The eternal punnishment never ceases to bother me

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matt1917

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I’ve known people who were wicked and Godless. I was one of them enslaved to mortal sin with evil desires. I hate the idea that some of these souls will suffer for ever and ever and ever. I’m so sorry. Such a reality is so terrible. I can never love or agree with God’s decision to allow people to suffer agony forever.

How have you coped with the reality of Hell and the possibility of loved ones going there?
 
I know what you mean. But I take great comfort in the fact that God is infinitely loving and merciful. If it’s God’s will that I or my friends go to hell, then it’s God’s will because He loves us. He knows far better than I do about whether I deserve Heaven or Hell, or whether my friends do.
 
Matt, your sensitivity gives you a call to faithfully pray for these souls.

Hell is a rejection of love and goodness that becomes eternal at death.
We are intended for eternal love and goodness, and to have lived without it means that we choose eternity without the love and goodness that gives humans joy.

“If the greatest sinner should repent at the moment of his death, and draw his last breath in an act of love, neither the many graces he had abused, nor the multiplied crimes he had committed, would stand in his way. Our Lord would see nothing, count nothing, but the sinner’s last prayer, and without delay He would receive him into the arms of His mercy.” (Saint Therese of Lisieux)

“Cease to do evil. Learn to do good, search for justice, help the oppressed, be just to the orphan, and plead for the widow. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” [Isaiah 1:17-18]

“A spark of pure love is more precious before God, more useful for the soul, and richer in benedictions for the Church than all other works taken together.” (St John of the Cross)

“Heaven is filled with converted sinners of all kinds, and there is room for more” (St. Joseph Cafaso)

Remember that in the judgement of souls, in Matthew 25 verses 31-46, Jesus makes clear that practical charity to others is His primary criteria. A link given in my signature below.

God bless you for your genuine concern for others’ souls.
 
I think it’s worth asking what you mean when you say “God’s decision to allow people to suffer agony forever”? That makes it sound as if it’s God’s wish for people to end up in Hell. Surely you know that’s not true.

If you’re asking why the possibility of Hell exists at all for us, it’s because we have free will and can choose to accept God and share eternal life with Him forever, or we can choose to reject God and spend eternity apart from Him, which is by far the worst part of Hell. It’s not God’s decision that condemns people to Hell, it’s their own choice. 😦
 
matt1917 said:
I’ve known people who were wicked and Godless. I was one of them enslaved to mortal sin with evil desires. I hate the idea that some of these souls will suffer for ever and ever and ever. I’m so sorry. Such a reality is so terrible. I can never love or agree with God’s decision to allow people to suffer agony forever.

How have you coped with the reality of Hell and the possibility of loved ones going there?
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It is my sincere hope that there are no human beings in Hell. The possibility of Hell exists because God wants us to love Him voluntarily. He does not want us to be slaves.

If there are human beings in Hell, they chose to be there voluntarily - they did not go there by accident, and it was because they did not want to love God.

And why, after all, should God allow those into His private home who do not love Him? Would you allow your enemy to come into your house, to do who knows what to you? So, why should God have to allow His enemies into His home?
 
This whole topic is kinda interesting, as far we know, it’s even a point used sometimes agains religion itself: “If your god is so loving, how could he have the heart to send his sons to punishment for always? does he want everyone to be robots who follow him blindly because otherwise they would suffer for ALL eternity?”

Now, there’s a possibility, we’re told people could go to one of two places (maybe 3 if we count purgatory?), however, maaaaaybe there’s a possibility “universal recontiliation” could have something right: that, in some way, everyone would eventually be rescued and reconciliate?

Does anyone else know about this?
 
ErCaiman said:
This whole topic is kinda interesting, as far we know, it’s even a point used sometimes agains religion itself: “If your god is so loving, how could he have the heart to send his sons to punishment for always? does he want everyone to be robots who follow him blindly because otherwise they would suffer for ALL eternity?”

Now, there’s a possibility, we’re told people could go to one of two places (maybe 3 if we count purgatory?), however, maaaaaybe there’s a possibility “universal recontiliation” could have something right: that, in some way, everyone would eventually be rescued and reconciliate?

Does anyone else know about this?
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newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

🙂
 
ErCaiman said:
Thanks for the link
Now… I haven’t read the whole thing in detail yet, but as far I understand, some say it is while other says it doesn’t? so basically it’s still something the catholic church isn’t definite about?
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I think the general gist of it is that it’s probably incorrect. It directly implicates the problem of free will, for example. If everyone, in the end, goes to heaven, then how can we see that we are truly free?

So, I’m not sure. The obvious response defending the theory is, “Yes, but if everyone happens to choose to love God and seek forgiveness of sins, then everyone has made an individual choice. The mere statistical fact that 100% of people have made a choice doesn’t tell us whether the choice was freely made or not.”

Ultimately, I guess it would come down to a question of how you achieve universal reconciliation.
 
matt1917 said:
I’ve known people who were wicked and Godless. I was one of them enslaved to mortal sin with evil desires. I hate the idea that some of these souls will suffer for ever and ever and ever. I’m so sorry. Such a reality is so terrible. I can never love or agree with God’s decision to allow people to suffer agony forever.

How have you coped with the reality of Hell and the possibility of loved ones going there?
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I’m okay with not everyone going to Heaven as nothing unholy can be in the presence of God. I am not okay, far from it, with people suffering greatly constantly and with no hope of seeing their condition change (eternal hell). Which is saying I’m not okay with it being either total blast in heaven or total nighmare in hell. Which is saying that a God who was truly loving would never consider eternal misery for anyone to be a great idea. A truly loving God would never allow millions of angels and human beings to be tortured eternally so that his justice can be satisfied. He chooses his own petty satisfaction, the glorification of his justice, as “God will not be mocked” over the eternal fate of millions. Love God, go to heaven, don’t love God, get temporary chastisement, then soul ceases to exist. There is no solution apart from annilation. No one sufferes needlessly, no one is tormented, God has a whole eternity to get over having been rejected by masses of people and angels. The teaching of hell is a stumbling block for many, you can’t, in good faith, defend God’s perfection and omnibenevolence and this insane idea of hell, which emerged from God’s mind. You just can’t.
 
matt1917 said:
I’ve known people who were wicked and Godless. I was one of them enslaved to mortal sin with evil desires. I hate the idea that some of these souls will suffer for ever and ever and ever. I’m so sorry. Such a reality is so terrible. I can never love or agree with God’s decision to allow people to suffer agony forever.

How have you coped with the reality of Hell and the possibility of loved ones going there?
Click to expand...
I like the poster who stated that people in hell by their own choice to reject God.

A description of it for me was that we can use our wills to pursue God or not.

When we die, our will is locked wherever it was pointed either to God and heaven or to hell and our own selfishness.

The doors of hell are locked from the inside. Meaning that the people there are so inwardly focused they can’t get out even if they wanted to.
 
jmcrae said:
It is my sincere hope that there are no human beings in Hell. The possibility of Hell exists because God wants us to love Him voluntarily. He does not want us to be slaves.

If there are human beings in Hell, they chose to be there voluntarily - they did not go there by accident, and it was because they did not want to love God.

And why, after all, should God allow those into His private home who do not love Him? Would you allow your enemy to come into your house, to do who knows what to you? So, why should God have to allow His enemies into His home?
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Hell exists because God takes rejection of his person very seriously, and that his justice will not tolerate it. Period.

Indians who lived in New France before Jacques Cartier ever came, some of them, I’m sure, must be in hell. How exactly, from your peculiar perspective, did they choose hell, of whose existence they were not even aware?

God came up with this “my way or the highway” deal, with this binary system where dissenters are punished by God himself way more harshly than Kim Jong-un’s uncle, breaking news God could have come up with a better system of eternal bliss or eternal torture. Annihilation sounds appealing, I’m sure a god less obsessed with revenge and avenging his offended self could have come up with something else. There is a difference between not allowing your enemies into your own home and burning them alive, putting out the fire before it kills them, then burying them alive and giving them air seconds before they suffocate. Rinse and repeat. Which is what hell is.

“God doesn’t want us to be slaves”. The damned sure do look like hopeless slaves to me. Wouldn’t it be better to be a temporal slave, unable to not love God and follow his will, than to be an eternal miserable slave? Surely, you don’t mean the things you say. You’re forced to follow the party line and rehash the lines they had you memorize, right?
Hell exists, not because it could not have been avoided, but because to God his justice is paramount. He will choose the satisfaction of his justice over the eternal fate of millions or billions any day. His justice is the sole reason there is a hell. Annihilation would deprive God’s justice of its precious satisfaction. In the absolute sense, God only loves those who love him.
 
I think Jesus reveals truth to us on a level we can understand, while we are in this life (The natural law is written on our hearts.) Evil will reject that truth, even though it knows it to be true. (James 2:19 Even the demons believe, and shudder.) It seems to me that if one is open to truth, and trying to live the best they can according to what they know, then God’s mercy will take into account their ignorance at the particular judgement. However, if someone sees and understands the Truth, and goes against it anyway, they are choosing to live without God, which is what the Catechism says is the greatest suffering in hell.
 
Robertanthony said:
Hell exists because God takes rejection of his person very seriously, and that his justice will not tolerate it. Period.

Indians who lived in New France before Jacques Cartier ever came, some of them, I’m sure, must be in hell. How exactly, from your peculiar perspective, did they choose hell, of whose existence they were not even aware?

God came up with this “my way or the highway” deal, with this binary system where dissenters are punished by God himself way more harshly than Kim Jong-un’s uncle, breaking news God could have come up with a better system of eternal bliss or eternal torture. Annihilation sounds appealing, I’m sure a god less obsessed with revenge and avenging his offended self could have come up with something else. There is a difference between not allowing your enemies into your own home and burning them alive, putting out the fire before it kills them, then burying them alive and giving them air seconds before they suffocate. Rinse and repeat. Which is what hell is.

“God doesn’t want us to be slaves”. The damned sure do look like hopeless slaves to me. Wouldn’t it be better to be a temporal slave, unable to not love God and follow his will, than to be an eternal miserable slave? Surely, you don’t mean the things you say. You’re forced to follow the party line and rehash the lines they had you memorize, right?
Hell exists, not because it could not have been avoided, but because to God his justice is paramount. He will choose the satisfaction of his justice over the eternal fate of millions or billions any day. His justice is the sole reason there is a hell. Annihilation would deprive God’s justice of its precious satisfaction. In the absolute sense, God only loves those who love him.
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Wow. You really just don’t get it.
 
Jon_S said:
I like the poster who stated that people in hell by their own choice to reject God.

A description of it for me was that we can use our wills to pursue God or not.

When we die, our will is locked wherever it was pointed either to God and heaven or to hell and our own selfishness.

The doors of hell are locked from the inside. Meaning that the people there are so inwardly focused they can’t get out even if they wanted to.
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there’s kinda a problem with the idea tho.
How exactly do they “chose” to be there? following absolutely ALL the rules at all time on Earth or explicitly saying they will NOT follow? because if it’s the former, don’t forget that’s kinda the reason some people become atheist: it is something known by a lot of people to be EXTREMELY hard, if not just plain impossible, if we don’t even follow earthly laws to the letter, It seems pretty hard to believe.

And where does it say that someone’s will is locked after death? things are kinda vague about the afterlife and we can’t even say who goes where.

I don’t think that I can’t agree with the same poster you do, as another poster said, how can there be omnibenevolence in decided eternal suffering for a being even if they change their minds? or even lack of sympathy? there’s a lot of problems in such a view, because even normal, sympathetic human beings would feel horrible about such a fate.
 
ErCaiman said:
there’s kinda a problem with the idea tho.
How exactly do they “chose” to be there? following absolutely ALL the rules at all time on Earth or explicitly saying they will NOT follow? because if it’s the former, don’t forget that’s kinda the reason some people become atheist: it is something known by a lot of people to be EXTREMELY hard, if not just plain impossible, if we don’t even follow earthly laws to the letter, It seems pretty hard to believe.

And where does it say that someone’s will is locked after death? things are kinda vague about the afterlife and we can’t even say who goes where.

I don’t think that I can’t agree with the same poster you do, as another poster said, how can there be omnibenevolence in decided eternal suffering for a being even if they change their minds? or even lack of sympathy? there’s a lot of problems in such a view, because even normal, sympathetic human beings would feel horrible about such a fate.
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Gods plans are far bigger than ours.

The church teaches unequivocally that there is no changing of ones mind after death. This life is our decision time and proving ground.
 
matt1917 said:
I’ve known people who were wicked and Godless. I was one of them enslaved to mortal sin with evil desires. I hate the idea that some of these souls will suffer for ever and ever and ever. I’m so sorry. Such a reality is so terrible. I can never love or agree with God’s decision to allow people to suffer agony forever.

How have you coped with the reality of Hell and the possibility of loved ones going there?
Click to expand...
Hell is the the most terrifying concept imaginable, and Our Lady of Fatima - far from speaking of Hell as a hypothetical - provides a vision of Hell; a vast lake of fire, with swarms of souls in it at this moment. I do not believe that Mary is a liar or deceptive, nor do I believe Jesus Christ is deceptive. A) Hell is real, B) There are souls that are there as we speak.

I wish I could tell you in precise terms how this struggle of mine faded to a state of faithful but uncomfortable acceptance. It was a combination of study (understanding the theological necessity of Hell), prayer, growth, and charity. I’ve also lost the optimistic perception that no soul could truly choose to reject God. I really do believe there are people out there - perhaps an enormous number of them - that simply do not love God. That simply hate his precepts, his laws, his nature, and who His Son is. Hell is a very viable path for each one of us should we so choose.
 
Jon_S said:
Wow. You really just don’t get it.
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In all honesty, good sir, I think it’s the other way around. There’s a new spin on hell, on the hardest teachings of the Church. I’ve never heard “The damnation of a soul causes more suffering in God than the damned will ever expereince”, but I don’t doubt I may very well hear it soon. Everything is about God, you ain’t here for your own sake, but for God’s glorification and pleasure. If you deny God both the glory and pleasure he feels entitled to from you, bye bye Jon, it’s satanland when you die. The sole reason you’ll suffer eternally is in order for God’s justice to be satisfied. God gets glorified by the elects thru their worship and gets glory from people’s eternal misery by his justice. Conclusion: in the end, God gets glorified anyhow. Who cares if millions will cry their hearts out and wish they were dead for eternity? As long as God’s glory is preserved and exalted. Pretty heartless to me. What part of “it’s all about God” do you not get? Don’t you think an eternity of torment is a little overkill, maybe? Just maybe.
 
Robertanthony said:
In all honesty, good sir, I think it’s the other way around. There’s a new spin on hell, on the hardest teachings of the Church. I’ve never heard “The damnation of a soul causes more suffering in God than the damned will ever expereince”, but I don’t doubt I may very well hear it soon. Everything is about God, you ain’t here for your own sake, but for God’s glorification and pleasure. If you deny God both the glory and pleasure he feesl entitled to from you, bye bye Jon, it’s satanland when you die. The sole reason you’ll suffer eternally is in order for God’s justice to be satisfied. God gets glorified by the elects thru their worship and gets glory from people’s eternal misery by his justice. Conclusion: in the end, God gets glorified anyhow. Who cares if millions will cry their hearts out and wish they were dead for eternity. As long as god’s glory is preserved and exalted. What part of “it’s all about God” do you not get? Don’t you think an eternity of torment is a little overkill, maybe? Just maybe.
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Nope
 
Jon_S said:
Gods plans are far bigger than ours.

The church teaches unequivocally that there is no changing of ones mind after death. This life is our decision time and proving ground.
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We’re still under the assumption they’re for everyone’s good tho, since god is pretty much goodness itself, so such things are still pretty hard to believe. Still, saying the plans are greater than we know isn’t exactly answering the questions tho.
How do they exactly choose to be there? I’m not sure would a being which is literally ALL justice, mercy, love, goodness, etc. agree with sentencing misguided beings into an endless torment and even be completely alright with the eternal suffering they’d be experiencing? or assuming there would be people in the kingdom, the big chances they would be spending their time begging for mercy instead of enjoying like the scriptures mentioned? I don’t think such questions could only be answered by asking for trust tho, lest we would fall into blind faith.

Strange, I’ve never heard of such think as a mind lock in the afterlife, as far I remember, actually I remember how there are many things mentioning our free will instead.

Edit: Actually, Robertanthony kinda has a point, since as humans, the punishment itself seems REALLY disproportionate, at least from the point we understand and the information we know.
 
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