Merely distracted? I’ll bet you are understating this to be charitable.I, personally, would be distracted as to why we were using water and not wine, but that’s just me I guess.
Me? I’d refuse to receive.
Jon
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Me? I’d refuse to receive.
Jon
And that’s fine.
So, what does He tell us to do as a remembrance?
He tells us to eat His body and drink His blood. ISTM that for us to do what He specifically tells us to do to remember Him, the bread and wine **must **be His true and substantial body and blood.
Jon
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Dokimas
Guest
He also said to pluck out one’s eye and cut off one’s hand. Did He mean this literally?
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Dokimas
Guest
I have many times and both contexts tend to need a figurative understanding of both cases. Thanks for the advice.
M
menofstjoseph
Guest
And I think this is the point. That there is more to this that what can be proven by mere words on a page or use of historical proof.
Ultimately this truly does come down to faith. And for me, the fact that this is a matter of faith proves the real presence.
Christ knows that at some point he simply wants our faith to be in Him and beyond what our limited intellect is capable of. Those that do no believe in real presence are limiting what they think God can do.
As is demonstrated in this thread, there is enough evidence on both sides for each to feel they have a strong case, but only one side is putting God in box. Only one side is saying I don’t think God can do that.
What’s wrong with saying, I don’t understand it, I don’t know how He can do it, I don’t even know why He would do it, but I just believe. I have faith.
P
PJM
Guest
THE REPLY:
MY COMMENTS
YES! Spiritual hunger and thirst are as REAL; just not as evident as physical needs. And they are ARE FAR More IMPORTANT to take care of.
God Bles,
Pat
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Nicea325
Guest
Better yet,do you not distinguish a literal sense from a metaphor? Amazing how so many Protestants take the Bible literal when it jives with their teachings,but at times it is ONLY symbolic?
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CMatt25
Guest
That can be taken a couple of ways. How about it meaning to come to Him by believing Jesus would bring us eternal life away from hunger and thirst by what He was about to sacrifice for us on the cross?
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CMatt25
Guest
Very true as it is with other faith issues.
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Nicea325
Guest
Bad comparison. First of all, the burden of proof is on you to show me the overwhelming-historical evidence the early Christians taught and believed the Eucharist is symbolic? Likewise,how ironic the early church and Christian Church fought and defended against countless heresies,but a literal Eucharist is never mentioned?
I’ll wait for you to show me how the early church taught a symbolic Eucharist?
C
CMatt25
Guest
After placing faith in God, in the NT, in the Catholic Church’s interpretations, you then must place faith in the humans of the early church having had everything right from the get go. You must place faith in ECFs and the Catholic Church’s interpretations of their writings. Takes a lot of faith steps to get to where you are. But then the Apostle Paul said we walk by faith and not by sight. Maybe if you read for just an example, about Protestant thinking regarding Augustine and some things he said figuratively, you might get at least a better understanding of a different belief even if you yourself do not share the same faith. And one can believe in more than symbolic but at the same time in a real presence of God’s spirit. I understand all better now.
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Nicea325
Guest
Hhhmm? If it is the not the CC Christ founded and left,then tell me which church of thousands should I place my trust in? Remember my salvation is at stake,I do not take it lightly.
Precisely! And Jesus also promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and guide it into all truth-did He not? Is it not His mystical Body?
Oh I see! So we can have thousand of different interpretations like so many different churches do with the Bible? Sorry,but I am not into revisionism of history.
U-huh and one may believe openly gay men/women can be odained,yet it is all Biblical? No wait! Baptism is only for an adult and not for infants,but one needs to be immersed to make it valid. Likewise, female pastors are Biblical and while to others it is not? I did not know God promised a Holy Spirit teaching conflicting truths? Either Jesus who is God taught the Truth or He did not? Either He promised His Church the fullness of Truth or He did not?
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guanophore
Guest
No, CMatt. This is a false and misleading statement. God does not require perfection from humans in order to work infallible acts through them. In fact, scripture itself refutes your statement, since it is clear that the authors accomplished an infallible act by penning the NT, but the evidence is contained in those pages that noe of them “had everything right from the get go”. Again you have created a strawman, something the Catholic Church neither believes or teaches. One has to wonder why you engage in this type of behavior. What is served by you bringing calumny against the Catholic Church?
I find it curious that none of your “faith steps” involve God.
Has it ever occurred to you that Catholics can trust in God because He is divine and infallible?
Yes, indeed, the writings of the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church can be perverted just like the NT can.
T
TimothyH
Guest
I had just replied in another thread to someone who claimed that those who have no faith are so simply becuase they are ignorant, that because they refuse to study, that ecause one has not read the proper books, they lack faith.
Please forgive me if I carried my argument from that thread to this. I apologize.
-Tim-
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menofstjoseph
Guest
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guanophore
Guest
To take such a position, a person would have to be either confused, or diablically misled. I would prefer to believe you are confused.
It seems that you may be failing to distinguish between the Holy Church and the fallible men who are members of her. The Bride of Christ is incorruptible. The human beings who are part of her are not. If you are asserting here that the Church strays from good fruits, then you are in error. If you are asserting that some people in the Church have been bad trees, and bear bad fruit, then you are correct. However, even men falling away from holiness does not detract from the Truth. That is like saying that what Jesus taught was “bad fruit” because Judas did not believe and live it.
Your statements do not seem to reflect an understanding of the incarnational nature of the Church - that she has both divine and human elements.
Z
zrm54
Guest
We in the Churches of Christ have always understood the Lord’s Supper to be sacramental, along with Baptism. We prefer to leave it as a mystery and believe that the Lord said it was his body, therefore we joyfully partake. Just thought I’d throw in my :twocents:!
C
CMatt25
Guest
I don’t know any believer who takes it lightly. All one can do is place their faith where they believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them to be when they open their heart to God’s Spirit.
Just because something may or may not be “history” does not mean it is perfect. Many things have occured in history which have not exactly been good things. But neither does it mean something is not true. We simply truly do not know in matters of faith and belief as much as we may want to believe we do. That is why it is called faith. You may not be a revisionist but the Catholic Church has revised disciplines or guidelines thru the yrs.
Would a closeted gay priest having a secret homosexual relationship unbeknownst to you be Biblical? What about the priests who have molested children or the bishops would who have covered it up? Baptism by immersion of someone of a greater age than infancy is clearly found in the Bible. But assuming households had infants, there are examples of households being baptized as well. So it comes down to faith.
The question is not so much about whether Jesus promised truth. It is more about whether He has to correct or reform His Church and where He takes it, to prevent the gates from prevailing as He promised they would not do. And again that is where faith comes in. I do not understand why folks can not believe they “know” if that is what they need. While at the same time recognizing faith and belief is not the same as absolute certainty. I am sorry but that concept just totally escapes my reasoning. But I guess we may just have to agree to disagree. God bless you on your walk and peace.
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