARM in any way. You won’t find me posting there. So far as I am concerned, I tried.
I shared the truth with them honestly and without ego. They mocked and blew me off. According to the New Testament, I know what I’m supposed to do now.
They fall under this verse.
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you; going forth from thence, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony to them.
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Atemi
Guest
Oy.
I said nothing in my post that was mocking, or could even be construed as such.
I said:
“I have found that “common courtesy” is relative to the ideology of the person being addressed.”
To which you replied:
“If you’re respectful, so am I. If not, the gloves come off.”
The “you’re” above I did not take personally, but generally.
You basically said you are only respectful when others are respectful. Disciples of Christ usually don’t adopt that attitude if possible.
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