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babs57
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But, that’s exactly it. They actively choose to NOT follow.
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Perlita
Guest
Why someone that does’not love God or believe in Him would want to be an eternity with Him? God is love and He loves all mankind, but He gave us free will and He respects it. Maybe the answer for us is to pray for all sinners (we included) and be a good example for those that don’t believe in God.
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Robertanthony
Guest
I see you’re a man of few words. If people come here seeking answers to questions that perplex them, quoting the CC verbatim will not do it, saying “you don’t get it” will not do it either. If you’re happy with the faith of a small child and never question anything because “dad knows best”, and “since dad said it, then it must be so”, I can’t expect much from you in the way of novel ideas, new takes on things, insights etc. Have you ever considered becoming an apologist?
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Jon_S_1
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You asked a very specific question and I gave a very specific answer.
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Robertanthony
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ok bud, i don’t want his thread to be between me and you, so leave it at that. Go on quoting the CC. I want to see people who can produce original thoughts, old and tired stuff rehashed ad nauseam annoys me. Condescending people do, too.
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babs57
Guest
Who said God wouldn’t have mercy on the misguided? Please read:
Mk 9:42
1 Jn 3:6-9
2 Pet 2:1-22
Rev 20:10
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RedFox0456
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I have often wondered about this topic. I think we all have. Something that crossed my mind. Satan and the other fallen angels have chosen to go against God. It was not God who put them in Hell, but quite literally themselves by denying His love. God cannot remove them from that state without violating their free will.
When we consider that God did not give us arbitrary rules that would either please or displease Him, but rather gave us the guidebook on how to live so that we might be fully human, then suddenly sin and the rejection of God take on a whole other level. We damage ourselves by denying Him and by acting against Him. Our spirit is turned away from Truth and chooses to follow the spirit of the age. And so, when we die, we do not want God. And He cannot intervene because in spite of our state bringing us agony, we refuse treatment.
This could be totally wrong - feel free to correct me if there are any conflicts between Church teaching and this notion.
When we consider that God did not give us arbitrary rules that would either please or displease Him, but rather gave us the guidebook on how to live so that we might be fully human, then suddenly sin and the rejection of God take on a whole other level. We damage ourselves by denying Him and by acting against Him. Our spirit is turned away from Truth and chooses to follow the spirit of the age. And so, when we die, we do not want God. And He cannot intervene because in spite of our state bringing us agony, we refuse treatment.
This could be totally wrong - feel free to correct me if there are any conflicts between Church teaching and this notion.
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ErCaiman
Guest
How do they choose tho? do they die and explicitly declare they will NOT do so?
Hmm… those seem to have a pretty interesting amount of information, thanks!
But with it I meant people that interpretted stuff wrong, and for some reason other than rebelling against that specific being, like, for example, judgement and believing said being doesn’t exist THEN finding out there was one to their big surprise, they made an error and were wrong, is that reason enough to sentence them even if they now believe since they have seen?
I’m not trying to judge souls tho, but it is a thing that maybe we should answer if it’s possible.
I still don’t know where does the idea that one’s will is locked after death come from tho…
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djames99
Guest
God is never so cold that he would turn away from the smallest gesture in us to change. If I’m fortunate perhaps purgatory will be longer for me, but those who finally turn to a just life of Reconciliation and the Eucharist, even in the final hours will find salvation. In purgatory the saints,the Blessed Virgin, and our saved loved ones will come to console us and to instill hope in out misery.
I like to think of St. Dismus the thief on the cross, who in last hour changed and was promised heaven. St. Paul who’s life was going great and flying high with his job tormenting Christians, changed also. We all today have received the word from Christ to “stop tormenting him”. We can now embark on Paul’s example and spend the remainder of our life in his service. Augustine with his life of vice, was patiently and tolerated by God and given a long recover time so that he can find his way back.
We can see from these examples that even when the scales appear to lean one way, Christ is with us so that we can “be with him at his father’s table”. In our misery here on earth, it proves that God wants us to spend less time in purgatory but in heaven.
I like to think of St. Dismus the thief on the cross, who in last hour changed and was promised heaven. St. Paul who’s life was going great and flying high with his job tormenting Christians, changed also. We all today have received the word from Christ to “stop tormenting him”. We can now embark on Paul’s example and spend the remainder of our life in his service. Augustine with his life of vice, was patiently and tolerated by God and given a long recover time so that he can find his way back.
We can see from these examples that even when the scales appear to lean one way, Christ is with us so that we can “be with him at his father’s table”. In our misery here on earth, it proves that God wants us to spend less time in purgatory but in heaven.
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Techno2000
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ErCaiman
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What is that?
I kinda read but I don’t exactly understand, does that mean people become robotic, one-dimensional, Real-Time Strategy unit-like things when they die? or that she was secretly pretty… that? because for how the story narrates, it seems… Abnormally casual for someone who is supposed to be in excruciating pain…
And what’s the origin of that story anyways?
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Techno2000
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I don’t know what it’s like to be a spirit in the Supernatural world .What is that?
I kinda read but I don’t exactly understand, does that mean people become robotic, one-dimensional, Real-Time Strategy unit-like things when they die? or that she was secretly pretty… that? because for how the story narrates, it seems… Abnormally casual for someone who is supposed to be in excruciating pain…
And what’s the origin of that story anyways?
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ErCaiman
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There are… Several problems with this, it’s basically saying that people, after death, are turned into a one-dimesional… Robot-like thing, I don’t understand any of it, but the story itself seems extremely weird, I don’t get it. But yet, as a question, how would someone in heaven, assuming they retained their humanity, be happy with it?
I still don’t know where does that story originate from.
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keenforgod
Guest
Hell is scary. God permitting souls to choose Hell is an expression, I think, of His Justice. God really, really respects our free will. This is how I cope with the reality of Hell:
*]I trust in God’s mercy.
*]I do my best to counsel my brothers/sisters in this world to achieve Heaven.
*]I pray for souls who are in Purgatory.
*]I grow in my prayer life and strive to be holy so that I can be of use to my brethren while on earth.
*]I grow in all the virtues and help my brethren build up theirs.
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ericc
Guest
God desires ALL to be saved, but not all want to be saved. If he forces one to be saved (i.e. do what you like when you are alive, pay for the sins after I am dead, eventually I will be saved), then mankind has no true free will. He might just as well create machines.
Have you thought of the consequences if God guarantees all will be saved? Then there is no incentive to live a good/holy life for some. Sin becomes a drug. Pleasure now, pay later after I am dead. I don’t care when I am dead anyway. This world will end up in chaos and many innocent folks will suffer at the hands of the wicked men/women who are all guaranteed to be in heaven EVENTUALLY against their will. Is this your preferred outcome? If you have seen the evil inflicted by these wicked people on innocent human beings, will you still feel the same way I wonder? Do you think justice is done? Just sit in jail long enough, and heaven awaits you. After all, I am already dead.
At the end, one still has to defer to God’s judgement that his way is still the most just. He has the benefit of omniscience, we don’t.
So, if we have loved ones that are doing evil, instead of blaming God for his decisive method of handling evil-doers, perhaps we should look at what we can do to save these people form eternal damnation. God is fair. His rules are clear and transparent. He does not grant get out of jail card for non-repentant evil doers. He gives sufficient time for all to u-turn. It is up to us to seize that opportunity, which is lost forever when our time in this world is up. There is no reincarnation, period.
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babs57
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This is from the catechism:
“1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.”
As far as there being no free will after death, I’m not sure what is meant by that. Perhaps once one is in the beatific vision, there is no need for choosing. And will is about making choices.
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mgoforth
Guest
“There is nothing new under the sun”. Didn’t you know that Robert?
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mgoforth
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Trishie
Guest
People choose hell by the way they choose to live their lives. If they live their lives selfishly, without generosity and kindness to others, then they have chosen a future without love or beauty or goodness (hell).
If they have lived in practical kindness to others, in respect of others’ needs and rights, then they have chosen a future of love and goodness (heaven)
Jesus as Judge of souls explains how souls choose heaven or hell, in
Matthew 25 verses 31-46 I’ve broken the scripture verses into paragraphs so that it is easier to read
devotions.net/bible/00bible.htm
The Judgement of the Nations
‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”
Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”
Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?”
Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
If they have lived in practical kindness to others, in respect of others’ needs and rights, then they have chosen a future of love and goodness (heaven)
Jesus as Judge of souls explains how souls choose heaven or hell, in
Matthew 25 verses 31-46 I’ve broken the scripture verses into paragraphs so that it is easier to read
devotions.net/bible/00bible.htm
The Judgement of the Nations
‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”
Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”
Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?”
Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
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ErCaiman
Guest
That’s not exactly true, there can be quite enough incentive in the fact that someone could be there for a LONG amount of time, it’s excruciating pain nonetheless, otherwise, how come many avoid jail even if life sentence isn’t standard?
The problem isn’t exactly that “people choose to be evil”, it’s “how people choose”, and as far we’re told, it is by, for example, making a mortal sin and, not being catholic for whatever reason (not having enough reason to believe in a god like many atheists do, having another culture, living in an isolated tribe in a remote area, etc) or forgetting about it, that’s like saying one chooses to starve for being poor. If we’re supposed to be alive after death too, and we possess free will, how come there’s no chance of repentance?
Don’t forget also that many choose to just plain leave religion exactly due to the problem of hell, no one in their right mind would explicitly choose/want eternal suffering for themselves, or for others; and I can’t find a single way to be assured if there’s a possibility me/someone I love/a complete stranger would be hopeless if a single mistake is made and for some reason are unable to fix it. The point of free will isn’t just making choices, it is chosing to change them according to the circumstances as well.
I still do believe we should take the things we’re taugh and revise them, last time we had a dogma imposed a LOT of people died when it was tried to be impossed.
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