The Eternal [Mormon] Temple in the Eternal City [of Rome]

[KathleenGee]

Tony888

You are not aware of the past of your religion. You are a convert from Catholicism, correct?

You are trying to take CC460 out of catechism, ignoring all the teachings leading up to it about progression. We are talking about Jesus Christ as the source of our growth in holiness. But we will never become gods, and we do not want to.

It is troubling to see you become upset. But it is true, your religion is based on the construct that the Roman Church is corrupt. I have seen links from the Mormon Church invalidating our faith, and the faith of all our believers, as well as that in the rest of Christianity.

People can go to Ex Mormon sites and see what peoples’ experiences have been, including those in the mission field.

There is also not only Mormon belief but the common practices of believers in various wards. People who come out of Mormonism, become atheist, or they take a very long time to become Christianized because they have been damaged.

There is a movement now, the New Mormon, as well as a turn around in not having quite a particular opposition to Catholicism…but the fact remains----taking family names of the deceased and baptizing them without the consent or knowledge, and keeping the wedding partner out of the sealing ceremony in consideration of Mormonism’s past towards Catholic.

 

[Conor7]

You don’t see Catholics going behind Mormons to baptize their members. You don’t see parents being excluded from their children’s wedding…and I am speaking here of the Mormon sealing ceremony…I am speaking specifically as to what these temples are used for. And how damaging that would be for very tight families, not to be allowed to attend…

I don’t have any idea how I suddenly became the Mormon defender, but I am certainly expecting a check in the mail from their prophet. I don’t know if what you speak of above is true, but I don’t see what the big deal is. If non-Mormon parents can’t attend the wedding of their Mormon child, then that’s the choice the child made when they decided to convert. Don’t blame the church for the choices of the individual.

People do not know Italian culture. And the Italians do not know the history of Mormon practices, their books, the links being removed from the internet that will let you understand better, or the practices of the Temple, how exclusive they will become.

You make Italians sound like bumpkins. Don’t you for a second worry about the Italian people, they know how to read and can educate themselves. I don’t see Italians coverting to LDS by the masses.

Yes, the Mormon Church needs to fully disclose what they will be doing at the Mormon temple. It is for sealings and non-Mormons will not be allowed to attend, including the mother and father and siblings.

You won’t let me kneel at your communion rail; I’m not too terribly bent out of shape about it. I respect your practices and beliefs.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Additionally, it’s no more offensive for a Mormon to baptize the deceased than it is for you to pray for an atheist, Lutheran, or anyone else who has not solicited your prayer.

Praying for someone and baptizing them are entirely different. Praying is a private unrecorded act, baptism records your name birth and death dates, marriage if applicable and associates them with LDS baptism and other ordinances permanently. Not the same, not even in the same ballpark.

 

[KathleenGee]

It is getting access to personal information that you are not entitled to. You are doing some ritual using that person’s name to be something else they did not chose. Not only that, but it is in the people’s place of origin and church, considering Mormonism’s stand and convictions about the Roman Church. I am calling our Church that name today.

And people who could care less about other people’s culture with their great value of marriage as a family event – would even be more overjoyed getting a free trip to Italy for a week’s immersion, than a temple recommend for defending Joseph Smith.

Wish we had a free trip available for those interested…I would go in a heart beat!

Viva L’Italia!!

 

[Conor7]

Praying for someone and baptizing them are entirely different. Praying is a private unrecorded act, baptism records your name birth and death dates, marriage if applicable and associates them with LDS baptism and other ordinances permanently. Not the same, not even in the same ballpark.

I guess I don’t understand why anyone would be offended, let alone care. You’re upset because you may end up on some LDS baptismal certificate after you’re dead? According to previous posters, Pope John Paul II is on that list, so you’ll be in good company.

I’ve wound up on telemarketer lists that have been much more distressing.

 

[Conor7]

It is getting access to personal information that you are not entitled to. You are doing some ritual using that person’s name to be something else they did not chose. Not only that, but it is in the people’s place of origin and church, considering Mormonism’s stand and convictions about the Roman Church. I am calling our Church that name today.

And people who could care less about other people’s culture with their great value of marriage as a family event – would even be more overjoyed getting a free trip to Italy for a week’s immersion, than a temple recommend for defending Joseph Smith.

Wish we had a free trip available for those interested…I would go in a heart beat!

Viva L’Italia!!

Let’s just call a spade, a spade. You don’t like Mormons for whatever reason and you are using you’re religious convictions to thinly disguise your bigotry.

 

[zaffiroborant]

You are generalizing to the point of slander. Please be specific so we can discuss. And I expect the Italiahn Catholics will have studied their Catechism and are not shocked at the concept of “Christ became man so that man might become God”

.

So you’re still trying to prop up your religious beliefs by attaching them to Catholic ones, the “we’re just like you” is a pretty pathetic defense of LDS beliefs.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I guess I don’t understand why anyone would be offended, let alone care. You’re upset because you may end up on some LDS baptismal certificate after you’re dead? According to previous posters, Pope John Paul II is on that list, so you’ll be in good company.

I’ve wound up on telemarketer lists that have been much more distressing.

There are quite a few people who have been offended by this practice. I think the inability to understand why they are offended speaks poorly of an individuals ability to understand and empathize with their fellow human being.

 

[Stephen168]

So you’re still trying to prop up your religious beliefs by attaching them to Catholic ones, the “we’re just like you” is a pretty pathetic defense of LDS beliefs.

He continues to repeat the same lie over and over. So often, I have to wonder if it is his proselytizing strategy.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Let’s just call a spade, a spade. You don’t like Mormons for whatever reason and you are using you’re religious convictions to thinly disguise your bigotry.

I’m 100% with you on the merits of your argument, Conor. But that’s off-sides.

I mean come on: “using your religious convictions to thinly disguise your bigotry”… said the guy who just brought up Catholics using “heretics” as “kindling” two pages ago.

 

[Conor7]

There are quite a few people who have been offended by this practice. I think the inability to understand why they are offended speaks poorly of an individuals ability to understand and empathize with their fellow human being.

OK, fair enough. I understand what offends people about this practice - sort of.

I can see how one might think it’s disrespectful to the deceased. But still, look at it from a Mormon’s perspective, they believe they’re saving a soul. It’s all about perspective: Mormons think it’s an act of compassion, others think it’s disrespectful.

 

[Conor7]

I’m 100% with you on the merits of your argument, Conor. But that’s off-sides.

I mean come on: “using your religious convictions to thinly disguise your bigotry”… said the guy who just brought up Catholics using “heretics” as “kindling” two pages ago.

OK, you’re keeping me honest, Crdl2Grv. I apologize to Kathleen for my bluntness. Still, I stand by the fact that it’s religious intolerance.

P.S. For the record, I loves me some Catholics.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

He continues to repeat the same lie over and over. So often, I have to wonder if it is his proselytizing strategy.

This is a hypothesis that could almost be its own thread.

Tony, Parker, et al are obviously not stupid. So the continual cycles of the following have to be intentional:

LDS: “We’re the same.” CATHOLIC: “Uh, we’re not.” LDS: “I never said we were!” CATHOLIC: “You just did.” LDS: “Because, really, we are the same.” CATHOLIC: “You just said ‘we’re the same’ again.” LDS: “Click on this link to one of our prophets’ speeches. It explains everything.” CATHOLIC: “That guy says we’re different.” LDS: “Is this how you treat guests?!”

It must be intentional. Again, these people are obviously not stupid. I just cannot for the life of me figure out what exactly the goal behind it is.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

P.S. For the record, I loves me some Catholics.

For the record, if there were an emoticon that showed two anthropomorphic happy faces hugging it out, I’d totally use that right now.

 

[KathleenGee]

Conor…

You are missing the point…it is without the other party’s knowledge or consent, coupled with this particular religion declaring our faith as corrupt, and targeting these people in the country most popularly representative of our faith, as well as oblivious to the sensitivities and cultural family values of they have.

These concerns are not bigotry…sounds like spin here.

Going out to convert other people by baptizing them against their will because their faith is corrupt…where is tolerance in that?

 

[zaffiroborant]

OK, fair enough. I understand what offends people about this practice - sort of.

I can see how one might think it’s disrespectful to the deceased. But still, look at it from a Mormon’s perspective, they believe they’re saving a soul. It’s all about perspective: Mormons think it’s an act of compassion, others think it’s disrespectful.

There have been a number of Catholics and non-Catholics here (and on other boards) who have articulated just this understanding of the LDS practice. I have been asking for a member of the LDS church to show similar understanding and empathy toward those who have been offended. It has not happened, not one has shown an ability to go beyond their “self” and understand another person. This inability to understand another and to empathize with them speaks volumes to me.

 

[zaffiroborant]

He continues to repeat the same lie over and over. So often, I have to wonder if it is his proselytizing strategy.

I believe it is, along with the “we believe in The Trinity/The Incarnation too” that I read recently from an apologist well respected among the LDS. It is a deceptive proselytizing strategy to boot.

 

[Conor7]

Conor…

You are missing the point…it is without the other party’s knowledge or consent, coupled with this particular religion declaring our faith as corrupt, and targeting these people in the country most popularly representative of our faith, as well as oblivious to the sensitivities and cultural family values of they have.

These concerns are not bigotry…sounds like spin here.

Going out to convert other people by baptizing them against their will because their faith is corrupt…where is tolerance in that?

To say that they are baptizing people without their knowledge would presume that you believe that their baptism is valid. If you think their baptism is valid, then you might have a case and could possibly convince me.

Additionally, all I am asking is that you hold yourself to the same standards in which you are holding all Mormons. You are asking that Mormons be cognizant of the cultural and family values of Catholics, while dismissing the cultural values (postmortem baptism) of Mormons. You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth- complaining that Mormons are calling Catholics corrupt, while you speak of corruption in the LDS faith.

Not to mention, technically, they are not baptizing anyone against their wills. Corpses aren’t people, and they aren’t even baptizing corpses. They’re baptizing surrogates, for lack of a better term. So if you want to be really specific, they’re baptizing other LDS members who have fully consented.

 

[zaffiroborant]

To say that they are baptizing people without their knowledge would presume that you believe that their baptism is valid. If you think their baptism is valid, then you might have a case and could possibly convince me.

Not to mention, technically, they are not baptizing anyone against their wills. Corpses aren’t people, and they aren’t even baptizing corpses. They’re baptizing surrogates, for lack of a better term. So if you want to be really specific, they’re baptizing other LDS members who have fully consented.

The PBS show has material on “baseball baptisms” where young children of non LDS were baptized thinking they had been initiated into a baseball team. All these kids had to be excommunicated from the church, recorded excommunications. What things get you excommunicated from the LDS church? Things like murder, adultery and the like. Again it sounds like alot more than some nothing pious practice and a far cry from simply praying, unrecorded, for another person. But I see it doesn’t matter really, you are as unable to understand those offended as our LDS members here.

 

[Conor7]

The PBS show has material on “baseball baptisms” where young children of non LDS were baptized thinking they had been initiated into a baseball team. All these kids had to be excommunicated from the church, recorded excommunications. What things get you excommunicated from the LDS church? Things like murder, adultery and the like. Again it sounds like alot more than some nothing pious practice and a far cry from simply praying, unrecorded, for another person. But I see it doesn’t matter really, you are as unable to understand those offended as our LDS members here.

I picked my words poorly and you are going to hold me to it. I understand why people are offended, I just don’t put that much stock in it to bother being offended.

I don’t know if what you say above is true, but assuming it is, that is very different than the argument of baptizing the deceased. Perhaps someone who is actually LDS, unlike myself, can speak more to your point. Although, do you know that it was actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who was baptizing the baseball team, and not some splinter group? We as outsiders are notorious for lumping all of them together.

I don’t even know how I got into this argument; I’m not LDS. I probably agree with most of your points, but just feel argumentative.

Start a thread about Scientology and I promise to agree with everything you say.

P.S. To Kathleen, again I would like to apologize for calling it “thinly veiled bigotry.” It got too heated and I was out of line.