The Ethics of Eating "Happy Meat"

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While food is necessary for survival, we need not consume animals for food – a plant-based diet is fully adequate. So the consumption of animals is not necessary for survival.
We need not drive our cars to work either we could walk everywhere. It is not a mater of need, it is one of choice. You may choose not to eat meat, that is all well and good, but others may desire to eat meat as their protein source and that is all well and good also and no one has the right to prevent them from choosing this.

One only has to look at the human mouth to see that we were made to eat meat as well as plant based food. Any nutritionist worth their degree will tell you that a balanced diet, including meat, is best for ones health.

Not to mention that greens are yuckey while steak, pork chops, lobster, shrimp, chicken and many other animal protein sources are very tasty.
 
Do you adhere to the calling from God that human beings are to cherish and care for all of this creation?
Not in the sense that you mean. I adhere to Church teaching and Sacred Scripture on this. Care? If this is used in the sense of caretaker; dominion, as opposed to cherish. Man’s relationship to animals is not a spousal one.
I argue that animals were placed on earth for the glory of God and only under strict conditions, use certain animals. But they do not exist for us, but for themselves and for God.
I disagree that animals do not exist for us. I have never seen this in Church teaching and it does seem to contradict God placing Man in dominion of the animals. I definitely do not believe they exist for themselves as they have no immortal soul.
 
  1. The Gospels did not mention “animal rights”. I told you previously that I do not currently adhere to “rights” but “welfare”. Gospels didn’t mention a lot of things. But where is your dominion definition do you express:
    “Animals are God’s creatures. By their mere existence they bless Him and give Him glory. Thus men owe them kindness.” Catechism of the Catholic Church n. 2416
2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.
This is why I do not think we can divorce the good for animals from what is good for Man. They are a resource. They are a different resource than plants or inanimate beings and require a greater degree of consideration. However, whenever we grant them too much consideration, we diminish our humanity as surely as granting them none.
2418 One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
So I say no, that cherishing them is contrary to Catholic teaching. LIke a sentimental inanimate object, we can invest them with too much value.
 
Hoo-Haw another thread for those who love to argue for its own sake!
If G*d did not want us to eat animals, he wouldn’t have made them out of meat.:D:D:D
 
From what you say, it’s unclear whether you accept the Necessity Principle, that killing animals for food is immoral when doing so is unnecessary for human health and survival.
The difference is you keep adding the words health and survival. That is never found in Catholic teaching. I will reject that the only reason we can use animals is for health and survival. Man is not an animal and needs much more than survival. This is why God did not flinch from instituting animal sacrifice in the Mosaic Covenant.
 
While food is necessary for survival, we need not consume animals for food – a plant-based diet is fully adequate. So the consumption of animals is not necessary for survival.
I am not persuaded of this.

Like the Indian referred to earlier who kills a buffalo, our ancestors (mine anyway, being of European extraction) totally depended on their herds for survival, for thousands of years. There’s no food for humans in the world’s grasslands. Without ruminant animals, grasslands might as well be sandy deserts, for all the food they can produce.

Today? Well, fully 1/3 of the world’s habitable surface is grassland. Same is true of the U.S. People can’t eat grass and live, and most grasslands won’t raise anything else. Removing the meat of domestic animals from the human diet would remove a huge source of high-quality protein from human consumption. Can the world’s population, or even that of the U.S. sustain such a loss? Personally, I doubt it. The great irony of such a situation would be that empty grasslands would then fill up with wild grass-eating animals, just as was the case on the Great Plains before Indians had the horse. Plains Indians before the horse consisted in tiny, half-starved populations while billions of tons of high-quality food were largely unreachable to them. Wolves, cougars, bears and carrion-eaters would thrive in such a scenario, but humans would not. That makes little sense to me. Is it written somewhere that humans must starve so wolves and bears can live?

For whatever it’s worth, I think grass-eaters like cattle, sheep and goats are God’s gift to humans. He gave us nimble fingers, yes, so we could pluck fruit from trees. He gave us brains enough to figure out that if we planted and tended wheat grains, we would multiply them. He gave us ruminant animals to convert useless grass to protein, and the talent to figure out how best to utilize them.

I’m not Jewish, but I think there are some wisdoms in the Jewish dietary laws. For instance, to be kosher, the animal must be unconscious before it is killed. It has to be bled out immediately. It must not be mistreated or diseased.

In modern processing plants, that’s exactly the way they do it. I have been in processing plants where the only difference between non-kosher and kosher preparation is the prayers of the Rabbi and his stamp.

As Catholic Christians, we are not obliged to follow every dietary law the Jews received in the Bible. But when it comes to the treatment of animals, I see no reason why we shouldn’t follow them as closely as is practical, because some were given because they are humane. And the very existence of such rules demonstrates that God was not prepared to tell mankind not to eat animals at all. His instruction was to be healthy and humane about it.

Finally, there is not a single thing we can do to obtain food that does not have adverse consequences to some creature. If we plant grain, we kill animals of the earth in doing it, and exclude others from our fields. If we plant food-producing trees, we shade the ground and deprive some creatures of the use of what would otherwise grow there, and we do our best to keep other eaters out. If we plant vegetables, we kill creatures in doing it and exclude others from our vegetable gardens that might otherwise provide them with a diet. Most definitely if we use herbicides and pesticides, the carnage is enormous.
 
Animals are not sentient. They do not understanding or relate to suffering as we do. They understand pain as a biological alert to move away from something that can cause it harm and end its life - thus ending its chance to spread its genes, which is one of its primary biological drives.

With that said, I only buy free range/happy meat when it comes to animal products. For a couple of reasons that stand beyond religion.
  1. I grew up on a farm. Animals do better and produce better product when living in their natural state. ie. a pig running around in the muck, not being kept in some cage under fake lighting.
  2. I’m going to eat meat. I did not crawl to the top of the food chain to eat rabbit food. We are part of a vital biological process. I want my meat to be good quality, and good quality means it had a good life, running around outside in the sunshine with fresh grass under its hooves/trotters whatever. I have concerns about the methods of factory farming on both the health and quality of the animal. A sick animal could contaiminate the food chain. It could make people sick.
  3. Torturing animals is a percursor to homicidal behaviour. I’m not saying factory farmers are going to go out and be the next Ted Bundy, but its not ethical to put profits ahead of animal welfare. With that said, not everyone can afford free range meat, and there are less aggressive means to factory farm.
  4. Say the world goes vegetarian. All those feilds that sheep and cattle graze will be required to grow all the vegetable and wheat products for humans. We cannot live on those products alone as an entire society. We’ll need far more of those products to get the iron et cetera that we’d normally get from meat. We can sustain a portion of a vegetarian population, but if 6 billion people went vegan. All those cows and sheep would have to be culled to make way for our soy bean crops.
  5. We’re part of a delicate balance. We are designed to eat a wide range of foodstufs, thats why we’ve been so successful as a species. The Lion doesn’t feel pity for the zebra’s suffering as it tears its throat out. We are the only species that can feel empathy for others and other life forms. We should use that to care for our animals.
They’re making the biggest sacrifice for our benefit. We should respect them for that.

Furthermore, the whole “health” based argument, and we don’t need meat to live, that’s a nice idea, but generally has some big problems. What about those of us with wheat and soy allergies? There’s a lot of fruits and nuts I can’t touch. I’m allergic to fish [Makes Lenten Fridays kinda difficult to navigate]. I wouldn’t do well on an all vege diet. A lot of people wouldn’t. Meat is my source of protein. We evolved our big ole brains because of the ingestion of meat. You ever seen a Panda? They sit around all day eating plants just to get teh protien and nutrients they need. Its either a few kilos of silverbeet in one sitting, or a steak. Vege diets are just not feasible en masse. Plus honestly, I’ve never seen a healthy looking vegan, they always look sickly and skinny, unless they, like one of my friends, relies on pre-packaged garbage full of sugar and plant fats - massively overweight.

From a religious view, God gave us the world to conquer, but also to respect and care for. Treating animals poorly is disrepecting God’s gifts to us.

Plus, I love bacon. I’m not giving up bacon. Oink oink.
 
Here’s an interesting article on Catholic vegetarianism- curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=942752

A lot of Saints abstained from meat, some for penance, some because they saw eating meat as unnecessary, some for both reasons.

At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide what they feel about their choice of food. You can’t force others to change they need to see things for themselves. I don’t think people who eat meat are “bad” , and I don’t think God thinks that either.

It can be hard to live a vego diet in this society. One thing I simply don’t agree with is meat gluttony. As I previously posted, meat can be addictive.
 
This is why I do not think we can divorce the good for animals from what is good for Man. They are a resource. They are a different resource than plants or inanimate beings and require a greater degree of consideration. However, whenever we grant them too much consideration, we diminish our humanity as surely as granting them none.

So I say no, that cherishing them is contrary to Catholic teaching. LIke a sentimental inanimate object, we can invest them with too much value.
You’re reading into it wrong. Notice it says one can love animals… But it says not to love them as we do humans. Loving animals means not trying to increase suffering of animals.
Even the Pope says that unnecessary suffering of animals is not good. I hate how people think it’s funny to make jokes about animals suffering such as “I love my bacon oink oink” that’s really just quite disturbing. Yuck!!!
 
The difference is you keep adding the words health and survival. That is never found in Catholic teaching. I will reject that the only reason we can use animals is for health and survival. Man is not an animal and needs much more than survival. This is why God did not flinch from instituting animal sacrifice in the Mosaic Covenant.
Were not in the Old Testament times anymore… :rolleyes:
 
One more thing I have to add… It’s quite strange I believe to say dominion over the kingdom allows for the type of thing we see with obese people and companies who make such immense profits from selling meat at high prices in a very unhealthy way. Eg- McDonalds, KFC, Hungry Jacks.
My point is I’m not sure dominion means the sickness that has become meat gluttony. Meat, meat, meat… Some people only live off meat!! Seriously, think about it
A) do you seriously need that much meat?
B) did you know that diets high in meat are known to cause bowel and stomach cancer
C) did you know that a varied diet is both approved by God and a lot healthier for you?
D) have you eaten so much meat that you forget it was once a living animal loved and known by God?
Think about it.
 
However, whenever we grant them too much consideration, we diminish our humanity as surely as granting them none.
I don’t see how this follows – granting animals far more consideration simply brings them “up” to our level. It doesn’t require us to go “down” in moral status.
 
Man is not an animal and needs much more than survival.
From a biological pov, humans are animals. Moreover, we don’t need to consume animals for survival or to flourish – we can do “more than survival” without exploiting them as our resources.
 
Even the Pope says that unnecessary suffering of animals is not good.
I’d like to know what the Pope means by “necessary.” If the consumption of meat is not necessary for human survival and health, is it still necessary in the Pope’s understanding of the word?
 
My interpretation of what he said is that he says meat eating is not a sin, but doesn’t agree with what goes on in factory farms. Maybe he means that a moderate approach is necessary. But I know that the Catholic Church certainly does teach consideration for creation. We are a compassionate faith. Not one of satisfying desires and over indulging. That’s what I think. I don’t know, maybe I can expect now for people to post we have dominion to enjoy etc. But I certainly don’t agree.
 
My interpretation of what he said is that he says meat eating is not a sin, but doesn’t agree with what goes on in factory farms. Maybe he means that a moderate approach is necessary. But I know that the Catholic Church certainly does teach consideration for creation. We are a compassionate faith. Not one of satisfying desires and over indulging. That’s what I think. I don’t know, maybe I can expect now for people to post we have dominion to enjoy etc. But I certainly don’t agree.
If the Pope is against factory farms, which leads to the torture and death of over 8 billion animals per year, then he ought to be against most consumption of meat. But I’m unaware of any statement he made on the matter. Moreover, it doesn’t strike me as very compassionate to raise and kill animals just so we can satisfy our palates (as opposed to health and survival reasons). “Compassionate” slavery, perhaps.
 
If the Pope is against factory farms, which leads to the torture and death of over 8 billion animals per year, then he ought to be against most consumption of meat. But I’m unaware of any statement he made on the matter. Moreover, it doesn’t strike me as very compassionate to raise and kill animals just so we can satisfy our palates (as opposed to health and survival reasons). “Compassionate” slavery, perhaps.
Your whole outlook is subjective. One animal eating another is a neutral event and that includes humans. If you condemn humans from eating meat, why don’t you condemn a cat from eating a mouse? You are raising animals to the same level as a human therefore you should hold animals to the same standard. Ridiculous, Yeah that is what this whole thread is.
 
From what you say, it’s unclear whether you accept the Necessity Principle, that killing animals for food is immoral when doing so is unnecessary for human health and survival. If you think there are circumstances where killing animals is okay, even when doing so is unnecessary, then you reject the Necessity Principle, and that’s where you go wrong. Ignorance about animals may immunize an individual from culpability (so he has an excuse), but that wouldn’t enable his action to be morally permissible.
You make a good point. I would say I support the spirit of the “necessity principle” because I adhere to it in my personal life. But I don’t know if I can support it because it permits the act of killing in some circumstances, “such as human health or survival”.

In moral theology, if an act is wrong, it’s wrong in all circumstances with all intents. If an act is permitted, then it must have the correct circumstance and intent for the act to be permitted. Here, the necessity principal outlaws an act that is permitted based on circumstances and intent. But I think we may have to acknowledge the circumstances and intent of each situation for it to truely be upheld. (these circumstances & intents I will address in another post to you)

It sounds like the necessity principal recognizes the rights of human survival & health over that of an animals rights.

I enjoy this discussion. Really causing me to think about this issue. How do you interpret my statements above? Kindly.
 
Currently, in the U.S., where we have a constitutional republic, rights are created via the constitution, legislation, and common law. Once the push for animal rights has received sufficient public support, the property status of animals can start to chip away. Moreover, we humans are fallible, but there are no infallible beings running society – we have to do things by ourselves.
To summarize here. We agree some rights supersede other rights. Regarding animal rights, these rights are administered & recognized via humans only (b/c we are assuming God does not exist in our discussion at the moment).
  1. Do you accept that an animal right is a right that exists for every animal on the plant regardless if humans acknowledge it or not? It’s inherent in each animals existence.
  2. Is their a point that humans are to draw the line in the animal kingdom on animal rights? Such as insects, or worms, or mice, or cats, etc. Is there a non-human that won’t apply have inherent rights granted to them by just existing?
(I’m trying to lead to a discussion in which we have set assumptions that we both understand & this ties back to my original post on circumstances and intent.)

Kindly - James
 
My household eats meat; but at the same time, this passage always gives me pause:

"And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the air, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea; into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.”
 
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