The ethics of prostylizing as it relates to LDS methodologies

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XuDan

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This topic is born from a side discussion on another thread, below you will find the full context of the conversation.
iepuras said:
Ms. Doe, are you supportive of the LDS missionary program? Have you ever encouraged someone to serve an LDS mission or assisted in financing one? Have you served one yourself?

If so, served then you support accosting people in their homes and telling them their religious beliefs are wrong. And you support taking advantage of people who are lonely or having a hard time. I suggest reading stories of non-Mormons who live in Utah whose children are targeted for conversion and then shunned when it becomes clear there is no interest in doing so.

BTW, when I stopped attending the LDS church, I was harassed, insulted and offered fake friendship. I even had the stake president show up on my doorstep unannounced and uninvited. He then proceeded to ask my husband why he was allowing his wife to leave the LDS church and drag our children to hell. Heaven forbid a woman think for herself!

In general, people don’t like to have unannounced visitors or to be bothered in their homes regarding religious matters.
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jane_doe said:
Iepuras, I’m sorry you were treated badly by people when you left the LDS church. People were wrong to have treated you that way. Personally, if some guy would have asked me “why is your husband allowing you to do this” I would have thrown something at him! Have you had your name removed from the church rolls? If not I would recommend doing so to reduce visits.

Moving on for now—

Question for people here: when I was 13 years old, my Catholic friend asked me to come to her confirmation. In your opinion, was she wrong to have done so? Additional details (if relevant), she did not ask my parents about this (she did not know my parents), and yes she knew I was Mormon, and we were medium-level close friends (only met a few months previous). In your opinion, was she wrong to invite me to her confirmation?

I look forward to hearing what you guys think.

As to how the story played out: I was thrilled to be invited to her confirmation and joyfully attended. I was honored that she wanted to share something she felt was so precious with me. Yeah, we disagree about some things, but I my mind that was no reason to stop us from being friends or sharing deeply held beliefs. Over the years I attended many masses with her, Easter celebrations, youth groups, weddings, and Stations of the Cross 7 years in a row. I was honored to be in attendance.

She and I became best friends for many years, partially because of faith and the freedom we felt to talk about our whole selves with each other. Around her, I had no reason to hide my passion about God or my doubts when the road was rocky. She likewise shared with me and I learned a great deal about Catholicism and grew an appreciation of her faith.

Nowadays, when people approach me about faith-matters (wherever the venue) I am happy talk with them: to share my faith of God and learn about that person’s faith too. I find it to be a great experience and thank that person for their time.

Though, admittedly there are points when someone will want to talk to me and I’m not in the mood to chat (either too busy or just feeling anti-social). In which case I don’t answer the door, or say “no thank you” before leaving. People are still trying to be nice and share their love of God, so there’s no reason to get mad just because I happen to be in rush right then.
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twopekinguys said:
The quick and speedy answer to your question has to do with intent.

If she invited you to her confirmation with the intent of getting you to convert, then that would be wrong. I

If she invited you with the intent in simply sharing in the event, with no intent of getting you to convert, that would be fine.

I’m guessing you weren’t “love bombed” after the confirmation. Where I, was mobbed after attending a sacrament meeting…😛

See the difference?
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XuDan said:
Context of your relationship is important here - first you are not strangers, this changes the dynamics a lot. Secondly, it is a youth asking another youth, as opposed to an adult asking an youth. Third, you are semi close friends. In this context is is totally appropriate that she ask you to come - so long as she is not doing so with the pretense or intentions to convert or proselytize to you.

Obviously at that age you would need your parents permission.

Now let’s counter with a situation that happened this past Saturday in my neighborhood. My daughters were approached by a woman who would now be (recently “called” into the position) their third hour teacher. I know the woman in passing. She approached my daughters and told them that she misses them at church and asked them if they want to go to church again. I poked my head out of the garage because I heard someone talking and interrupted. First off it is inappropriate for an adult to engage a child like that without parental consent especially after they have been told numerous times to leave us alone. Secondly, we have not been a part of the LDS church for 7 years, that kind of soliciting to minors and harassment of a family is entirely inappropriate. So much for the 11th article of faith - I do not feel as though my right to worship according to the dictates of my own conscious is being respected.

All that said, we are quite off topic. As to avoid a complete thread-jacking perhaps we could create a dedicated thread to this, in the context of the ethics of proselytizing and the LDS church? I for one would find it to be an interesting conversation and would love to hear your perspectives.
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jane_doe said:
That might be a good idea, if you want to open up (I don’t know how to start new threads on CAF).
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Thanks for opening this up XuDan!

I’m going to divide my reply up into two parts: addressing your specific story and then general guidelines for sharing the gospel with others.

Addressing XuDan’s story—

XuDan, LDS folks do not remove your name from the rolls unless you ask them to (hoping that people will come back). Your children are on the class rolls because you have not had them removed. The lady who has been asked to teach the class (let’s call her “Sue”), does not know what your history/belief with the Mormon church, only that XuDan Jr is in her class. Sue happens across XuDan Jr when Jr’s playing on the sidewalk (or something like that, I don’t know specifics).

Is it unethical for Sue to ask Jr if she’d like to come to class? Obviously to actually come to class she’d need XuDan Sr’s permission. I don’t think such is unethical because 1) if Jr doesn’t want to come to class a simple “no” answers it, 2) regardless of what Jr wants, Sr’s got to be okay with it and what Sr says goes, 3) if this is something truly terrible Sr probably has educated Jr to say “no” regardless.

XuDan, I’m guessing you’d have a different opinion on this matter. How would you have handled the situation in the teacher’s shoes? Would you prefer no adult talk to a minor about anything? Or specifically about religious matters?

Side note: XuDan, I really would recommend getting your name taken off the rolls. It’s easily done with a letter and would really help you out with unwanted visits.
 
General guidelines for discussing God with others—
  1. Be respectful of everyone’s belief’s, even if you think they’re complete bunk.
  2. Listen to others and try to understand how they think/believe/feel.
  3. Sharing the Gospel is done best with a conversation: share in a conversation, not from a soapbox.
  4. If all you’re after for is winning an argument, then you’re never going to win anything important.
  5. Always be genuine in your dealings with people.
  6. Sometimes you’ll get someone to adopt the view you see as being correct. That can be a great feeling, but don’t grow frustrated if that doesn’t happen. People are entitled to their own views. And sometimes God has unexpected paths to lead someone to Him.
  7. “No thank you” means No.
  8. Look to a person’s heart: if they mean well, try not to take offense.
  9. For minors, nothing is done without parental permission.
More suggestions?
 
jane_doe said:
Thanks for opening this up XuDan!

I’m going to divide my reply up into two parts: addressing your specific story and then general guidelines for sharing the gospel with others.

Addressing XuDan’s story—

XuDan, LDS folks do not remove your name from the rolls unless you ask them to (hoping that people will come back). Your children are on the class rolls because you have not had them removed. The lady who has been asked to teach the class (let’s call her “Sue”), does not know what your history/belief with the Mormon church, only that XuDan Jr is in her class. Sue happens across XuDan Jr when Jr’s playing on the sidewalk (or something like that, I don’t know specifics).

Is it unethical for Sue to ask Jr if she’d like to come to class? Obviously to actually come to class she’d need XuDan Sr’s permission. I don’t think such is unethical because 1) if Jr doesn’t want to come to class a simple “no” answers it, 2) regardless of what Jr wants, Sr’s got to be okay with it and what Sr says goes, 3) if this is something truly terrible Sr probably has educated Jr to say “no” regardless.

XuDan, I’m guessing you’d have a different opinion on this matter. How would you have handled the situation in the teacher’s shoes? Would you prefer no adult talk to a minor about anything? Or specifically about religious matters?

Side note: XuDan, I really would recommend getting your name taken off the rolls. It’s easily done with a letter and would really help you out with unwanted visits.
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Except that I have submitted a letter for a name removal and was told that it was done, that was 7 years ago. Is it ethical to pursue me and my family with such doggedness even after I have made my position clear via letter and verbally? I tell the same missionaries every week not to come back, that I’m not interested. But every Saturday they are knocking on my door. I get new ones rotating in, and I keep telling them they aren’t welcome. Yet they won’t discontinue. I won’t be mean and rude to them because I don’t believe that is a Christian means of dealing with it, but they have obviously not respected me, my requests, or my resolve that I will not return to the LDS Church.

I’m sure that once I move next year, the problems will cease to exist, but I feel sorry for whoever buys the house as they may get weekly knocks and calls from people looking to “save” me. :rolleyes:
 
XuDan,

Your name was removed and you’re still getting so many visits? That is very odd. Like the teacher shouldn’t even know you were members of the church. They shouldn’t be doing that… And I am sorry you’re being bothered so much (people can be such numbskulls sometime).

Ways to possibly help the situation:
  1. The missionaries. Tell them “Thank you for your time, but I do not wish to be contacted ever again. Please cross my address out of your area book right now”, and physically watch them delete your information from their area book. (The area book is the book in which they keep track of people’s names and addresses).
You could also put up a sign explicitly saying “No Mormon Church Visit”, and if they continue to visit, say that you’ll have to call the cops if they keep coming. Be firm and explicit (you can do both while being polite).
  1. As to the local congregation: I don’t know how they even know you used to be a member. Maybe somehow your name didn’t actually get removed? There are occasionally paperwork slip ups…
Next time you get a visitor from the ward, tell them you are not a member and ask how they got your address. Find out how, and stop that flow of information. That’ll be more effective than telling every individual member to bug off.
 
jane_doe said:
XuDan, I’m guessing you’d have a different opinion on this matter. How would you have handled the situation in the teacher’s shoes?
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The proper thing for the teacher to do would be ask if she could talk to mom or dad.
jane_doe said:
Would you prefer no adult talk to a minor about anything? Or specifically about religious matters?
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An adult who is basically nothing more than a stranger should not be asking children to attend anything. And implying with “we miss you at church” that they are actually known to the children is deceptive.

Not once has any parent of my children’s friends ever asked my kids to attend their churches classes for children, and certainly not someone they’ve never met. Honestly if a person they’d never met said something like that to my kids they’d be back in the house quick as a wink, and the person would be given the title “creeper”. My kids have attended social events at the Baptist, Lutheran and Pentecostal churches over the years and in every case the parents contacted me before presenting it to my kids. Even fellow Catholics have let me know ahead of time if my children would be attending any church event when my kids would be at their house. So in my experience both as a parent and a child the kind of interaction described by the teacher is viewed as inappropriate. And no I don’t think adults should be talking to kids about religion unless invited to do so by the parents.
 
zaffiroborant said:
The proper thing for the teacher to do would be ask if she could talk to mom or dad.

An adult who is basically nothing more than a stranger should not be asking children to attend anything. And implying with “we miss you at church” that they are actually known to the children is deceptive.

Not once has any parent of my children’s friends ever asked my kids to attend their churches classes for children, and certainly not someone they’ve never met. Honestly if a person they’d never met said something like that to my kids they’d be back in the house quick as a wink, and the person would be given the title “creeper”. My kids have attended social events at the Baptist, Lutheran and Pentecostal churches over the years and in every case the parents contacted me before presenting it to my kids. Even fellow Catholics have let me know ahead of time if my children would be attending any church event when my kids would be at their house. So in my experience both as a parent and a child the kind of interaction described by the teacher is viewed as inappropriate. And no I don’t think adults should be talking to kids about religion unless invited to do so by the parents.
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Precisely my feelings on the subject. I have been afforded the respect from others to ask if they can talk to my girls about their church activities and events before they ever brought it up with my girls. But bringing it up with them first only serves to cause dissent in the family if it is something they already got exited about and I say “no” for whatever reason. It is manipulative and divisive. It really stuck in my craw.
 
Unfortunately, Xu’s story is not unique. We hear it many times.

I remember relating the story of my father and the missionaries in a post long ago. They lived in a rural area, with a long lane leading to the house. There were “No Trespassing” and “No Soliciting” signs clearly visible at the entry to the property.

For some reason, a set of missionaries ignored the sign, and approached my father outside the house. He politely told them no, pointed the way out, and asked them not to return. Not long after that, they showed up at the house again (not a good thing to do), and approached my father again.

He walked them all the way down the lane, not saying a word, stopped in front of the signs, pointed to them, and made them read the signs out loud.

He walked away, and they never came back. Lucky for them, because one thing my father did not like was repeating himself. 😃

No means no, and no trespassing means no trespassing.
 
jane_doe said:
Thanks for opening this up XuDan!

I’m going to divide my reply up into two parts: addressing your specific story and then general guidelines for sharing the gospel with others.

Addressing XuDan’s story—

XuDan, LDS folks do not remove your name from the rolls unless you ask them to (hoping that people will come back). Your children are on the class rolls because you have not had them removed. The lady who has been asked to teach the class (let’s call her “Sue”), does not know what your history/belief with the Mormon church, only that XuDan Jr is in her class. Sue happens across XuDan Jr when Jr’s playing on the sidewalk (or something like that, I don’t know specifics).

Is it unethical for Sue to ask Jr if she’d like to come to class? Obviously to actually come to class she’d need XuDan Sr’s permission. I don’t think such is unethical because 1) if Jr doesn’t want to come to class a simple “no” answers it, 2) regardless of what Jr wants, Sr’s got to be okay with it and what Sr says goes, 3) if this is something truly terrible Sr probably has educated Jr to say “no” regardless.

XuDan, I’m guessing you’d have a different opinion on this matter. How would you have handled the situation in the teacher’s shoes? Would you prefer no adult talk to a minor about anything? Or specifically about religious matters?

Side note: XuDan, I really would recommend getting your name taken off the rolls. It’s easily done with a letter and would really help you out with unwanted visits.
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In this example, it is extremely inappropriate for an adult to accost a minor in this manner. Think about it this way, if it was someone from down the street that you don’t know all that well, do you think it would be appropriate for this person to talk to your child behind your back inviting her to an activity?

Given the fact that Sue is an adult and Jr is a minor, puts Sue in a position of power and puts Jr at a disadvantage. Many children are taught to respect adults and have a hard time saying no. This is why it is inappropriate even if Jr wants to go. It is always inappropriate for an adult to talk to a minor behind the backs of the parents.
 
XuDan said:
I guess it does, My apologies for not including them. I can’t edit the OP now and include them. 😊
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No worries! Thanks for starting a new thread as I was out of pocket at Vespers earlier this evening and we do not live close to our parish.🙂
 
iepuras said:
I

Given the fact that Sue is an adult and Jr is a minor, puts Sue in a position of power and puts Jr at a disadvantage. Many children are taught to respect adults and have a hard time saying no. This is why it is inappropriate even if Jr wants to go. It is always inappropriate for an adult to talk to a minor behind the backs of the parents.
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And is is also why the “we miss you at church” is a deceptive manipulation of the children.
 
Jane, my treatment upon leaving has been relatively tame compared to others. I purposefully didn’t try to make any waves when I left. My husband and I just wanted to quietly go away and be left alone. Alas, it was not to be.

I didn’t want to resign initially because my family was pretty upset as it was, especially my parents. You see, many ex-Mormons do not want to resign because they are still in the closet with family and they do not want their parents to find out. Bishops are not known for keeping things like this confidential.

When the stake president showed up, which was our first visit btw, we wrote resignation letters as soon as we fed our kids. You see, the stake president knocked on our door just as we were trying to feed our kids and put them down for naps. He thought it was more important that we talk to him than meet our children’s needs.

It was after we resigned that things started to heat up. There was a couple we were friends with from the ward who decided they wanted to keep hanging out with us even though we resigned. We went out on a few double dates. After 6 months, they knew that I was serious about becoming Catholic. That is when I was invited to attend the General Womens meeting with this “friend”. I actually thought a lot about it. I considered doing a church event trade - suffer through to meeting if my friend came to Mass. I decided against it because my parents were in the same stake and I didn’t want to upset them. Funny thing happened after I turned this friend down. She disappeared, well, for over a year. She showed up at my house just before last Christmas to give me something. It was all very strange.

My children were also targeted when they were ages 3 and 4. They were invited to a Primary activity almost a year after we resigned. Because my children were never baptized Mormon, I question whether their names were ever removed even though we included them in the resignation letter.
 
iepuras said:
My children were also targeted when they were ages 3 and 4. They were invited to a Primary activity almost a year after we resigned. Because my children were never baptized Mormon, I question whether their names were ever removed even though we included them in the resignation letter.
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RebeccaJ has a child who was never baptized and she’s been contacted by the LDS church for years. Hopefully your children won’t be followed the way hers was.
 
zaffiroborant said:
RebeccaJ has a child who was never baptized and she’s been contacted by the LDS church for years. Hopefully your children won’t be followed the way hers was.
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That is what I am worried about. I hope the missionaries don’t show up when my oldest turns 9. I really don’t want to have to visit my husband in jail. And I am only half joking. 😦
 
iepuras said:
That is what I am worried about. I hope the missionaries don’t show up when my oldest turns 9. I really don’t want to have to visit my husband in jail. And I am only half joking. 😦
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Reading on NOM about how local leadership is pushing members to “hasten the work” and give names of prospects then add to that the webpage with comprehensive search methods for wayward members I will be very surprised if you don’t see them show up before and surely at 9 and beyond. But that is dependent on your family, from what I understand they are the most likely candidates for narcing you out to the church in in tracking down of members. So if you are a convert to LDS (I can’t remember your story, sorry I should) then your children may be safe otherwise they will be tracked down as long as family members are keen on turning in their location.
 
jane_doe said:
XuDan,

Your name was removed and you’re still getting so many visits? That is very odd. Like the teacher shouldn’t even know you were members of the church. They shouldn’t be doing that… And I am sorry you’re being bothered so much (people can be such numbskulls sometime).

Ways to possibly help the situation:
  1. The missionaries. Tell them “Thank you for your time, but I do not wish to be contacted ever again. Please cross my address out of your area book right now”, and physically watch them delete your information from their area book. (The area book is the book in which they keep track of people’s names and addresses).
You could also put up a sign explicitly saying “No Mormon Church Visit”, and if they continue to visit, say that you’ll have to call the cops if they keep coming. Be firm and explicit (you can do both while being polite).
  1. As to the local congregation: I don’t know how they even know you used to be a member. Maybe somehow your name didn’t actually get removed? There are occasionally paperwork slip ups…
Next time you get a visitor from the ward, tell them you are not a member and ask how they got your address. Find out how, and stop that flow of information. That’ll be more effective than telling every individual member to bug off.
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On paper, the rules may be written somewhere (I don’t know) but in practice,every ward is different. My daughter is a never-Mormon but the ward treats her as though she is an inactive.
 
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