The ethics of prostylizing as it relates to LDS methodologies

[zaffiroborant]

Evangelizing can be done with words proselytizing can not.

 

[Stevenrushing]

Based on your definitions, I would say that many mormons proselytize, and many evangelize. I would say the same about Baptists or Catholics or any other religion. Your definition seems to hinge on intent, and some have the intent of sharing something very special to them with their friends, and some have the intent of “saving” their friends, and some of the intent (sadly) of being able to tell their church friends that they are the ones who got such-and-such’s family baptized. You find all these intents in different people of all faiths.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Regarding the 3 BoMs given to my daughter, the third I only learned of recently. My daughter while moving, said she had three, and I asked where the third came from. She says she doesn’t remember. I had no idea she was given it or by whom.

Anyway, I don’t want to give the impression my interaction with LDS is all bad. My entire family are LDS and many coworkers too. For the most part, 99% of the time, things are normal. Just once in a while the normal is interrupted with the "“time to fix you” events.

When my daughter was growing up I fiercely protected her from the fixers, while at the same time teaching her to respect the religious beliefs of her family and friends. She is probably more tolerant of Mormon fixers than I, which is something I admire about her.

 

[lax16]

Based on your definitions, I would say that many mormons proselytize, and many evangelize. I would say the same about Baptists or Catholics or any other religion. Your definition seems to hinge on intent, and some have the intent of sharing something very special to them with their friends, and some have the intent of “saving” their friends, and some of the intent (sadly) of being able to tell their church friends that they are the ones who got such-and-such’s family baptized. You find all these intents in different people of all faiths.

You make some very good points.

I just don’t know of any Catholics who proselytize. In fact, we are often criticized for it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Based on your definitions, I would say that many mormons proselytize, and many evangelize. I would say the same about Baptists or Catholics or any other religion. Your definition seems to hinge on intent, and some have the intent of sharing something very special to them with their friends, and some have the intent of “saving” their friends, and some of the intent (sadly) of being able to tell their church friends that they are the ones who got such-and-such’s family baptized. You find all these intents in different people of all faiths.

In my experience, all LDS turn on the proselytizing at some point. I read a LDS story on the Internet recently, where a LDS person was careful to not overtly proselytize, all in the same effort, to manipulate. Manipulation is the key thing that LDS do, in my experience. That is what I find unethical and immoral, and what I am always on guard for around LDS.

 

[Stevenrushing]

Manipulate is a very subjective and negative word. What specific behavior do you mean?

 

[iepuras]

Reading on NOM about how local leadership is pushing members to “hasten the work” and give names of prospects then add to that the webpage with comprehensive search methods for wayward members I will be very surprised if you don’t see them show up before and surely at 9 and beyond. But that is dependent on your family, from what I understand they are the most likely candidates for narcing you out to the church in in tracking down of members. So if you are a convert to LDS (I can’t remember your story, sorry I should) then your children may be safe otherwise they will be tracked down as long as family members are keen on turning in their location.

I am born in the covenant and the only one in my family of origin to leave.

My parents were teaching my young children Mormonism behind our backs so we are currently estranged from them. They crossed boundaries they knew should not have been crossed. I doubt my siblings would try anything. I have been respectful of their beliefs and not pushed why I left onto them. I also believe they are afraid of knowing why. They know that I do not do things lightly. They also know that if they tried anything with my kids, I would probably cease to be so respectful.

My children were blessed so they are children of record. I expect to fight a battle every once and a while. I’m guessing around key dates like expected ages for baptism and priesthood ordination. sigh

 

[XuDan]

These are the definitions I work with.

Proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
Evangelize: convert or seek to convert (someone) to Christianity.

One can proselytize a faithful Christian from one denomination to another. One cannot Evangelize a Christian as they are already a Christian.

All Christian Churches evangelize, few proselytize. The LDS church engages in both equally, well, unequally depending on how Christianize a country is. Where I live it is definitely more proselytizing. Unsolicited proselytizing is IMHO unethical. It’s different if a class is held and an open invitation for people to come and hear is made. It is something totally different to knock on doors and presume to tell them why they are wrong and that the denomination you represent is the only correct one. In my case, pursue people who are adamant in their desire to be left alone, it is not only unethical but also iniquitous - as are the tactics employed.

 

[XuDan]

Manipulate is a very subjective and negative word. What specific behavior do you mean?

Without getting super specific and side tracking the thread to an off topic conversation: Equivocation via various tactics, usually most easily seen by their constant arbitrary redefinition of terms and outward perceptions of church history. AKA mormon-speak. A very recent example of this can be found in this thread where the topic of Revelation is discussed. In my 15 years of experience within the LDS church this behavior was common place and very frustrating to me. I always thought I was alone in this observation, however, since leaving the LDS church and speaking to others who have also left I have come to realize that it is a common observation by those who have left and those outside of the denomination. It is a tactic commonly perceived as manipulative and/or dishonest.

 

[jane_doe]

Unfortunately, my experience is that Mormons do not invite non-Mormon children to their events to start beautiful friendships.

Do you live in Utah?

No, I do not live in Utah. At points I have been forced to visit Utah, and do not like it at all.

I relish in diversity: >95% of my friends are non-Mormon, and I welcome hearing their different views and sharing mine. Sharing my faith is just part of sharing me (and same for my friends).

Nothing turns me off more than being forced to hide who you are: whether it’s hiding that I love video games, that I trip on my words, how I love my family, or how I feel about God. This is me.

 

[lax16]

No, I do not live in Utah. At points I have been forced to visit Utah, and do not like it at all.

I relish in diversity: >95% of my friends are non-Mormon, and I welcome hearing their different views and sharing mine. Sharing my faith is just part of sharing me (and same for my friends).

Nothing turns me off more than being forced to hide who you are: whether it’s hiding that I love video games, that I trip on my words, how I love my family, or how I feel about God. This is me.

That makes sense then. I have lived in two other states and had a great variety of friends from different religious and ethnic groups and we are very respectful of each other’s differences.

Utah, on the other hand, is another story…

 

[jane_doe]

That makes sense then. I have lived in two other states and had a great variety of friends from different religious and ethnic groups and we are very respectful of each other’s differences.

Utah, on the other hand, is another story…

Like I said, I don’t like Utah one bit! Thankfully though, it’s only like 15% of Mormons that live in Utah and I am happy not to be one of them.

The culture of Mormon people does vary place to place, something most any LDS person would tell you.

 

[lax16]

Like I said, I don’t like Utah one bit! Thankfully though, it’s only like 15% of Mormons that live in Utah and I am happy not to be one of them.

The culture of Mormon people does vary place to place, something most any LDS person would tell you.

We hung out with Mormons and Evangelicals when we were a younger couple in Nevada.

In Cali, we knew each other’s religions but it was not a topic of conversation. You did your religion “thing” with fellow church members and the friend “thing” with others.

This Utah “thing” is a total drag.

I didn’t know that only 15 % of Mormons live in Utah. Interesting.

 

[jane_doe]

We hung out with Mormons and Evangelicals when we were a younger couple in Nevada.

In Cali, we knew each other’s religions but it was not a topic of conversation. You did your religion “thing” with fellow church members and the friend “thing” with others.

This Utah “thing” is a total drag.

I didn’t know that only 15 % of Mormons live in Utah. Interesting.

Actually, like ~55% of Mormons are international nowadays. Even General Conference talks are given over the pulpit in multiple languages.

One very large aspect of the Mormon faith is that it’s not just a “thing” you do for an hour on Sunday, and then go live godlessly the rest of the 99.4% of the time. It’s supposed to (but doesn’t always succeed) to foster a relationship with Christ that penetrates the very core of you life. That’s one reason, for me, to shut up about God is to shut up a critical part of the foundation of who I am. For example: my relationship with Jesus teaches me to be kind and respectful of all others (even sinners and jerks) because of their worth to God.

 

[SteveVH]

One very large aspect of the Mormon faith is that it’s not just a “thing” you do for an hour on Sunday, and then go live godlessly the rest of the 99.4% of the time.

Do you think there are faith traditions that promote such behavior?

It’s supposed to (but doesn’t always succeed) to foster a relationship with Christ that penetrates the very core of you life. That’s one reason, for me, to shut up about God is to shut up a critical part of the foundation of who I am. For example: my relationship with Jesus teaches me to be kind and respectful of all others (even sinners and jerks) because of their worth to God.

Is someone criticizing you for expressing your faith? We should all express our faith at all times by how we live - we should let the light of Christ shine through us. That’s an entirely different thing from proselytizing. Better to draw in through attraction.

Peace.

Steve

 

[jane_doe]

Do you think there are faith traditions that promote such behavior?

I’ve met a variety of people in many faith traditions whom display a whole spectrum of devotion (including Mormons). For instance, I have a Baptist relative whom is a phenomenal person, totally devoted to God. And then I know another Baptist whom only goes to church cause her parents force it and she spends the entire time fantasizing about her illicit boyfriend. There is variety of devotion in all faiths.

I feel like the above is totally stating the obvious…

 

[SteveVH]

I’ve met a variety of people in many faith traditions whom display a whole spectrum of devotion (including Mormons). For instance, I have a Baptist relative whom is a phenomenal person, totally devoted to God. And then I know another Baptist whom only goes to church cause her parents force it and she spends the entire time fantasizing about her illicit boyfriend. There is variety of devotion in all faiths.

I feel like the above is totally stating the obvious…

The manner in which you conveyed your thought seemed to imply that people of other faiths do live godlessly most (99.4%) of the time, but not in the LDS church.

Originally Posted by jane_doe
One very large aspect of the Mormon faith is that it’s not just a “thing” you do for an hour on Sunday, and then go live godlessly the rest of the 99.4% of the time.

Sorry for my confusion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Manipulate is a very subjective and negative word. What specific behavior do you mean?

I mean you never can tell if someone who is LDS is really interested in you as a person, or just faking interest to put in a plug for Mormonism. Manipulating conversations, people, circumstances. I’ve experienced them all.

ma·nip·u·la·tive
məˈnipyəˌlādiv,məˈnipyələdiv/
adjective
1.
characterized by unscrupulous control of a situation or person.

…

"I know one BYU graduate who is a great example. He points out that there is a mirror quality to conversation. If we talk about the weather, people respond by talking about the weather. If we talk about sports, they respond by talking about sports. This friend says he asks people he meets about their school and listens intently. After they respond by asking him about his school, he tells them about BYU and then shares his testimony of the gospel. Then, in a positive way, he offers to let them learn more from the missionaries. "

…

In this example, the LDS church is holding up a college student as being a good example, while what I see, is a guy trying to manipulate a conversation towards taking about his religion so he can offer to send missionaries over.

…

lds.org/new-era/2015/02/how-to-be-a-member-missionary?lang=eng

BTW, this is similar to how my daughter came into possession of one BoM. When working a high school job, a LDS coworker of the same age struck up a conversation about religion. My daughter didn’t want to be rude and tell her to bug off. I guess not being rude was taken as a sign of interest. She came home from work with a BoM and within a week, missionaries were at my door asking for my daughter by name. This coworker wouldn’t let it go and my daughter eventually quit the job to get away from her. The missionaries, tried to argue with me, the parent of a minor, about my daughter’s interest in their message! I wasn’t like my daughter and was willing to be rude so they would get the idea to scram and don’t come back.

PPS: the LDS church needs to teach their missionaries, that a parent doesn’t view young men, who they’ve never met, and are obviously not peers from school, to not show up at a door asking the mom of a teenage daughter by name. It was creepy.

 

[XuDan]

One very large aspect of the Mormon faith is that it’s not just a “thing” you do for an hour on Sunday, and then go live godlessly the rest of the 99.4% of the time. It’s supposed to (but doesn’t always succeed) to foster a relationship with Christ that penetrates the very core of you life.

That is not unique to the LDS - every Christian denomination would and do get behind this sentiment I think we can all agree that the very nature of Christianity is a holistic transformation of a persons life, not just something to act as for an hour each weekend.

 

[XuDan]

I mean you never can tell if someone who is LDS is really interested in you as a person, or just faking interest to put in a plug for Mormonism. Manipulating conversations, people, circumstances. I’ve experienced them all.

ma·nip·u·la·tive
məˈnipyəˌlādiv,məˈnipyələdiv/
adjective
1.
characterized by unscrupulous control of a situation or person.

…

"I know one BYU graduate who is a great example. He points out that there is a mirror quality to conversation. If we talk about the weather, people respond by talking about the weather. If we talk about sports, they respond by talking about sports. This friend says he asks people he meets about their school and listens intently. After they respond by asking him about his school, he tells them about BYU and then shares his testimony of the gospel. Then, in a positive way, he offers to let them learn more from the missionaries. "

…

In this example, the LDS church is holding up a college student as being a good example, while what I see, is a guy trying to manipulate a conversation towards taking about his religion so he can offer to send missionaries over.

…

lds.org/new-era/2015/02/how-to-be-a-member-missionary?lang=eng

BTW, this is similar to how my daughter came into possession of one BoM. When working a high school job, a LDS coworker of the same age struck up a conversation about religion. My daughter didn’t want to be rude and tell her to bug off. I guess not being rude was taken as a sign of interest. She came home from work with a BoM and within a week, missionaries were at my door asking for my daughter by name. This coworker wouldn’t let it go and my daughter eventually quit the job to get away from her. The missionaries, tried to argue with me, the parent of a minor, about my daughter’s interest in their message! I wasn’t like my daughter and was willing to be rude so they would get the idea to scram and don’t come back.

PPS: the LDS church needs to teach their missionaries, that a parent doesn’t view young men, who they’ve never met, and are obviously not peers from school, to not show up at a door asking the mom of a teenage daughter by name. It was creepy.

Other examples that I see often by young women - dating a non-member with the intent to convert him. This actually happened to a close friend of mine while I was a member. He got caught up in the romance and emotionalism of it all that he would have done anything for her. I repeat, for her. Despite warnings to slow down, he converted (because that was a condition to progress the relationship) and then married her a year later in the Temple. He was manipulated. Where is he now? Completely inactive - wanting nothing to do with organized religion as he sees them as deceptive and manipulative, divorced (she cheated on him), paying child support for two kids, and trust issues.

Sadly - I have heard people relate similar stories, which means it is not a unique happening.

To the example of what happened to your daughter - well meaning over aggressive members are all to common. The most appropriate action that could have been taken by this member would have been to send your daughter home with a call card (so she could call the missionaries on her own) and followed up with it only once. Further in her over aggressiveness male missionaries should not have been sent, they should have sent “sister” missionaries. All that said, sending missionaries and then harassing her at work about it is IMO, in context, a form of bullying. Which is a means of manipulation.