The Eternal [Mormon] Temple in the Eternal City [of Rome]

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LDS are the only ones who baptize dead people, EVERYONE else baptizes living people. As a result it wouldn’t even occur to most people to check the date of baptism against date of death. For most people this would be like asking - did he graduate from high school before or after he graduated from college.
But this started as a hypothetical descendant doing research about his ancestors, researching LDS records and being scandalized to find out that one was a Mormon. Anyone doing family history would not be so careless as to ignore dates.

You’re grasping at straws here.
 
xixxx…

I do want to add that Mormons have provided a great service to society and family in doing research for families. That I am personally appreciative.

Anyway, this thread was a great help to me in regards to the stand the Vatican is now taking. you don’t use sacred records to get members into an organization that is contrary to the former, etc., etc., etc. That form of action nullifies the intent.

The Vatican stand gives me now peace. Thanks, thanks again!
 
Thanks…I also read the BYU link…It greatly disturbed my peace…they will get hold of our ‘treasure trove of documents’ in attempt, according to their beliefs to get new members, even if they are dead.

But the Mormon Church, in response to calling our church an abomination and corrupt-- ignores all our treasure troves of documents going back to the beginning of Christianity that refute their stand against our Church.

There have been Mormons on here gleaning our language and thought. One was on our site…and finally showed us his link he made for the Mormons totally refuting the Eucharist. You feel used again.

I now counter with this document that records how Mass is said throughout the Christian world. It was written by the first great apologist of Christianity, St. Justin the Martyr. They won’t use these names on these documents…too close to the time of the alleged Great Apostasy…after the last apostle died.

I got this from Mike Aquilina’s work, ‘The Mass of the Early Christians’.

Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius requested of St. Justin who was residing in Rome now, to explain to him what the Mass is and what it means. At that time, Christians were meeting in secret, and to protect the integrity of the Eucharist, it was referred to as ‘The Secret’ in this time period. Before that, the Breaking of Bread.

Note as well that only those who were rich were encouraged – not forced or given a certain quota – in providing livelihood to the less fortunate.

We are never forced to give money or tithe. And yet we have most beautiful churches.

This was written about the year, 155 AD.

‘Sunday Mass in Rome’. 'On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or countryside gather in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has finished, the president instructs and exhorts them to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray…When our prayer is ended, bread and wine with water are brought forth, and the president offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability. The people assent, saying “Amen”; and there is a distribution to each of the eucharistic elements. The deacons carry a portion to those who are absent.

Those who are able give willingly whatever sum they each think appropriate. The money collected is deposited with the president. He gives it, then, to comfort orphans, widows, and those who are wanting, through sickness or any other cause; and those who are imprisoned, and strangers traveling among us. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

Sunday is when we hold our assembly because it is the first day, on which God brought forth the world from darkness and matter. On the same day, Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before Saturn’s day (Saturday); and on the day after Saturn’s day, which is the day of the sun, he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration.’

He has written other ‘apologies’ that go into more detail about the Eucharist. What is remarkable is that this was the practice of worship throughout the Christian world by 100 AD…this is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Like I demonstrated before, you can have kids come up and play the telephone game. They sit in a row, and one begins a line…it goes down person per person until it reaches the last one. Then that one gets up and replays what was heard…and it is interesting how the story changes with just a handful of people…person to person documentation if you want to call it that. And it comes up different.

So we have much documentation going back to Pentecost…but it is in various forms, including artifacts, historical references, references in later documents but all going back to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am sure the Vatican will be of much help to the Mormon church. I can read through the lingo and they have a full deck now on the situation. I keep the Mormon people in my prayers. I live two miles from their temple. I see people in it all hours of the day and night when I do night shifts…wondered what was going on. When I found out, it didn’t bother me…

But when I began to study Mormonism, etc., etc. etc…yes…as the Vatican said, this is a grave matter using records of our initiation into the life that bring us into the life of Jesus Christ.
 
But this started as a hypothetical descendant doing research about his ancestors, researching LDS records and being scandalized to find out that one was a Mormon. Anyone doing family history would not be so careless as to ignore dates.

You’re grasping at straws here.
Plus if they are doing said research on the LDS site, it’s all clearly put forward.

The only way this could be a problem is if a 3rd party scraped all the data and munged it together, hiding the fact that some data represented temple work.
 
Thanks…I also read the BYU link…It greatly disturbed my peace…they will get hold of our ‘treasure trove of documents’ in attempt, according to their beliefs to get new members, even if they are dead.
Yeah it was a bit off-putting for me too, but remember it’s an op-ed not an officially sanctioned BYU publication. What bothered me most was the author’s implication that the LDS somehow had a right to sacramental records. While I’ve been here defending the LDS right to their own rituals I don’t think we Catholics are compelled to assist them (and I might even argue that to knowingly do so constitutes sin). (S)he also seems to think that the Church will deny the request for information to anyone by virtue of their being LDS, which isn’t the case. Dioceses are now simply denying mass access to the information to LDS genealogical organizations.
But the Mormon Church, in response to calling our church an abomination and corrupt-- ignores all our treasure troves of documents going back to the beginning of Christianity that refute their stand against our Church.
There have been Mormons on here gleaning our language and thought. One was on our site…and finally showed us his link he made for the Mormons totally refuting the Eucharist. You feel used again.
Yeah, the LDS are rather crafty with redefining things.
We are never forced to give money or tithe. And yet we have most beautiful churches.
Well this might not be the case now, but the Catholic Church has historically instituted a mandatory 10% tithe. I remember when I was in Germany I had the opportunity to see the Zehntscheunen which were storehouses for the livestock and grain collected as tithes in Medieval Germany. I believe there were also local tithes put in place during the Crusades.
Like I demonstrated before, you can have kids come up and play the telephone game. They sit in a row, and one begins a line…it goes down person per person until it reaches the last one. Then that one gets up and replays what was heard…and it is interesting how the story changes with just a handful of people…person to person documentation if you want to call it that. And it comes up different.
I remember using the Telephone Game as an analogy for the Great Apostasy as a missionary and why continuing, public revelation is necessary. This was of course before I ever studied the history of early Christianity, the Ante-Nicene Fathers, or any other documentation which of course the Great Apostasy theory as suspect in my mind.
I am sure the Vatican will be of much help to the Mormon church. I can read through the lingo and they have a full deck now on the situation. I keep the Mormon people in my prayers. I live two miles from their temple. I see people in it all hours of the day and night when I do night shifts…wondered what was going on. When I found out, it didn’t bother me…
But when I began to study Mormonism, etc., etc. etc…yes…as the Vatican said, this is a grave matter using records of our initiation into the life that bring us into the life of Jesus Christ.
As an aside to what you wrote here, I think the Church is (and different apologetic apostolates are) starting to take LDS evangelism a bit more seriously. In my own parish we’re going to have a workshop on how to respond to LDS missionaries. I’ll be giving a few talks in order to give the inside scoop, so to speak 😉
 
Thanks for clarifying that this is not an official color of the Mormon church…However, I truly am convinced this link reflects the inner administrative circle of leadership in Mormonism.

I am also noting their one-sided indifference and lack of reciprocity if the shoe were on the other foot…They would not want us doing backhanded things to take their followers away from Mormonism and their families.

And Joseph Smith, et al, was allowed to appoint successors, yet the Apostles could not…

Interesting Mormon missionaries used the Telephone Game for their teaching! In ancient times of earliest Christianity…the faith was spreading rapidly in that world…already many people, many tongues and cultures…yet all coming to the Mass with the same essential structure and belief. But there were alot of ideas as well that needed to be addressed, and St. Justin was the first great one.

There are no artifacts of the Jewish people here in America. If you believe that Christ is the truth, the light and the way, you know putting on special spectacles is not needed.

Or Joseph Smith’s claims about the the Egyptian scrolls that were undeciphered at time…When encryptologists finally broke code…no secrets…just instructions in how to bury the dead.

The Vatican also needs to learn alot about the practices of Mormonism among its members; that is the other half of the issue. I read about various experiences of ex-Mormons on the internet…some were very specific to the leadership of their ward, others were similar. So I have alot of concern for the Mormon people who are questioning, ask but will not hear answers, or want to get out, but can’t for fear of loosing their loved ones.

Well now, baptizing the dead…vs instructions by ancient Egyptian scrolls in burying the dead…may be that is what these scrolls are trying to tell the Mormons…to simply bury their dead, and enclothe them with loving remembrance and prayer.

If there is evangelizing being prepared, you need to look at the Mormons’ lifestyle. You have to prepare guidance not only for belief and but basic practice with those you meet. Rich from Utah here is in a parish where they have alot of contact with Mormons.

Also, people need to know that there are various branches of Mormonism. And it looks like this New Mormon is emerging…I just hope it is not the sophists with evasive and deflective, re-framed arguments.

(Yes, I do recall now there was tithing for the Crusades…context…we were loosing our Holy Land. About Germany, thanks for letting me know. But tithing has not been tradition of our practice. Christ made our burden light, and we give what we can. In times of old, people would bring their wine and bread they made for the gifts.)

God bless you, and thanks so much for the Vatican link!! It deeply hit my conscience, I prayed about it last night…and the reality of their actions remained with me all the time…this is a grave wrong on the part of the Mormons. I pray for them ongoing…
 
Note the Vatican link says it going to continue to reach out the the Mormon Church…in Salt Lake City…
 
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