The Eucharist in Lutheran and other protestant religions?

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And many Lutherans (and Anglicans, among others) wouldn’t even take issue with universal jurisdiction, so long as he’d admit he wielded it out of human necessity for good order and not by any divine right.
Right, because Christ gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven to everyone who can open and read a King James Bible. Did I mention Our Lord also bestowed the divine right of judicial and legislative binding and loosing to all Protestant pastors? 😉
 
To dichotomize and cherry-pick what you like and do not like about the papal office and to claim you do not “have a disinclination for the papal office” seems like a mixture of indifferentism and relativism.
"To dichotomize and cherry-pick what you like and do not like about [INSERT ANYTHING] and to claim you do not “have a disinclination for [SAID THING]seems like a mixture of indifferentism and relativism."

Uh… or it’s, like, uh… you know… having an opinion? Look, just because another’s views don’t line up precisely with your own on one point doesn’t make them your opponent on everything else. Or as one wise person once put it: “he that is not against you, is for you”
 
Uh… or it’s, like, uh… you know… having an opinion?
Exactly! Having an “opinion” on a revealed truth is akin to, as mentioned, relativism and indifferentism.
Look, just because another’s views don’t line up precisely with your own on one point doesn’t make them your opponent on everything else
Agreed! I am curious as to why you would presume otherwise.
 
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Right, because Christ gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven to everyone who can open and read a King James Bible. Did I mention Our Lord also bestowed the divine right of judicial and legislative binding and loosing to all Protestant pastors?
Here’s where our communions have differing beliefs that have not yet been reconciled. Rome uniquely claims that the keys belong only to the Pope in Rome. All the rest of Christendom says otherwise. Lutherans believe the keys were either given to Peter and shared with the church, in general, or given to the church, in general, with Peter acting as proxy. Either way, the keys belong to the church, not solely to Peter, and certainly not a bishop claiming to be his sole successor (not to mention the multiple Sees claiming that heritage). The Office of the Keys is one entrusted to those who are called and ordained.

Also - I’m not sure who you’re insulting with the KJV dig? Lutherans like me use a wide array of translations, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I try to exclusively use DR on here, as it’s a Roman Catholic site.
 
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JonNC:
The clear meaning of the words is that the "this " refers to what He held in His hands
Exactly, hence, “This IS my Body”. He held His Body in His hands.

“Christ held Himself in His hands when He gave His Body to His disciples saying: ‘This is My Body.’ No one partakes of this Flesh before he has adored it.” - Saint Augustine
At what point? When He said it, was He not holding bread?
This is the problem with metaphysical constructs regarding the Eucharist, and frankly, that of SA.
CHrist held bread in His and and said this is my body. Instead of arguing over when it was and wasn’t bread, accept what He says. He says, while holding bread, this is my body.
Amen.
From there, who cares about substance and accidents, or in with under?
 
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JonNC:
I din’t even have a disinclination for the papal office, but only for the claim of universal jurisdiction.
Papal supremacy is the papal office. To dichotomize and cherry-pick what you like and do not like about the papal office and to claim you do not “have a disinclination for the papal office” seems like a mixture of indifferentism and relativism.
It wasn’t in the early Church. Nicaea canon 6.
No cherry picking there. No universal jurisdiction there. And guess what? No Great Schism there, either.
 
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He says, while holding bread, this is my body.
At the point of consecration He is not holding bread, but only His Body. This is exactly why He said, “This is my Body” and not, “This is my bread and body”, or, “This is my bread-body”, or “This bread is my body”.
 
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JonNC:
He says, while holding bread, this is my body.
At the point of consecration He is not holding bread, but only His Body. This is exactly why He said, “This is my Body” and not, “This is my bread and body”, or, “This is my bread-body”, or “This bread is my body”.
I don’t think anyone is arguing either of the last two quotes. I don’t think a Lutheran would disagree.

And btw, He also did not say,"this is my body and the accidents fo bread
 
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Either way, the keys belong to the church, not solely to Peter, and certainly not a bishop claiming to be his sole successor (not to mention the multiple Sees claiming that heritage)
That’s most interesting. Can you show me from Scripture alone where Our Lord gives anyone else but Saint Peter the keys? Not a shared binding and loosing among the Apostles, but the actual bestowing of the keys.
 
Take a step back and look at the conversation.

YOU threw back an olive branch when posters noted that most of what the papacy does is good.
YOU threw back another olive branch when a poster noted that he had only one objection to the papacy.
YOU threw back yet another olive branch when a poster further noted that the objection is even smaller for many.
YOU reasoned that one had to accept the papal office in its entirety.
YOU did not leave the space for any sort of historical discussion about the actual topic. And for their unwillingness to submit entirely;
YOU accused others of cherry-picking.
YOU accused others of engaging in relativism.
YOU accused others of indifferentism.

But the fact is, other users are simply stating views that have been part of the church since the beginning. Don’t pretend you hold some triumphal position with which no one can argue. Historical facts will not play in your favor with regard to Papal Supremacy. Even Roman Catholic scholars concede that it’s something that was “revealed” or “more clearly defined” in later years, not from the start of the church.
 
Historical facts will not play in your favor with regard to Papal Supremacy
All the significant heresies of the early centuries of the Church arose and flourished in the East. Often these heresies were espoused by the emperor of the East. At one time or another, and in some instances frequently, the Eastern patriarchal sees were occupied by heretics. Easterners were adept at creating heresies, but lacked the dominical authority to resolve them. In every single instance, it was the papacy that had to come to the rescue.

In the first century, Pope Clement put an end to schism in the Church at Corinth. He exacted obedience under penalty of serious sin, claiming to speak with the authority of Jesus Christ. In the second century, when Pope Victor threatened to excommunicate a large portion of the Church in the East, many protested the threat but none questioned the Pope’s authority, and all finally yielded to it.
 
Historical facts will not play in your favor with regard to Papal Supremacy
According to the fourth-century historian Eusebius, Patriarch Dionysius of Antioch (died ca. 264) wrote to Pope Xystus II asking about rebaptism. He asked for advice from the Pope, he said, “for fear I am acting mistakenly.” Later the Patriarch wrote to Xystus’s successor, Pope Dionysius, informing him that the Sabellian heresy had appeared in his patriarchate. (This trinitarian heresy so emphasized the unity of the Godhead as to deny a distinction of divine Persons.) The Pope also wrote to two of his Egyptian bishops, emphasizing our Lord’s humanity. Certain persons in the see of Alexandria (perhaps those two bishops) reported to the Pope that Patriarch Dionysius was tending toward heretical views.

The Pope wrote the Egyptian bishops a letter detailing the errors of Sabellianism and what was later called Arianism and condemning them. He designated the term homoousios (“of the same substance”) as an appropriate safeguard of orthodox Christology. Note that sixty and more years before the Council of Nicaea, Pope Dionysius anticipated the Council’s work in condemning Arianism and in selecting the appropriate theological concept for the Church’s Christology.

The Pope wrote to Patriarch Dionysius, told him of the allegations against his orthodoxy, and asked for an explanation. Eastern Orthodox apologists tell us the Pope had no jurisdiction over other bishops. Here the Pope is calling on the second most important bishop of the Christian world to defend his orthodoxy. Did Patriarch Dionysius deny the Pope’s authority to bring him on the carpet, so to speak? Not at all. He welcomed the Pope’s inquiry and quickly wrote an explanation which the Pope accepted as satisfactory.

In the third century Paul of Samosata, bishop of Antioch, denied the personhood of the Logos, saying that only the divine Wisdom had become incarnate. In 264 the bishops of Syria, Palestine, and Asia Minor convened in synod and condemned Paul’s heresy. Because he persisted in his errors, a second and then a third synod met, and finally he was deposed and excommunicated. Domnus was named as replacement, but Paul refused to vacate the episcopal residence. The bishops appealed to Emperor Aurelian, who was in Antioch at that time. It would have been simple for the Emperor to settle the matter then and there and order Domnus installed as patriarch of Antioch. Instead, he asked Rome to decide who should be patriarch. Rome chose Domnus, and he was installed.

Note that this was a controversy among Eastern bishops, and it involved the rightful occupant of the third most important see in the Church, an Eastern see. Why did Aurelian turn to Rome for a decision? Why would he have the controversy settled in a way that would be a staggering affront to the Eastern bishops and to their authority . . . unless they recognized the pope’s universal jurisdiction. That they did. None objected. The matter was settled. " Roma locuta est" (Rome has spoken).
 
John 20:21-23 - Literally a dozen other people there.
2 Corinthians 2:10-11- Was Paul lying to the Corinthians? Remember, he was doing this sort of thing not just without Peter’s approval, but often in direct opposition to the Circumcision Party!

Meanwhile, it would seem that the Office of the Keys is not something to be hoarded or lorded over others (“Haha! We have the Pope! You don’t have the Keys! Na, na na, boo-boo!”):

But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.
 
That’s an impressive wall of text you copied-and-pasted there.

Unfortunately, none of it confirms Papal Supremacy. At best, it acknowledges a tenuous sort of Papal Primacy.
 
That’s most interesting. Can you show me from Scripture alone where Our Lord gives anyone else but Saint Peter the keys? Not a shared binding and loosing among the Apostles, but the actual bestowing of the keys.
Can you show me where He didn’t ? I mean, the EO believes every bishop has the power of the keys. That is as likely as universal jurisdiction, and in fact more likely from scripture and Tradition.
 
John 20:21-23 - Literally a dozen other people there.

2 Corinthians 2:10-11- Was Paul lying to the Corinthians? Remember, he was doing this sort of thing not just without Peter’s approval, but often in direct opposition to the Circumcision Party!
So Our Lord gave to keys to the kingdom of heaven to whom in those passages?
Meanwhile, it would seem that the Office of the Keys is not something to be hoarded or lorded over others (“Haha! We have the Pope! You don’t have the Keys! Na, na na, boo-boo!”)
Maybe that’s your own seeming, personal envy of realizing that the keys belong to Saint Peter and his successors alone…perhaps? Because you keep presuming to know my intentions by putting words in my mouth.
 
Can you show me where He didn’t ?
That’s untenable and illogical. When Our Lord specifically gives the keys to Saint Peter alone (singular ‘you’ in the Greek) in Matthew 16, and for you to object to that by asking to whom He did not give the keys to, therefore anyone not mentioned could have the keys, is a non-sequitur argument.
I mean, the EO believes every bishop has the power of the keys. That is as likely as universal jurisdiction, and in fact more likely from scripture and Tradition
Yeah, I know, it’s referred to as Eastern conciliarism. Did it ever occur to you as to why the EO Church has never been able to successfully convene an Ecumenical Council in one thousand years, but yet the Catholic Church under papal supremacy has convened many since the Great Schism?
 
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That’s an impressive wall of text you copied-and-pasted there.

Unfortunately, none of it confirms Papal Supremacy. At best, it acknowledges a tenuous sort of Papal Primacy
Oh, I never intended to claim those words were mine! Hardly!

Of course you believe “none of it confirms Papal Supremacy”, just like you will claim that the Council of Jerusalem doesn’t support Papal Supremacy. It would be great if you could assess the text and substantiate your claim of why “none of it confirms Papal Supremacy” instead of immediately inserting your already-biased opinion.
 
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That’s untenable and illogical. When Our Lord specifically gives the keys to Saint Peter alone (singular ‘you’ in the Greek) in Matthew 16, and for you to object to that by asking to whom He did not give the keys to, therefore anyone not mentioned could have the keys, is a non-sequitur argument.
Actually, no. It is a response to a rhetorical question: "Can you show me from Scripture alone where Our Lord gives anyone else but Saint Peter the keys? "

So if that is the framework you want a response from, there is the response. If we are working from “scripture alone”, you have to prove from scripture alone that only St Peter, not to mention future generations of bishops from only see, has exclusive control of the keys.
Yeah, I know, it’s referred to as Eastern conciliarism. Did it ever occur to you as to why the EO Church has never been able to successfully convene an Ecumenical Council in one thousand years, but yet the Catholic Church under papal supremacy has convened many since the Great Schism?
For the same reason Rome has not had a truly ecumenical council. The Schism. There have only been 7.
 
Of course you believe “none of it confirms Papal Supremacy”, just like you will claim that the Council of Jerusalem doesn’t support Papal Supremacy. It would be great if you could assess the text and substantiate your claim of why “none of it confirms Papal Supremacy” instead of immediately inserting your already-biased opinion.
And your opinion is not biased?
When during the council in Jerusalem is papal supremacy specifically conferred?
 
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