B
brownjt
Guest
Thanks again for your references. There is a differnce between “symbolically present” and “spritiually present”.Once again, and know I harp on this a lot, but please read your history, especially the early church fathers and how the apostles passed the priesthood down to and through them.
Protestant by definition means “protest”. The Church was in turmoil over something we Americans don’t have-- the Church and Politics were thoroughly mixed in Christian Europe.
The corruption (by men’s lust for power and money) was trying to be “reformed” by Martin Luther. He kept what he thought was true, but in breaking from the Roman Church, he broke the line and began a splintering process that still continues today.
The “mainline” Protestant churches, such as Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, kept much of the Catholic trappings, like a hierarchy (“bishops”), stained glass windows, architecture, a pulpit, --art and music, which I think connect us to God in a wonderful way–etc.
The groups that splintered from them, such as Puritans, Congregational, Quakers, etc wanted to get rid of all the “trappings that stunk of Rome” and made churches that were plain to the point of being baren. They kept a steeple, but Quakers have no ministers, some have no music or art at all.
Further splintering in America led to what we have now, megachurches with One Minister (no hierarchy) no one to oversee what any sub-minister is doing, and people so hungry for Jesus that they wave their hands in the air trying to locate his Spirirt, like satelite dishes aiming for a signal.
They don’t believe in the Pope, but they start their own churches and consequently each has a Pope, of sorts.
MY POINT is that some churches have a watered down version of Catholcism that can be traced back to these splits over dogma, faith, liturgical rituals, rites, prayers, and mostly Tradition, which was when they threw out the baby with the bathwater, because we Catholics have a Sacred Tradition that dates back to the Jews, and Jesus was a Jew.
We have both Scripture and Tradition through which the Holy Spirit guides us.
Removing tradition, and “rituals” is not a good idea. As humans, we connect with one another through tradition and we like rituals in the sense that we know what will happen next. We generally prefer order over chaos. ( My Protestant friend who complained about our rituals had a “traditional wedding”. I just looked at her sideways and said, “That sounds like a tradition and a ritual”. She asked for “Here Comes the Bride” and I sadly informed her that the song is from the opera Lohengrin and was based on a pagan wedding.)
The splinters of splinters have preaching as the main focus of their services. The problem with that is the preacher gets all the glory, and disagreements, ego problems and so forth crop up.
As for corruption, I think televangelists who can reach many people, easily fall into corruption through the same old things, Money and Power.
Historically, of course, we have the Counter Reformation, when Rome answered Luther et al, and saints, such as St Francis deSales who did extensive “pamphleting” and thus brought many Presbyterians back into the fold.
CHRIST IS LITERALLY, not symbolically, PRESENT in our churches. Our liturgy keeps us orderly. We don’t shout Amen or start speaking in tongues when moved to do so. CHRIST IS STILL PHYSICALLY PRESENT on earth, as His Father sent him.
When a Protestant corners me and asks “Have you taken Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?” I aswer “Yes! In His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, through the Eucharist. You can’t get more personal than that!”
I again will refer you to some books which may help. A Concise History of the Catholic Church by Thomas Bokenkotter is a good place to start for history.
Hilaire Belloc’s series on Church History is excellent.
No Price Too High, by Deacon Alex Jones is a wonderful testimony of a man searching and learning and bringing his congregation into the Catholic Church, and what a struggle he had!
Scott Hahn’s testimony Rome Sweet Home is truly ‘sweet’, but his deep faith and intellect, his intense suffering along with his wife, Kimberly, is absolutely one of the best books on my list.
In fact, I would recommend the latter two first before you delve into the deeper histories.
God bless you on your Faith Journeys! God bless all of us as we become closer to Him, through his Son and the Holy Spirit.
In the protestant churches of the world - in fact, anywhere where two or more are gathered in His name, I believe He is there is the form of the Advocate or Holy Spirit. The protestant churches I have attended Jesus is “spiritually present”. Not in the flesh and blood as well at the Eucharist as Catholics define it. Yes, Jesus may not be there in the “fullness” that Catholics experience at their masses, but He is there. Do we protestants really understand this - probably not. Maybe experiencing the Eucharist as John 6 expresses it and as Jesus commands it , would alleviate the needs to 'wave the hands" and “feel” his presence. I believe that the we protestants - in this way - are not getting the “fullness of the faith” and what Jesus commanded in John 6. It is not the only reason, but one of the reasons why I seek to convert to the Catholic faith. God Bless You for the signposts you put along my path!