The Eucharist - Consubstantiation? Symbolic? I don't think so

[Teflon93]

The Jews knew their Scripture.

Exodus 16:

“1”: And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

“2”: And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:

“3”: And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

“4”: Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

“5”: And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

“6”: And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:

“7”: And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the LORD; for that he heareth your murmurings against the LORD: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?

“8”: And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD.

“9”: And Moses spake unto Aaron, Say unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, Come near before the LORD: for he hath heard your murmurings.

“10”: And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

“11”: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

“12”: I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.

“13”: And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

“14”: And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.

“15”: And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.

“16”: This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

“17”: And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.

“18”: And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.

“19”: And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

“20”: Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

“21”: And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.

“22”: And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.

“23”: And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

“24”: And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

“25”: And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

“26”: Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

“27”: And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

“28”: And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

“29”: See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

“30”: So the people rested on the seventh day.

“31”: And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

“32”: And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

“33”: And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations.

“34”: As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.

“35”: And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

 

[Teflon93]

and

Numbers 11:

“1”: And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

“2”: And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.

“3”: And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the LORD burnt among them.

“4”: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?

“5”: We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick:

“6”: But our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

“7”: And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.

“8”: And the people went about, and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar, and baked it in pans, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil.

“9”: And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

“10”: Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.

“11”: And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?

“12”: Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

“13”: Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.

“14”: I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.

“15”: And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness.

“16”: And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.

“17”: And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

“18”: And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.

“19”: Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days;

“20”: But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?

“21”: And Moses said, The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month.

“22”: Shall the flocks and the herds be slain for them, to suffice them? or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to suffice them?

“23”: And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD’s hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

“24”: And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.

“25”: And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

“26”: But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

“27”: And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

“28”: And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

“29”: And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’s people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

“30”: And Moses gat him into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

“31”: And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day’s journey on this side, and as it were a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.

“32”: And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.

“33”: And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

“34”: And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

“35”: And the people journeyed from Kibroth-hattaavah unto Hazeroth; and abode at Hazeroth.

 

[NotWorthy]

RightlyDivide (I STILL don’t know what that name means…),

For arguments sake, let’s pretend I’m an idiot (it shouldn’t be much of a stress, eh?).

I’d still like to know what is self-explanatory about John 6:63?

 

[grannymh]

Teflon93;4457945:

You know very well that I am not talking about the Catholic view of what happens to the Eucharist. You know that because I have said that over 5 times on this thread. You know very well that the symbolic interpretation is not going to be on “Ask an Apologist”.
My question has absolutely nothing to do with YOUR view of what happens to the host in YOUR theology or in YOUR Mass. You know that I am referring to what is happening to a piece of bread in a SYMBOLIC view. A Protestant service. Not a Catholic service. You refuse to answer that question because you do not like the answer.
I am not talking about the host in the Eucharist. Once again, let me explain. We hold a symbolic view of the bread we use. You also believe what we have is just a piece of bread. You do not believe that we can turn the bread into anything…but bread. So it is bread. Based upon that fact, the bread IN A SYMBOLIC view, has two fates. Sewer or trash can. That is a fact. You refuse to say why the sewer is a better place for a symbolic piece of bread.
Your avoidance and games are noted.

Hello Rightlydivide,

I’m glad to meet you.

I’m new to the site and am trying to sort through this thread which is especially important to me because some of the info in it is related to my theory, not quite proven, that our Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is very important if Catholics are going to help get our society out of its mess.

My apology, I have not completely read all the previous posts but I want you to know that I understand what you are saying above.

In addition, I would like to try to understand what you are saying from another viewpoint. So could we skip John, chapter 6, even though it is my favorite, and go straight to YOUR symbolic view?

To begin–There are so many wonderful ways that the historical Jesus expressed His love for us–ways that are recorded by the ever-succinct reporters Mathew, Mark, Luke & John. Sometimes, I like to think about the message without paying too much attention to the words.

“Listening” to His message often brings me peace. That is why I know in my heart that Jesus would not leave any of us orphans.

Could it be that your use of bread as “symbolic” is a way that
reminds you of the presence of Jesus? As a way of getting connected with Him? As a way of knowing that you are not left
alone. As a way of remembering what He taught?

If you already expressed the above in a post I missed then let my repitition be an affirmation. I am a Catholic who never underestimates the power of Jesus to be present here and now.
Thus, I feel deeply that it is essential that all of us try to connect with Him as often as we can.

Regarding the two fates, sewer or trash can. Again, I apologize because I know I skimmed past this discussion. Nonetheless, it seems to me that how you handle the bread is your business.

I might offer suggestions on how to treat it reverently just because it is a symbol of something very precious. I would not suggest that you worship it like Catholics worship the Eucharist because it has already been stipulated that it is bread used as a symbol and nothing beyond.

I hope you say the “Our Father” in your church. When I represented the pastoral care department in our “secular” hospital, I loved saying both the protestant version and the Catholic version according to the patient’s religion. This is what I meant when I talked above about listenting to the message.

Blessings,
grannymh

.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide;4459945:

Oh, please. You mentioned the sewer in several places in context of the Eucharist, which is something we get around here all the time.

You still haven’t answered the question regarding what you would think if I threw a Bible in the trash.

So who’s avoidance and games will you note down in that case?

One question-(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Now on to the topic.

Teflon has claimed that I was talking about the Eucharist. Teflon is still claiming that is what I was talking about.
You tell me. Catholic, Protestant, was I not clear? I will answer things honestly or to the best of my ability but do not say I am saying something I am not!

Post 10-Teflon
And what do these people do with the symbolic leftover bread and the symbolic leftover wine?

Post 11-RD
I would assume that it would probably be grape juice and some form a wafer or cracker…but I do not know…I do not know. For those who hold the symbolic view, what is important is what the act inspires us to remember, not the elements. Concern about what happens to the objects used shows your starting presupposition.

Post 12-Teflon
I’ll tell you what they do, having seen them do it in the Pentecostal Church of God I used to attend, and in the Presbyterian community I used to attend.
They throw them in the garbage.

post 17-RD
The Bible does not record what happened to the leftover bread or wine. It is not the bread or wine that is important in a symbolic view. As such, I find it odd that anyone would have a problem with that. I fail to see why someone would be concerned with what is not eaten in a symbolic view. In a symbolic view, what is eaten eventually ends up in the sewer system. I fail to see why what was not eaten would be more important that what is eaten. In reality, what is not eaten appears to have a better fate…

Post 23 -RD
Bread is…bread.
I fail to understand why a person who does not believe it is symbolic cares what we do with our symbolic food.
On a crass note, why is pooping something out better than throwing it away?

Post 29-RD
. Bread for us does not have a lick of meaning. It is symbolic. So once again, why is pooping out the symbol better than throwing it away because I only see two options here.
We could hire someone with a very large appetite, in fact I can think of him, we could pay him to finish the meal for people. That somehow is better? You do not get symbolism. The bread and juice are not what is important to us. Whether you agree or not, you really seem to have a hard time understanding the other side. I understand why your side spends so much time wiping the cup and so forth because he think it is something. We do not.

Post 30-RD We do not believe the “accidents” change into something it is not. So whats it going to be frig, trash, or sewer?

Post 31-Teflon
The Eucharist does not go stale.
It also does not get tossed in the trash—it is the Body and Blood of our Lord!
As has been noted, since the earliest times it has been defended to the death.

Post 33-RD
I am not talking about your Eucharist. I am talking about my Lords Supper.

Post 36-RD
Let us try it this way. Do you believe that the Protestant bread is anything but bread? This is the first Catholic I have ever encountered who cares what happens to symbolic bread. What would you like us to do with it?

Post 38-Teflon
It is not consecrated, Protestant ministers not possessing valid Holy Orders. It is bread.
But the reason my wife and I had to leave a “dedication ceremony” at our friend’s Pentecostal Church of God service when they made to hand out the bread and grape juice—which the pastor actually referred to as the Eucharist, believe it or not----is that it was a mockery of Communion. Unintentional, surely, but a mockery all the same.

Post 39-RD
I respect your views that you believe the bread at your Eucharist is the actual blood and body and thus you would treat it a certain way.
What Teflon cannot answer is why a symbol is better off in the sewer than the trash? We do not believe the accidents of our bread changes.
It is nothing more than bread to us. His view is different.
I am sorry the act of chunking symbolic bread causes Catholics so much consternation. I hope Teflon is the exception.

Okay. How much clearer can I be Teflon? You insist on playing this game. I have been clear that I am not talking about the Eucharist. You started this by being criticial of how Protestants handle their symbolic bread. That is why this started. But you want to change it. Make it something it is not. I cannot and will not defend my views of 6:63 which I am happy to do, even though Tech is losing to Oklahoma and I am bummed out, but you either really stink at reading comprehension or something not nice. Which is it???

 

[Rightlydivide]

grannymh;4460226=Rightlydivide;4459945]

Hello Rightlydivide,

I’m glad to meet you.

Welcome and likewise.

I’m new to the site and am trying to sort through this thread which is especially important to me because some of the info in it is related to my theory, not quite proven, that our Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is very important if Catholics are going to help get our society out of its mess.

I agree that society is a mess. We disagree on the solution.

My apology, I have not completely read all the previous posts but I want you to know that I understand what you are saying above.

Thank you

In addition, I would like to try to understand what you are saying from another viewpoint. So could we skip John, chapter 6, even though it is my favorite, and go straight to YOUR symbolic view?

Yes, if you are going to be nice about it I have no choice!

To begin–There are so many wonderful ways that the historical Jesus expressed His love for us–ways that are recorded by the ever-succinct reporters Mathew, Mark, Luke & John. Sometimes, I like to think about the message without paying too much attention to the words.

“Listening” to His message often brings me peace. That is why I know in my heart that Jesus would not leave any of us orphans.

Ok

Could it be that your use of bread as “symbolic” is a way that
reminds you of the presence of Jesus? As a way of getting connected with Him? As a way of knowing that you are not left
alone. As a way of remembering what He taught?

We focus on Christ. The meal helps us to do that.

If you already expressed the above in a post I missed then let my repitition be an affirmation. I am a Catholic who never underestimates the power of Jesus to be present here and now.
Thus, I feel deeply that it is essential that all of us try to connect with Him as often as we can.

I do not doubt that Jesus can be present in your Eucharist if I thought that is what the Bible taught. Just to be clear of my view.
Yes it is essential.

Regarding the two fates, sewer or trash can. Again, I apologize because I know I skimmed past this discussion. Nonetheless, it seems to me that how you handle the bread is your business.

Thank you.

I might offer suggestions on how to treat it reverently just because it is a symbol of something very precious. I would not suggest that you worship it like Catholics worship the Eucharist because it has already been stipulated that it is bread used as a symbol and nothing beyond.

I find the whole of our meal reverent. Paul is clear on how we are to conduct ourselves.

I hope you say the “Our Father” in your church. When I represented the pastoral care department in our “secular” hospital, I loved saying both the protestant version and the Catholic version according to the patient’s religion. This is what I meant when I talked above about listenting to the message.

Blessings,
grannymh

God bless. Thank you for your comments.

.

 

[teachccd]

RIghtlyDivide, Since the Bible is primarily paper and ink doesn’t it just symbolize God’s Word?? It is not literally God’s Word but merely a symbol that reminds us of what God said, right? So when I’m done with one sitting couldn’t I just throw it away? It’s just paper and ink…right? Can’t we do that with all things. I mean things are things, right? They’re not spiritual because that could not include matter…right? So, can I throw away my Bible or eat a page and “poop” it out??? Utilizing your thought process, there should be no harm in this…right??

For all of you Catholics out there listen up…we have something coming our way…teachccd

 

[grannymh]

Teflon93;4459974:

One question-(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Now on to the topic.

To Rghtlydivide,

Somehow, I got to Additional Options and read your comments to my Post 84. Your response is appreciated.

What I liked is that you said some things that got me thinking. I am extremely curious so I need to ask you a couple of questions concerning this topic. However, I am an old granny and on my way to bed and I will be gone most of tomorrow. Maybe Monday or Tuesday I can get back to you, if you don’t mind. I hope I can find this thread again. I do like the back and forth on it.

In the meantime, both of us will focus on Christ.

Blessings,
grannymh

 

[Rightlydivide]

RIghtlyDivide, Since the Bible is primarily paper and ink doesn’t it just symbolize God’s Word?? It is not literally God’s Word but merely a symbol that reminds us of what God said, right? So when I’m done with one sitting couldn’t I just throw it away? It’s just paper and ink…right? Can’t we do that with all things. I mean things are things, right? They’re not spiritual because that could not include matter…right? So, can I throw away my Bible or eat a page and “poop” it out??? Utilizing your thought process, there should be no harm in this…right??

For all of you Catholics out there listen up…we have something coming our way…teachccd

On a practical level, in dealing with symbolic bread, used at a Protestant service, there are three possible destinations; albeit one, a frig, is temporary before said bread meets its final fate.
A Bible, can be used over and over again.
It is interesting to watch the concern Catholics have with bread and grape juice. I thought Teflon would be the exception. I suppose not.
Now to answer your question. We believe that the Lords supper is symbolic. We believe the act of what it represents is important. We share a meal at my church, which is what we believe the Bible is showing. Your starting presuppositions are radically different.
I do not believe that we should destroy Bibles because they can be used to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. If I take the remainder of my loaf of bread, and go to Quick Trip to find teenagers walking out; I do not think my load of bread is going to pack that much of a punch in winning them to Christ.
Now to answer the question, if someone threw a Bible away in front of me. I would assume it was an act of hostility, perhaps they knew I was a Christian. I would ask them what about Christianity upset them. I would not confront them or angryily grab the Bible out of the trash. I would rather try to save a soul than a Bible.
Does that answer your question?

 

[NotWorthy]

One question-(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

OK, thanks.

You’ll pardon my ignorance?
NAB

Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.

New Jerusalem:

… rightly handling the word of Truth

“Rightly Dividing”, in and of itself, just seems so “anti-unity”, so you’ll understand my angst at the name?

 

[Rightlydivide]

OK, thanks.

You’ll pardon my ignorance?
NAB New Jerusalem: “Rightly Dividing”, in and of itself, just seems so “anti-unity”, so you’ll understand my angst at the name?

No problem. I used to include it in my signature.

 

[jean8]

So Jesus was saying that his flesh profiteth nothing?

St Paul didn’t think so:

1 Corinthians 11:

23": For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

“24”: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

“25”: After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

“26”: For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

“27”: Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

“28”: But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

“29”: For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

“30”: For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

But surely there could be no trouble approaching mere bread and wine unworthily, much less grape juice, right?

Luthreans today believe in the Real Presense, but nothing is changed… We also receive both the body and blood of Christ. Why don’t you?

God bless,
jean8

 

[NotWorthy]

Luthreans today believe in the Real Presense, but nothing is changed… We also receive both the body and blood of Christ. Why don’t you?

God bless,
jean8

I’m sorry, but who said we don’t receive the Body and Blood? (Wow, is this deja’ vu? Do I smell “Old Scholar” lingering around?)

The Church teaches that we receive His Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

Or are you referring to the claim that you receive HIs Body (only) in the bread and His Blood (only) in the wine or grape juice? I hope that’s not the case.

 

[Randy_Carson]

(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I’m curious about this…

Infant Baptism - The Lutheran pastor believes that it is scriptural, the Baptist pastor does not. Both of them study, but they come to opposite conclusions. They cannot both be rightly dividing the Word of God. Who is right?

Real Presence - The Lutheran pastor believes that it is scriptural, the Baptist pastor does not. Both of them study, but they come to opposite conclusions. They cannot both be rightly dividing the Word of God. Who is right?

Ordination of Women - The Anglican pastor believes that it is acceptable, the Fundamentalist pastor does not. Both of them study, but they come to opposite conclusions. They cannot both be rightly dividing the Word of God. Who is right?

How do you Protestants handle the glaring contradictions in and conflicts over theological questions within the “one” body of Christ?

 

[teachccd]

On a practical level, in dealing with symbolic bread, used at a Protestant service, there are three possible destinations; albeit one, a frig, is temporary before said bread meets its final fate.
A Bible, can be used over and over again.
It is interesting to watch the concern Catholics have with bread and grape juice. I thought Teflon would be the exception. I suppose not.
Now to answer your question. We believe that the Lords supper is symbolic. We believe the act of what it represents is important. We share a meal at my church, which is what we believe the Bible is showing. Your starting presuppositions are radically different.
I do not believe that we should destroy Bibles because they can be used to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. If I take the remainder of my loaf of bread, and go to Quick Trip to find teenagers walking out; I do not think my load of bread is going to pack that much of a punch in winning them to Christ.
Now to answer the question, if someone threw a Bible away in front of me. I would assume it was an act of hostility, perhaps they knew I was a Christian. I would ask them what about Christianity upset them. I would not confront them or angryily grab the Bible out of the trash. I would rather try to save a soul than a Bible.
Does that answer your question?

Since you do not believe Christ when He took bread and said, “This is my body”, nothing that I say will make any sense to you. Jesus’ words of “This IS my body” don’t make sense to you, so what can I say? Two thousand years of a Christian Church following those words don’t make sense to you. All the writings of the Early Church Fathers (disciples of the Apostles) don’t make sense to you. Jesus in Luke 24 vanishes in the Road to Emmaus after He breaks the bread because He is present in the bread. That makes no sense to you. In the Eucharist I see Jesus, you see bread. How could we ever see clearly through such differently colored glasses?

Before there was ever even a New Testament there was a fully functioning and living Church. And that Church proclaimed (kerygma) that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist. The bread and wine cease to be bread and wine and become the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. This was being lived in the Church before one New Testament author (Paul) even picked up his pen. Your refusal to look back at early Christianity or to simply ignore what was and what continues to be is a shame because you are not being fair to yourself.

Scripture was written post resurrection and acknowledged as canonical centuries past the resurrection. The Bible ( that word is not in Scripture) never says in the Old Testament how many or which books even belong in the New Testament. This was acknowledged by the same Church that was living the Gospel. Inspiration was acknowledged because the Church recognized itself in the writings and not the other way around. We, as Catholics, do not accept that our Church was founded on a Book but rather that the Book is an expression of the Church, the incarnate Body of Christ living through us.

It never ceases to amaze me( and has made me a most fervent Catholic) how Protestants can ignore this most fundamental understanding of the Book that they base their entire faith upon. I’ve heard so many quotes from Scripture “attacking” the Catholic Church when it is from that very Church that the Scriptures were compiled and maintained. The New Testament was not written by Christ. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) Then there were followers of the Word.(The Way) Then those followers who preached and lived the Word put it to the words that we read still today.

So, do with what you wish with your bread. It’s not about bread. It’s about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and what He commanded us to do. And for 2000 years we’ve been doing it and will continue to take bread, bless it, break it and give it to the multitudes saying, “This IS my Body”. Why? Because Jesus said those words and I believe Him. And so do the millions who continue to line up for the bread of life that Jesus gave us as His body and blood since the first Mass in the upper room…teachccd

Oh and no, you did not answer my question and will never until you quit seeing “bread” going in the trash or the sewer…

 

[Rightlydivide]

I’m curious about this…

Infant Baptism - The Lutheran pastor believes that it is scriptural, the Baptist pastor does not. Both of them study, but they come to opposite conclusions. They cannot both be rightly dividing the Word of God. Who is right?

Real Presence - The Lutheran pastor believes that it is scriptural, the Baptist pastor does not. Both of them study, but they come to opposite conclusions. They cannot both be rightly dividing the Word of God. Who is right?

Ordination of Women - The Anglican pastor believes that it is acceptable, the Fundamentalist pastor does not. Both of them study, but they come to opposite conclusions. They cannot both be rightly dividing the Word of God. Who is right?

How do you Protestants handle the glaring contradictions in and conflicts over theological questions within the “one” body of Christ?

I had the same problem when I tried to figure out
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
How was right?
The Orthodox?
The Oriental Orthodox?
The Polish National Catholic?
The Catholics?
Any of the hundreds of groups all claiming to have the truth from Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture:
ind-movement.org/links_denominations.html
All of these groups…how do Catholics handle all of these groups…oh thats right because you think you are right you do not worry too much about them…or they just QUITE do not understand the traditions and scriptures as well as YOU do…
People were dividing over Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture for a long time before Protestants. In fact, you guys started this whole division thing but like to blame the ones that came after you. It is remarkable how you can ignore the schisms and pretend that you almost completely agree…on the essentials right…that you guys defined?

 

[Teflon93]

Teflon93;4459974:

One question-(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Now on to the topic.

Teflon has claimed that I was talking about the Eucharist. Teflon is still claiming that is what I was talking about.
You tell me. Catholic, Protestant, was I not clear? I will answer things honestly or to the best of my ability but do not say I am saying something I am not!

Post 11-RD
I would assume that it would probably be grape juice and some form a wafer or cracker…but I do not know…I do not know. For those who hold the symbolic view, what is important is what the act inspires us to remember, not the elements. Concern about what happens to the objects used shows your starting presupposition.

post 17-RD
The Bible does not record what happened to the leftover bread or wine. It is not the bread or wine that is important in a symbolic view. As such, I find it odd that anyone would have a problem with that. I fail to see why someone would be concerned with what is not eaten in a symbolic view. In a symbolic view, what is eaten eventually ends up in the sewer system. I fail to see why what was not eaten would be more important that what is eaten. In reality, what is not eaten appears to have a better fate…

Post 23 -RD
Bread is…bread.
I fail to understand why a person who does not believe it is symbolic cares what we do with our symbolic food.
On a crass note, why is pooping something out better than throwing it away?

Post 29-RD
. Bread for us does not have a lick of meaning. It is symbolic. So once again, why is pooping out the symbol better than throwing it away because I only see two options here.
We could hire someone with a very large appetite, in fact I can think of him, we could pay him to finish the meal for people. That somehow is better? You do not get symbolism. The bread and juice are not what is important to us. Whether you agree or not, you really seem to have a hard time understanding the other side. I understand why your side spends so much time wiping the cup and so forth because he think it is something. We do not.

Post 30-RD We do not believe the “accidents” change into something it is not. So whats it going to be frig, trash, or sewer?

Post 33-RD
I am not talking about your Eucharist. I am talking about my Lords Supper.

Post 36-RD
Let us try it this way. Do you believe that the Protestant bread is anything but bread? This is the first Catholic I have ever encountered who cares what happens to symbolic bread. What would you like us to do with it?

Post 39-RD
I respect your views that you believe the bread at your Eucharist is the actual blood and body and thus you would treat it a certain way.
What Teflon cannot answer is why a symbol is better off in the sewer than the trash? We do not believe the accidents of our bread changes.
It is nothing more than bread to us. His view is different.
I am sorry the act of chunking symbolic bread causes Catholics so much consternation. I hope Teflon is the exception.

Okay. How much clearer can I be Teflon? You insist on playing this game. I have been clear that I am not talking about the Eucharist. You started this by being criticial of how Protestants handle their symbolic bread. That is why this started. But you want to change it. Make it something it is not. I cannot and will not defend my views of 6:63 which I am happy to do, even though Tech is losing to Oklahoma and I am bummed out, but you either really stink at reading comprehension or something not nice. Which is it???

Sorry, just finished beating the wife.

Did you answer my question yet?

What would you think if you saw me throwing a Bible in the trash?

 

[Teflon93]

So, do with what you wish with your bread. It’s not about bread. It’s about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and what He commanded us to do. And for 2000 years we’ve been doing it and will continue to take bread, bless it, break it and give it to the multitudes saying, “This IS my Body”. Why? Because Jesus said those words and I believe Him. And so do the millions who continue to line up for the bread of life that Jesus gave us as His body and blood since the first Mass in the upper room…teachccd

Oh and no, you did not answer my question and will never until you quit seeing “bread” going in the trash or the sewer…

Ding ding ding!

What I continue to attempt to relay to the ever-evasive RightlyDivide is that symbols of things, even if not the thing in reality, carry meaning and reflect one’s attitude toward that which it symbolizes.

For example, the American flag is a piece of cloth. Reach out and touch it—it feels like any other piece of cloth. And yet it is so much more. It represents our country, its values, its history, and most importantly to veterans and patriots, the sacrifice of many men and women who have been borne into the grave underneath that flag.

Now it is always a challenge to explain just why the patriot cannot see that piece of cloth stomped, mutilated, or treated disrespectfully to someone for whom the flag has no meaning. They won’t get it in the original context, so you have to substitute something they do care about (say, their Che Guevara t-shirt) if they’re to have any chance at all of getting it.

The Eucharist is the most powerful, holy, and glorious thing in the world. In its accidents, to the physical senses, it is the most mundane—bread and wine. But for those who see with eyes of faith, as St Paul commands, it has unmatched beauty and power. It is Christ risen and the physical embodiment of God’s grace.

Those Protestants who mimic the Lord’s Supper with their infinite and unjustified variations almost always do so reading from the very Scripture they reject. They repeat Christ’s commands—“This is my body”, “This is my blood”—solemnly taking hold of the bread (or crackers or biscuits) and wine (or juice) as though they believed it to be so. And then they toss it in the trash and go on about their business.

It’s exactly the same as though one brought in a flag, pledged allegiance to it, and tossed it in the garbage.

Or if one took a Bible, which in its accidents is nothing more than any other book—ink on paper surrounded by leather—held it high aloft during a service, only to toss it in the trash as though it were a discarded Harry Potter volume at the end.

Now, RightlyDivide ran away from the question I repeatedly asked because the answer was clear and the implication undeniable.

If I tossed a Bible in the garbage, many of you would reflexively think, “How can he claim to be a Christian and do such a thing?”

Which is precisely how this Catholic feels when you treat that which you mock-consecrate as though it were unwanted Thanksgiving leftovers.

 

[grannymh]

People were dividing over Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture for a long time before Protestants". part of quote from post by Rightlydivide.

Good afternoon, Rightlydivide,

I have a few minutes between commitments and of course couldn’t resist reading this thread. Now if you would change the word dividing to debating, you would be historically correct. This period along with Luther and friends are my two favorites when it comes to old history of the Catholic church.

Just wanted to share that today, my Church honored Christ the King. Glad there was the decision to keep the focus on Christ.

Scripture was Matthew 25: 31-46. Liked the line that asked the question “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?”

If I may tie this quote into the topic of this thread, those who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, see Christ in the validly consecrated Host. Others use reverent symbols or reverent actions to help them connect with Christ. And still others use the beauty of Alaska to find God and maybe, depending on their knowedge, to adore Christ as the King of all the Universe, including humans. (I hung out in Alaska with my daughter and her friends-- the experience of this beauty strengthened my belief in a Creator.)

As I said in an earlier post, I do have questions and really need some quiet time to formulate them. While I have seen ads for books about "fundamentalism’, I’ve never read them. It will be o.k. if you laugh…

I haven’t figured out how to put quotes at the bottom of posts, so I will just end with…

Let’s keep our focus on Christ.

Blessings,
grannymh

 

[liberalcatholic]

*The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. * (John 1:14)

We believe that the body of Jesus is from the Spirit. If not, we are doing nothing more than practicing a symbolic form of cannibalism. But Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, so we are not merely eating symbolic bread, but the bread of life, the real actual body and blood of Jesus. Yes, this is hard to grasp, and is why we must do so with a clean conscience, not relying on our own wisdom but faith in Jesus Christ our Lord who conquered death and ascended into heaven recieving a glorified body in which those who believe in him will also recieve.