The Eternal [Mormon] Temple in the Eternal City [of Rome]

[Tony888]

My comment goes back to this comment.

Yes, there is a difference, a very big one, between praying for someone who has died and having a proxy baptism done by a different faith.

Baptism is seen by most Christian faiths as a rite/sacrament of initiation into that faith.
Prayer is not a rite.

Why are you avoiding my question? I asked:
Do you feel an lds baptism for the dead is any more harmful or intrusive than a Christian Mass for the dead?

After my Athiest Aunt died, she received a very nice commemorative card confirming a Catholic mass had been said for her, courtesy of some Catholic friends. It’s very easy for an athiest to be offended that this was done, just as you might be for a surogate baptism.

Please note, I have not said the two ceremonies/services are the same - Of course they are different.

What they do share is the expressed intent for the departed soul to join our hevanly father.

 

[Marie5890]

Why are you avoiding my question? I asked:
Do you feel an lds baptism for the dead is any more harmful or intrusive than a Christian Mass for the dead?

After my Athiest Aunt died, she received a very nice commemorative card confirming a Catholic mass had been said for her, courtesy of some Catholic friends.

Please note, I have not said the two ceremonies/services are the same - Of course they are different.

No I dont see it as “more harmful or intrusive” is my answer.
I see one as praying for the deceased. I see the other as a rite of initiation of a faith.

Prayer is not seen as an initiation rite by any Christian faith to the best of my knowledge

 

[Stephen168]

Praying for the dead, in Catholicism, would not be a good comparision, because in Catholicism, the only people who can be effectively prayed to, are those who are already headed for heaven. And one’s ultimate fate, in Catholicism, in decided at one’s death.

I agree.

Mormon post-death baptism only initiates person into the faith, if the person freely, with his/her free-will, accepts the offer that the post-death baptism provides.

…… the Orthodox Church, prayer for the dead is efficacious for all the dead, since in Orthodoxy, one’s ultimate fate is not set until at the Last Judgement, which hasn’t happened yet, and may not happen for hundreds, millions, or billions of years.

So, if we do compare praying for the dead and Mormon post-death baptism, then the comparison should be between Orthodox (and maybe Eastern Catholic) praying for the dead and Mormon post-death baptism.

I’m not seeing the similarity. Are the Orthodox asking the dead to become Orthodox before the Last Judgement?

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Whereas,

• I don’t believe in the efficacy of any LDS ordinance, not even antemortem LDS baptism,
• I understand that the LDS motivation to perform posthumous ordinances comes from that of love and not malice,
• I recognize that the temple rites are pretty central to LDS praxis, if not for the deceased then at least for the living.
• after posthumously baptizing/confirming/sealing/endowing a person the LDS do not pretend that such a person was LDS in life;

I personally see no reason to be offended by the practice. Possibly my feelings are colored by my having once been Mormon, but the LDS Church may do as it pleases with my name once I leave this Earth.

And to Ahimsa,

I find your comparison of LDS posthumous ordinances (particularly baptism) to Christian prayer for the dead tenuous at best. You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that the former is a religious rite of initiation, even more a specific religious ritual which in the Christian context actually affects the soul of the object while the latter is an act of piety which even in the mind of the subject depends only on the will of God. Your comparison of LDS posthumous ordinances would be valid if Catholics, say, had “Confession for the Dead” or “Holy Unction for the Dead”.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Whereas,

• I don’t believe in the efficacy of any LDS ordinance, not even antemortem LDS baptism,
• I understand that the LDS motivation to perform posthumous ordinances comes from that of love and not malice,
• I recognize that the temple rites are pretty central to LDS praxis, if not for the deceased then at least for the living.
• after posthumously baptizing/confirming/sealing/endowing a person the LDS do not pretend that such a person was LDS in life;

I personally see no reason to be offended by the practice. Possibly my feelings are colored by my having once been Mormon, but the LDS Church may do as it pleases with my name once I leave this Earth.

And to Ahimsa,

I find your comparison of LDS posthumous ordinances (particularly baptism) to Christian prayer for the dead tenuous at best. You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that the former is a religious rite of initiation, even more a specific religious ritual which in the Christian context actually affects the soul of the object while the latter is an act of piety which even in the mind of the subject depends only on the will of God. Your comparison of LDS posthumous ordinances would be valid if Catholics, say, had “Confession for the Dead” or “Holy Unction for the Dead”.

If this post were a petition, I’d sign it.

 

[BartBurk]

JUst curious, do you feel an lds baptism for the dead is any more harmful or intrusive than a Christian Mass for the dead? Both are usually done without the concent of the deceased, and often for people of another faith.
In principle, both are expressing one’s desire for another soul to join our father in heaven.

ir

My father was non-Catholic and a Catholic friend of his had a mass done for him. I don’t see any difference from having had my father baptized for the dead in a Mormon temple and prayers at a Catholic mass in his memory. They both attempted to do something for him after he had died.

 

[BartBurk]

big difference between praying for the dead and baptizing the dead

Sorry, but I don’t see a difference in intention at all. A Mormon baptism for the dead is meaningless so I don’t understand why people who don’t believe in it are so offended by it.

 

[BartBurk]

Sure, there are differences, but the similarity is that both involve a person of religion A, doing something such that a person of religion B, will be induced to join religion A.

LDS baptisms for the dead aren’t done with the intention of forcing a dead person to accept the LDS faith. They are done in case a person in the afterlife chooses to accept the LDS faith. The LDS do it for everyone because it would be impossible to know if a person chooses to accept the LDS faith after death.

As a Catholic the whole issue is mute – I don’t believe there is a missionary squad in the afterlife trying to induce people to become Mormon. I find the practice interesting, but not offensive or harmful. It certainly won’t harm the person who is already dead and whose fate was established at death! If people are offended by the practice of LDS baptism for the dead, then they are simply looking for something to be offended about.

 

[Stephen168]

They both attempted to do something for him after he had died.

I starting thinking about that during my exchange with Ahimsa: If you define something broad enough you can claim they are similar. But the similarity comes from how meaningless the definition of the something has become.

 

[BartBurk]

I also think the Catholic Church should let Mormons photograph their records. While Mormons are able to use the material for their temple practices, the world benefits because these records become more readily available. The Mormons gain something which in reality has no value while the world gets a valuable historical resource preserved. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

 

[BartBurk]

I starting thinking about that during my exchange with Ahimsa: If you define something broad enough you can claim they are similar. But the similarity comes from how meaningless the definition of the something has become.

It seems to me some Catholics are acting as if they are afraid the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead may really be true. That would be the only reason to be afraid of it or try to impede it. If it’s false it’s fine to tell people why, but don’t get offended by it.

 

[Marie5890]

Whereas,

• I don’t believe in the efficacy of any LDS ordinance, not even antemortem LDS baptism,
• I understand that the LDS motivation to perform posthumous ordinances comes from that of love and not malice,
• I recognize that the temple rites are pretty central to LDS praxis, if not for the deceased then at least for the living.
• after posthumously baptizing/confirming/sealing/endowing a person the LDS do not pretend that such a person was LDS in life;

I personally see no reason to be offended by the practice. Possibly my feelings are colored by my having once been Mormon, but the LDS Church may do as it pleases with my name once I leave this Earth.

Sums up well my thoughts as a former Mormon as well.
I do see and understand why others would be offended by the practice, just how I can see Tony888 being offended by getting a (if I recall one of his posts correctly) by his getting offended that a Mass card for his deceased aunt who was an atheist.

My posts had less to do with being taken offense at the practices and more to do with comparing of praying for the dead and having an initiation rite done by proxy for the dead.
I think it’s a poor comparison.

People being offended by both practices? Yea I can understand people feeling offended.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am most likely already baptized by the Mormon church for all I know, even before I am dead. It is meaningless to me.

And people who hold on to their beliefs stay with them.

When Masses are said for the deceased, it is not to make them Catholics in death. It is for the repose of their soul in eternal life…and most likely, what they desire in the next life, they will receive…and that they come to eternal rest with their creator…

What is wrong is getting access without permission or consent.

What is particular is how Mormonism has defined and portrayed the Roman Catholic Church, and now its temple is being built at Rome and working to bring Italian Catholics into their fold…without full disclosure to the Italian people what these temples are used for.

If Italians and others want to do a research to see Mormon perceptions of what and how they saw the Roman Catholic Church, you may be unable to find writings as they are being pulled.

So when I brought out my experience, I was treated as if nothing had happened and that I was making up this story. Another red flag.

And in no way should the names of Catholic faithful ever be handed out to some organization that considers our faith and our heritage as corrupt…and has in its own libraries…language surrounding the great Roman church and her Protestant daughters.

So seeing the traditional teachings of Mormonism and its antipathy towards Catholicism, I do have disdain for their forthcoming but hidden actions in Rome.\

In America or any place else, it is not an issue. But for what Mormonism has said and done and ritualized, specifically naming our Roman Catholic Church and faith, there is a definite disconnect on reflecting on their own actions when they come into Rome to begin their temple activities.

If I had not read those texts, I would not have felt this way. And to experience that they are now accusing me of making up the whole story…is just another part of it. So I am reacting because of how the Mormon church has defined my Church, specifically targeting the ‘great Roman Church’. The Jews have been very upset finding out this is going on to the names and heritage of their people.

Finally, people are not being told the whole belief system before their Mormon baptism because the Mormons want to be charitable. There is this saying, ‘Lying for the Lord’. Sorry, lying and underhanded activities are not in the Holy Spirit.

By the way, there is a HIPPA law at work with medical records. You give out personal information, you could be fined alot of money. The Catholic Church found out what was happening and now is better safeguarding our records.

 

[zaffiroborant]

If people are offended by the practice of LDS baptism for the dead, then they are simply looking for something to be offended about.

Quite a few Jewish people disagree with you on this.

 

[BartBurk]

Quite a few Jewish people disagree with you on this.

And I think they are wrong to be offended by a practice which has no real meaning.

 

[zaffiroborant]

And I think they are wrong to be offended by a practice which has no real meaning.

Well even the LDS church can see the point here or so they “promise”

 

[BartBurk]

I am most likely already baptized by the Mormon church for all I know, even before I am dead. It is meaningless to me.

And people who hold on to their beliefs stay with them.

When Masses are said for the deceased, it is not to make them Catholics in death. It is for the repose of their soul in eternal life…and most likely, what they desire in the next life, they will receive…and that they come to eternal rest with their creator…

What is wrong is getting access without permission or consent.

What is particular is how Mormonism has defined and portrayed the Roman Catholic Church, and now its temple is being built at Rome and working to bring Italian Catholics into their fold…without full disclosure to the Italian people what these temples are used for.

If Italians and others want to do a research to see Mormon perceptions of what and how they saw the Roman Catholic Church, you may be unable to find writings as they are being pulled.

So when I brought out my experience, I was treated as if nothing had happened and that I was making up this story. Another red flag.

And in no way should the names of Catholic faithful ever be handed out to some organization that considers our faith and our heritage as corrupt…and has in its own libraries…language surrounding the great Roman church and her Protestant daughters.

So seeing the traditional teachings of Mormonism and its antipathy towards Catholicism, I do have disdain for their forthcoming but hidden actions in Rome.\

In America or any place else, it is not an issue. But for what Mormonism has said and done and ritualized, specifically naming our Roman Catholic Church and faith, there is a definite disconnect on reflecting on their own actions when they come into Rome to begin their temple activities.

If I had not read those texts, I would not have felt this way. And to experience that they are now accusing me of making up the whole story…is just another part of it. So I am reacting because of how the Mormon church has defined my Church, specifically targeting the ‘great Roman Church’. The Jews have been very upset finding out this is going on to the names and heritage of their people.

Finally, people are not being told the whole belief system before their Mormon baptism because the Mormons want to be charitable. There is this saying, ‘Lying for the Lord’. Sorry, lying and underhanded activities are not in the Holy Spirit.

By the way, there is a HIPPA law at work with medical records. You give out personal information, you could be fined alot of money. The Catholic Church found out what was happening and now is better safeguarding our records.

Mormon temple rituals aren’t intended to make people Mormons. They are meant to make them Christian according to Mormon beliefs. They are to give them eternal rest because obviously a person who has not become Christian would not have eternal rest.

As I recall the Catholic Church claims Mormons aren’t Christian. That’s offensive to them. It may be true, but it offends Mormons. It seems to me we all are offended too easily.

 

[twopekinguys]

And I think they are wrong to be offended by a practice which has no real meaning.

Agreed, the baptisms of the dead are just a bunch of people getting wet for no reason, but…

It is the skewing of history that most people object to.

When people look up Aunt Betty from 3 generations ago, it is going to appear that she was Mormon, when in all actuality, she was not.

Culturally, that can cause some issues for people. Especially in the Jewish community.

 

[BartBurk]

Well even the LDS church can see the point here or so they “promise”

They don’t do the ordinances because it is bad PR for them among the Jews. It doesn’t make the Jews correct. I suspect there are Jews who would get offended because Catholics say unbaptized Jews must have a baptism of desire to be saved. Part of praying for the dead includes a belief that our prayers might change them at the time of death. Since God is outside of time he can take the prayers we make today and make them effective for someone who has died in the past. That means my prayer today might have been effective in my father’s soul before his death and helped him to choose to follow Jesus in the Catholic Church. What would Jews say if they knew our prayers for their dead were so they would have accepted Christ before they died? And then if they rejected Christ they were separated from God for eternity in hell? It seems the Mormon practice shouldn’t be any more offensive to them.

 

[Eutychus123]

Do any of our Muslim friends have a comment on this topic? Surely, some of them have been posthumously baptized by the LDS.