The Essentials of CARM

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Sometimes it feels like having a discussion with certain people is like this:

Catholic: The orange is clearly a fruit. It is round. And it is orange.

Protestant: No. It is not green at all.

Catholic: Okay. Right. But. Can we agree, based on the evidence, that it is round and orange, hence its name?

Protestant: No. You’ve got it all wrong. It’s clearly not purple.
 
Atemi said:
Nonsense.

You said it was not accurate that God authored Scripture.

You were wrong.

Get over it.

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God wrote the Ten commandments on tablets of stone if Moses didnt really carve them.

History shows us that the authors of the epistles and gospels were men. Those writtings on papyrus were then approved in the cannon by the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

In fact Mark, Luke and Paul didn’t even know Jesus when he lived but you accept their words as infallable because the church told you so.

Its that foundation that Jesus promised to be preserved from error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Pillar of Truth is a spoken word of God that you are immovable to hear.

To be steeped in the knowlege of honest history is to cease to be devisive.
 
KatholikosMercy said:
God wrote the Ten commandments on tablets of stone if Moses didnt really carve them.

History shows us that the authors of the epistles and gospels were men. Those writtings on papyrus were then approved in the cannon by the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

In fact Mark, Luke and Paul didn’t even know Jesus when he lived but you accept their words as infallable because the church told you so.

Its that foundation that Jesus promised to be preserved from error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Pillar of Truth is a spoken word of God that you are immovable to hear.

To be steeped in the knowlege of honest history is to cease to be devisive.
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Good point! I think we should briefly mention the other hotly contested books, some for centuries Hebrews, Revelation, The epistles of John, 2nd Peter.
 
Atemi said:
Good question…and the answer is no.

Nicea was only a repudiation of Arianism, not a first time definition of the Trinity. Nicea was convened against false doctrine, not so much to define a new dogma.

Not so with modern RC definitions.

PS - no council, from whatever church, can add or alter the essentials of salvation, no matter how much they believe they can.

But many more are coming. They must.

I often ask faithful Catholics how many new dogmas will be defined in the next 200 years or so. They don’t know. They cannot even say what the next one will be.

What Catholics must believe to be saved 500 years from now (if the Lord tarries) will not be what they must believe today.

This is extremely problematic and not in line with the Apostolic witness, IMV.

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Scripture sez: To whom much is given, much will be expected.

If Catholics in the future are blessed with greater doctrinal clarity than we have today, then of course they will be held accountable for it.

Makes sense, doesn’t it? :yup:

I’m sure this helps. :tiphat:
 
Nicea was only a repudiation of Arianism, not a first time definition of the Trinity. Nicea was convened against false doctrine, not so much to define a new dogma.
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Atemi,

Now this is brings up an interesting point. Is belief in the doctrine/dogma of the trinity necessary for salvation?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Atemi said:
Nicea was only a repudiation of Arianism, not a first time definition of the Trinity. Nicea was convened against false doctrine, not so much to define a new dogma.
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Actually Nicea was encouraged by Constantine in hopes of affirming Arianism of which he was a believer.

The Council however denounced Arianism as a heresy and affirmed Jesus was both fully man and fully God.

Constantine converted from Arianism on his death bed.

 
Nicene: “Is believing in the Holy Trinity necessary for our salvation?”

Christians are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked
to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: “I do.” “The faith of all Christians rests on
the Trinity.” [Catechism of the Catholic Church #232]

Good Fella:‘Baptism is necessary for our salvation. But without professing our belief in
the Holy Trinity, the sacrament of baptism is void.’

Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God…it is a free assent to the whole
truth that God has revealed…It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe
absolutely to what he says. [CCC#150]

Good Fella:‘The Word of God reveals to us the mystery of the Holy Trinity. By rejecting
the divine Word, we deny ourselves the gratuitous gift of faith which is necessary for our
salvation.’ We cannot be saved if we refuse to believe in what God says.’

For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent,
his “Beloved Son”, in whom the Father is “well pleased”…The Lord himself said to his disciples,
“Believe in God, believe also in me.” [CCC#151}

Good Fella:‘In order to be saved, we must obey Christ’s commands. We forfeit
our salvation by refusing to believe in God the Father, whom we must love with our entire
heart, mind, and soul.’

One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals
to men who Jesus is…For “no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit”… We believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God. [CCC#152]

Good Fella:‘The Holy Spirit necessarily exists, for he is the Advocate who enlightens
us in faith and communicates the graces necessary for our salvation. Jesus promised
to send us the Holy Spirit to help us get to Heaven.We cannot believe in Jesus, and thereby
be saved, if we refuse to believe in our Lord’s promise to send us the Paraclete.’

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary
for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God”] and to
attain to the fellowship of his sons”, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification,
nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end. ’ " [CCC#160]

For the true Christian belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary for his salvation.
For the unbaptized annonymous Christian, the existence of the Holy Trinity
is necessary for her salvation. :rolleyes:
 
Good_Fella said:
Nicene: “Is believing in the Holy Trinity necessary for our salvation?”

Christians are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked
to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: “I do.” “The faith of all Christians rests on
the Trinity.” [Catechism of the Catholic Church #232]

Good Fella:‘Baptism is necessary for our salvation. But without professing our belief in
the Holy Trinity, the sacrament of baptism is void.’

Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God…it is a free assent to the whole
truth that God has revealed…It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe
absolutely to what he says. [CCC#150]

Good Fella:‘The Word of God reveals to us the mystery of the Holy Trinity. By rejecting
the divine Word, we deny ourselves the gratuitous gift of faith which is necessary for our
salvation.’ We cannot be saved if we refuse to believe in what God says.’

For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent,
his “Beloved Son”, in whom the Father is “well pleased”…The Lord himself said to his disciples,
“Believe in God, believe also in me.” [CCC#151}

Good Fella:‘In order to be saved, we must obey Christ’s commands. We forfeit
our salvation by refusing to believe in God the Father, whom we must love with our entire
heart, mind, and soul.’

One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals
to men who Jesus is…For “no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit”… We believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God. [CCC#152]

Good Fella:‘The Holy Spirit necessarily exists, for he is the Advocate who enlightens
us in faith and communicates the graces necessary for our salvation. Jesus promised
to send us the Holy Spirit to help us get to Heaven.We cannot believe in Jesus, and thereby
be saved, if we refuse to believe in our Lord’s promise to send us the Paraclete.’

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary
for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God”] and to
attain to the fellowship of his sons”, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification,
nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end. ’ " [CCC#160]

For the true Christian belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary for his salvation.
For the unbaptized annonymous Christian, the existence of the Holy Trinity
is necessary for her salvation. :rolleyes:
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I’m catholic. 😉 I’m going somewhere with this, so indulge me. You’ll note the question was directed towards Atemi.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
For those interested, my conversation with CARM and Matt (whose email says Matt Slick, but he closes his emails with Matt Paulson) has about wrapped up. I found his rationale to exclude Catholics quite contradictory.

The way I understand him, the “essential” that practicing Catholics violate and are thus non-Christian is Justification by Faith. What vexed me in the dialogue was his insistence that works play no role in salvation. He said salvation for Christians is “assured by God because it rests in what God has done and not in anything we have done – that is why salvation is by faith and not works.”

What really vexed me is that at one point he said, “Faith is embedded with works. That is a given.” And in an earlier email, he said that when Paul said in James 2 what good is faith without works, Paul meant that just means a dead faith. Which of course is the whole point, you can’t separate the two. I said that his own description of James 2 gives the impression opposite his Justification by Faith “essential.”

Yet he keeps phrasing his doctrine as “Justification by Faith” and went on to add Catholics are wrong to assert Baptism imparts the Holy Spirit (which of course is contrary to Scripture, and I told him so).

The other fatal flaw he committed numerous times was to quote me passages that reference “works of the law” as being futile to salvation. I tried to explain to him usage of “works of the law” in Romans 4, for instance, as a reference to the Old Testament practice of circumcision. No avail.

So I had to leave it at that and told him if he wanted to respond, he could, but that I had finished my part.
 
Atemi said:
This claim is only in your head and not reality.

Of course, if a Catholic believes that telling them that their church is not what it claims to be is an inquisition, then there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Like I said earlier, I have been recently called an “anti-Catholic” here that “does not worship the real Jesus” and I “worship the Bible.”

Of course, no Catholics would condone that…

Sigh.
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Ok, so you got a taste of the same medicine that is being dished out at carm.

I am going to agree with you here. I am not going to condone it.
If your a victim as well then you should understand whats going on at carm rather than trying to deny it.

It serves only a divisive spirit when dialogue breaks down or is overrun with ignorance.

What I’ve stated about carm is not outside of reality any more than the claim about the fingers pointed at you probably is.

If you want to tell me that my Church is not what it claims to be that is fine if your willing to hear my side of the story impartially.

If instead you then do not want to rationally discuss and consider what I am to tell you to refute it then you are not impartial, if you can and then do not admit if my point is valid then you are proud.

A dialogue cannot be fruitful if minds are closed regardless of what side of the arguement your on.

There is very little legitimate dialogue going on at carm because most evanelical minds there are either closed, prejudiced or filled with lies and misconceptions about the Church. That is whats meant by anti-catholicism. Its no different than believing a Jew is a money grubber or a black person is sub-human. Its all prejudiced. When its slung at Christians by those claiming to be Christians then its about as ugly an hypocracy as I know.

This anti attitude at carm includes the Admins and Moderators themselves for the most part which gives all non-catholics a bad witness and frankly they should be ashamed of themselves and their behavior.
 
I figured you were Catholic, but I used your question to address the lurkers here.
You’re indulged. 😉
 
KatholikosMercy said:
Ok, so you got a taste of the same medicine that is being dished out at carm.

I am going to agree with you here. I am not going to condone it.
If your a victim as well then you should understand whats going on at carm rather than trying to deny it.

It serves only a divisive spirit when dialogue breaks down or is overrun with ignorance.

What I’ve stated about carm is not outside of reality any more than the claim about the fingers pointed at you probably is.

If you want to tell me that my Church is not what it claims to be that is fine if your willing to hear my side of the story impartially.

If instead you then do not want to rationally discuss and consider what I am to tell you to refute it then you are not impartial, if you can and then do not admit if my point is valid then you are proud.

A dialogue cannot be fruitful if minds are closed regardless of what side of the arguement your on.

There is very little legitimate dialogue going on at carm because most evanelical minds there are either closed, prejudiced or filled with lies and misconceptions about the Church. That is whats meant by anti-catholicism. Its no different than believing a Jew is a money grubber or a black person is sub-human. Its all prejudiced. When its slung at Christians by those claiming to be Christians then its about as ugly an hypocracy as I know.

This anti attitude at carm includes the Admins and Moderators themselves for the most part which gives all non-catholics a bad witness and frankly they should be ashamed of themselves and their behavior.
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Here, Here! I was just thinking about how unsettling it is that the Admin/Mods are so outwardly vicious to anything to do with Catholicism. You would think that they would keep a certain amount of decorum there. And people think they get attacked at CAF. Huh.
 
It appears to me that the bible is very clear about what we must do to go to heaven.
 
eveready said:
It appears to me that the bible is very clear about what we must do to go to heaven.
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Welcome, eveready. Well, the testament of 33,000+ denominations seems to belie that, but that is subjective anyway. Are you a fan of CARM? I’m not sure how your post fits in here.
 
eveready said:
It appears to me that the bible is very clear about what we must do to go to heaven.
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True. If we didn’t have the bible how would you know?

Matter of fact how did people know before Luther, the canon or how do illiterate people know?

Even a non-believer is given a sense of whats right and wrong.

Its the Pillar and Foundation of Truth that existed from the beginning and long before the canon that feeds Christs sheep. Not written word alone. The written word is only part of that feed.

That written word always says to preach the gospel with your actions and example first and then use words when necessary.

Truly I say to you, not even will you enter the kingdom of heaven lest you become as one of these little children.

There is no greater command than this. Love your God with all your heart mind and soul and love you neighbor as yourself.

These days we must ask ourselves how do we love ourselves. Is our conscience loving or disordered by false indoctrination.

O’ Where to turn for the answer, Pillar and Foundation perhaps? Hmmm.
 
I have decided to start posting examples of whats being posted on carm for all our liberal catholic friends:

Pope is a moron
So let’s see…the world is over-populated and this moron hailed as the pope of the roman catholic church is telling people in south america right now, and throughout the world that condom use is a sin.
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=52819

Matt Slick himself:
I would love for you to call up my radio show so that we could discuss whether or not Catholicism is Christian.

I firmly believe that official Roman Catholic theology is apostate and leads to damnation. I don’t say this to be offensive. I say this based upon my understanding of scripture compared to Roman Catholic teaching.

I’m always interested in a good dialogue on the radio show and, generally speaking, obstreperous people make the show good.
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=1249314#poststop

On so-called “Good Friday” Pope benedict again…blantantly mocked the sufferings of Our LORD Jesus Christ…by performing the so-called “stations of the cross” …in Rome…
Jesus never went to Rome.

Not only doest that apostate false prophet mock Our LORDS death by depicting the image of Nimrod Tammuz as that of Jesus…dead…on a cross…as if there was never a resurrection…But these Popes fear neither God nor man…and great will be their fall!..But all in God’s time…and it is for that (God’s time) I await expectingly!
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=1204279&postcount=1

I can go on and on and on.

Anyone still want James Swans (a carm supporter) opinion?
 
I heard a debate between Matt Slick and a Catholic apologist, I guess from his radio show.
Matt Slick came off as extremely arrogant to me.
 
jam070406 said:
I heard a debate between Matt Slick and a Catholic apologist, I guess from his radio show.
Matt Slick came off as extremely arrogant to me.
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:tiphat:Hey Jimmy!

The folks over at CARM are not only arrogant, but hateful. Remember that RC board? CARM makes the folks on the RC board sound intelligent and loving. Nuff said. 👍 Good to see you around!

Kelly
 
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