The Eucharist: Real Presence or symbol?

[Nicea325]

Never said all were. Never meant to imply early Christians had it all wrong either. Sometimes I wonder if any of us have it all right.

Then I guess that makes Jesus a big fat liar? Again,he told the Apostles He would send the Advocate-did he not? Either Jesus is God or He was just a great deceiver?

In Christian faith salvation isn’t really all that risky. Instead of things like attend Mass on Tues Nov 1, 2011 and Thursday Dec 8, 2011 depending on your diocese in the world, and if you don’t, you need to repent before you die. Or else you die with a serious sin on your soul. And mortal sin is serious sin. So because you didn’t obey your particular bishop and missed those 2 weekday Masses in your life, you send yourself to hell.

Care to show me the Catholic doctrine saying one will go straight to Hell,if one misses Mass?

Sounds a bit legalistic to me.

Sounding legalistic and knowing exactly what the CC teaches differ vastly.

Examples Christ gave however of how the righteous reach eternal salvation included believing in Him for eternal life.

Yes believing is vital,but that alone is not sufficient. Does not scripture say even the demons believe? Are they saved too?

And expressing love for Him by serving the hungry, the homeless, the sick, the prisoner. The peacemakers are blessed. Well you know.

Yes the Beatitudes and Catholics should know Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy.

Ok. Revising disciplines throughout history wasn’t your point about revising history. Fair enough. I guess we can pick and choose.

Not at all,I am strictly referring to history and how many non-Catholics today want the early Church and ECF’s appear to be “Protestant” or “Fundamentalist” in their writings,teachings and beliefs. As I said,cannot revise early church history to jive with one’s novel beliefs. The ECF said what they said and meant what they meant.

Closeted gay priest in possible relationships had to do with the issue of what was Biblical which was brought up.

I did not know homosexuality is strictly binded to priest? Are you suggesting no Protestant minister can be in a homosexual relationship?

The gay politician you brought up is not running for priest or bishop. So that certainly has nothing to with it.

Priest do not ‘run’ for the priesthood. It is a calling and they either accept it or reject it.

Never said Protestants molesting children is Biblical either. But it is the Catholic Church that purports and represents Herself to be the one and only true Church of Christ. And yet we are to know them by their fruits.

And what part of sin do you not comprehend? Jesus founded a church for the sinners-did he not? Did not Jesus say: I am came for the sinners,not the righteous ?

Somewhere I mentioned households were baptized. Not sure if in the post you were responding to or not.

Understood.

 

[CMatt25]

Thanks for the clarification. So, if Catholics would tell you what you want to hear, would you then let it go? The things is, I don’t think that you will be told what you want to hear. I think that you want Catholics to think that the truths of the Catholic faith may indeed not actually be truth. If you can somehow plant uncertainty in the minds of Catholics, then maybe we will question our faith. But that’s not going to happen.

There was a time when I didn’t believe in such a thing as absolute truth. However, I now understand that those of us who believe in absolutes are a bit of a threat to the world, and the values of the world. I agree that we shouldn’t clobber people over the head with our beliefs, but, at the same time, we have to stand firm in what we believe. If a non-Catholic posts on a Catholic forum, they should expect that Catholics are going to stand up for what they believe. It’s a given, wouldn’t you say?

Hi Denise, I’ve posted more than once we may have to agree to disagree and let it go. But while I won’t name names certain posters more than others keep following me around it seems and bringing it up everywhere I go! I simply can not believe that anyone’s faith, not just Catholics, can be proclaimed to be for certain the truth. Well it can be proclaimed but to truly know with absolute 100% certainty is another thing I believe. Here we are on the non Catholic forum but yup many here stand up very well for what they believe! Peace my friend.

 

[CMatt25]

Real presence.
BUT
how many catholics really believe it?

I don’t know. We’ve probably aIl seen those polls showing a number of American Catholics do not believe at least in a physical presence. But then I believe many Christians believe in at least His Spirtitual real presence. I once asked a Disciples of Christ pastor about it. They have a Communion service weekly at their services. And he said we sure hope the spirit is present with us! Amen to that!

 

[CMatt25]

Hi, CMatt; You are aware that scripture teaches that the Church is the body of Christ right? It would appear that you have an understanding that a catholic believes in the Catholic Church? (“boy” talk about an “oxymoron” statement) as two different entities, when they are One comprising of One faith, One body, One baptism and One Lord. The body of Christ is comprised of many members all believing the same operating from different functions.

Did you know that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth? (see 1Timothy 3:15).

What is faith? Hebrews 11: 1 1
1 **Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen. **3
**By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. **

Hi Gabriel, yes but then we would have to get into all the Protestant beliefs about what is meant by the Church and the Body of Christ. And I don’t really feel like doing that at the moment. All have been discussed I am sure over and over and over again here on our forum to probably not much avail. Or at least perhaps not many minds are changed in such faith discussions.

And trust me. I know full well what makes one a Catholic and who the Church identifies as such. But again that’s another topic to the forum. And I know you don’t really want me to go into all that again right now!

Peace to you my brother in Christ.

 

[CMatt25]

Care to show me the Catholic doctrine saying one will go straight to Hell,if one misses Mass?

I did not know homosexuality is strictly binded to priest? Are you suggesting no Protestant minister can be in a homosexual relationship?

Of course the Catholic Church teaches purgatory. But She also says mortal sin is a serious offense. That it kills the grace in the soul and merits eternal damnation. And missing Mass is said to be a serious sin. So if one dies unrepentant of such a sin, as sin is defined by the Catholic Church I mean, I’ve been told on this forum as recent as today that the person would be sending themselves to hell. Only that the Church does not know one’s heart at death so does not actually say who is in hell. But the fact that none know the heart except God is of course a given.

No I do not suggest that at all. Only that it is the Catholic Church interpreting and proclaiming Herself to be Christ’s only one true Church. And I have less of a problem actually with homosexual priests than I do with how bishops for instance handled scandal not necessaily related to homosexuality at all. And yes I know all about the concept of following what they teach, not doing as they do. So no need for us to go into all of that. But I still question if a true Apostolic successor would not know better. And how by their fruits we are to know them. And then that brings into the picture for me the whole concept of infallible teaching whether it be on the Eucharist, the topic of this thread, or something else. Though I know Catholics separate teaching from other matters.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t know. We’ve probably aIl seen those polls showing a number of American Catholics do not believe at least in a physical presence. But then I believe many Christians believe in at least His Spirtitual real presence. I once asked a Disciples of Christ pastor about it. They have a Communion service weekly at their services. And he said we sure hope the spirit is present with us! Amen to that!

The first time that Jesus talked about him being the true Bread and Blood from heaven is when the devil first entered into Judas. That is when Christ knew that Judas would betray him.

The next time you hear Jesus speak of the Real Presence of himself in the bread and wine is at the Last Supper, That is again when Judas betrayed Jesus for the last time.

Judas could not accept that teaching of Christ. Jesus knew , did he not say to Judas AT the Last Supper GO and do what you must do.

Christ knew at the first teaching when many walked away who would accept this teaching and who would not. He told us, There are 12 of you, and one of you is the devil. That was at the teaching of the Eucharist.

If Jesus meant the real presence to be meant as a symbol why would anyone have trouble with this saying? Why would anyone walk away. They wouldn’t. Jesus knew what he was saying, and he knew who would accept this teaching and who would not.

As he turned to his Apostles and asked do you want to go also? Peter spoke up and said where would we go!! Jesus knew that while Peter did not understand at the time, his faith in Jesus would be enough until he did understand! And Understand he did, he was given the keys to the kingdom, the way the Pope has them still today, to continue the Last Supper as was asked of him by Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Of course the Catholic Church teaches purgatory. But She also says mortal sin is a serious offense. That it kills the grace in the soul and merits eternal damnation. And missing Mass is said to be a serious sin. So if one dies unrepentant of such a sin, as sin is defined by the Catholic Church I mean, I’ve been told on this forum as recent as today that the person would be sending themselves to hell. Only that the Church does not know one’s heart at death so does not actually say who is in hell. But the fact that none know the heart except God is of course a given.

No I do not suggest that at all. Only that it is the Catholic Church interpreting and proclaiming Herself to be Christ’s only one true Church. And I have less of a problem actually with homosexual priests than I do with how bishops for instance handled scandal not necessaily related to homosexuality at all. And yes I know all about the concept of following what they teach, not doing as they do. So no need for us to go into all of that. But I still question if a true Apostolic successor would not know better. And how by their fruits we are to know them. And then that brings into the picture for me the whole concept of infallible teaching whether it be on the Eucharist, the topic of this thread, or something else. Though I know Catholics separate teaching from other matters.

Where did Christ ever say that his Apostles would be perfect? Where were any of the Apostles ever Perfect? Christ never said they would not be without sin, he never even said they would not turn on him, One of his Apostles actually did, and turned to the devil, as I stated before Judas.

Jesus promised us one thing, that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit and the Pope and Bishops would speak in his voice by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Holy SPirit cannot fail.

Now tell me this, would you say then because Judas sinned and was taken over by the devil the teaching of Christ that he did teach was false then??

 

[CMatt25]

The first time that Jesus talked about him being the true Bread and Blood from heaven is when the devil first entered into Judas. That is when Christ knew that Judas would betray him.

The next time you hear Jesus speak of the Real Presence of himself in the bread and wine is at the Last Supper, That is again when Judas betrayed Jesus for the last time.

Judas could not accept that teaching of Christ. Jesus knew , did he not say to Judas AT the Last Supper GO and do what you must do.

Christ knew at the first teaching when many walked away who would accept this teaching and who would not. He told us, There are 12 of you, and one of you is the devil. That was at the teaching of the Eucharist.

If Jesus meant the real presence to be meant as a symbol why would anyone have trouble with this saying? Why would anyone walk away. They wouldn’t. Jesus knew what he was saying, and he knew who would accept this teaching and who would not.

As he turned to his Apostles and asked do you want to go also? Peter spoke up and said where would we go!! Jesus knew that while Peter did not understand at the time, his faith in Jesus would be enough until he did understand! And Understand he did, he was given the keys to the kingdom, the way the Pope has them still today, to continue the Last Supper as was asked of him by Christ.

Rinnie, I might not know everything about truth but I know you have said the same before somewhere and I have given a reply about Judas and why people walked. So I won’t bother again now. But just regarding the keys. Don’t forget the other Apostles were given the power to bind and loosen too. And what is the function of keys? To bind and loosen! And the greatest is the one who is humble as a child. Alrighty I am now going for a burger

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, I might not know everything about truth but I know you have said the same before somewhere and I have given a reply about Judas and why people walked. So I won’t bother again now. But just regarding the keys. Don’t forget the other Apostles were given the power to bind and loosen too. And what is the function of keys? To bind and loosen! And the greatest is the one who is humble as a child. Alrighty I am now going for a burger

Could you refresh my memory And while you are doing that could you show me where the other Apostles were given the keys to the kingdom I missed that one too. Of course after your get that burger, Enjoy!

P.S to bind and loose is to forgive sin, of course all of the Apostles were given the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins.

But to have the keys to the kingdom means to have authority and to answer to one person and one person only The King, which would of course mean Christ.

If you look it up in the O.T you will see, I am telling you the truth. The prime Minister held the keys for the King, Check it out. The Prime Minister holding the keys gives him authority over others, Again check it out in the O.T. ITs history Man!

 

[Nicea325]

Of course the Catholic Church teaches purgatory.

Purgatory is not Hell. I asked for the document stating people will go straight to Hell,if they miss Mass?

But She also says mortal sin is a serious offense. That it kills the grace in the soul and merits eternal damnation. And missing Mass is said to be a serious sin. So if one dies unrepentant of such a sin, as sin is defined by the Catholic Church I mean, I’ve been told on this forum as recent as today that the person would be sending themselves to hell. Only that the Church does not know one’s heart at death so does not actually say who is in hell. But the fact that none know the heart except God is of course a given.

God and God alone determines where each and one of us will spend eternity.

No I do not suggest that at all. Only that it is the Catholic Church interpreting and proclaiming Herself to be Christ’s only one true Church.

Well care to tell me which non-Catholic church out of tens of thousands is Christ only and true Church?

And I have less of a problem actually with homosexual priests than I do with how bishops for instance handled scandal not necessaily related to homosexuality at all.

Again,you seem to fixiate only on homosexual priests and turn the blind eye and fail to accept the fact it is a human issue,not a RCC one exclusively. BTW: Homosexuality and child molesters are two separate issues. Being gay does not equate into being a child molester.

And yes I know all about the concept of following what they teach, not doing as they do. So no need for us to go into all of that. But I still question if a true Apostolic successor would not know better.

True Apostolic Successor would know better? Hhmmm? Let me briefly tell you about an Apostle named Peter. Peter flat out DENIED Jesus,not once,but three times. Did Jesus condemn Peter? Quite the contrary,He asked Peter three times if he loved Jesus. So your whole presmise is bogus because none of the Apostles were clean and perfect. How many stood by the foot of the cross? One if I recall,the other 11?

And how by their fruits we are to know them.

So an entire church of faithful followers is clumped into your barrel of ‘bad’ fruits?

And then that brings into the picture for me the whole concept of infallible teaching whether it be on the Eucharist, the topic of this thread, or something else. Though I know Catholics separate teaching from other matters.

Not uncommon. You confuse impeccability with infallibility,two separate things.

 

[CMatt25]

Purgatory is not Hell. I asked for the document stating people will go straight to Hell,if they miss Mass?

God and God alone determines where each and one of us will spend eternity.

Well care to tell me which non-Catholic church out of tens of thousands is Christ only and true Church?

Again,you seem to fixiate only on homosexual priests and turn the blind eye and fail to accept the fact it is a human issue,not a RCC one exclusively. BTW: Homosexuality and child molesters are two separate issues. Being gay does not equate into being a child molester.

True Apostolic Successor would know better? Hhmmm? Let me briefly tell you about an Apostle named Peter. Peter flat out DENIED Jesus,not once,but three times. Did Jesus condemn Peter? Quite the contrary,He asked Peter three times if he loved Jesus. So your whole presmise is bogus because none of the Apostles were clean and perfect. How many stood by the foot of the cross? One if I recall,the other 11?

So an entire church of faithful followers is clumped into your barrel of ‘bad’ fruits?

Not uncommon. You confuse impeccability with infallibility,two separate things.

Oh my goodness. That is why I SAID you teach purgatory. It is not hell. And I discussed things the Church has said about mortal and serious sins and who merits eternal damnation. I am not going to repeat it. Look at Outlines of the Catholic Faith by the Leaflet Missal Co, 1980, Imprimatur Archbishop St Paul and Minneapolis, if you need to find out more about mortal and serious sin.

And I addressed your concerns about what I thought about Protestant gay clergy and even said homosexual priests are not a problem to me. And you think I am fixated on homosexual priests? And to top it off I even said the scandal was not necessarily at all related to homosexuality. And yet you see a need to say to me BTW they are not equated? That is what I already said. Did you even read what I said?

And I understand people sin. But that fact does not preclude me from pondering whether Apostolic successors who go around preaching the sanctity of life, did not know better than to cover up the sins of others against children. I have to wonder if they have become among the false teachers we were warned of which by their fruits we would know them. If you don’t ponder that, that’s up to you. But I’m done responding to you about any of this because it doesn’t appear you actually read what I write.

 

[CMatt25]

Could you refresh my memory And while you are doing that could you show me where the other Apostles were given the keys to the kingdom I missed that one too. Of course after your get that burger, Enjoy!

P.S to bind and loose is to forgive sin, of course all of the Apostles were given the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins.

But to have the keys to the kingdom means to have authority and to answer to one person and one person only The King, which would of course mean Christ.

If you look it up in the O.T you will see, I am telling you the truth. The prime Minister held the keys for the King, Check it out. The Prime Minister holding the keys gives him authority over others, Again check it out in the O.T. ITs history Man!

Rinnie you can do a search if you’re interested. But it had to do with Judas not accepting Christ would give up His flesh and blood on the cross. And people walking because Jesus had already told them He was talking of the Spirit but they kept thinking He was speaking literally. And perhaps neither did they believe Jesus was the Son who came down from heaven to give up His flesh and blood for us.

And the rest about bind and loose you can find in Matt 18:18. And it is my belief that is what keys do. And the greatest humbles himself as a child and I don’t see a lot of humility when I hear “I’m right and you’re wrong” all the time. Or when I look towards the Vatican and see a lot of pomp and circumstance. But you can believe differently. That’s fine. That’s why we call it faith. Peace be with you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

THE REPLY:

MY COMMENTS

YES! Spiritual hunger and thirst are as REAL; just not as evident as physical needs. And they are ARE FAR More IMPORTANT to take care of.

God Bles,
Pat

What do you mean spiritual hunger and thirst? Wasn’t Jesus talking to those that were looking for a free meal?
Jn.6
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

 

[Denise1957]

Hi Denise, I’ve posted more than once we may have to agree to disagree and let it go. But while I won’t name names certain posters more than others keep following me around it seems and bringing it up everywhere I go! I simply can not believe that anyone’s faith, not just Catholics, can be proclaimed to be for certain the truth. Well it can be proclaimed but to truly know with absolute 100% certainty is another thing I believe. Here we are on the non Catholic forum but yup many here stand up very well for what they believe! Peace my friend.

Hi CMatt25, I find it rather amusing that people are following you around and bringing it up everywhere you go. We Catholics are annoying in that that way!

I won’t bug you about this again, but regarding what you said about not believing that anyone’s faith can be proclaimed for certain, well, St. Augustine also had a problem with this, before his conversion. He wrote about it in his autobiography called “Confessions.” He eventually got over it, obviously, and I hope that you do, too! Anyway, this will be my last post for awhile, since I’m giving up CAF for Lent, but bless you, and I wish you a joyful and fruitful Eastertide.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie you can do a search if you’re interested. But it had to do with Judas not accepting Christ would give up His flesh and blood on the cross. And people walking because Jesus had already told them He was talking of the Spirit but they kept thinking He was speaking literally. And perhaps neither did they believe Jesus was the Son who came down from heaven to give up His flesh and blood for us.

And the rest about bind and loose you can find in Matt 18:18. And it is my belief that is what keys do. And the greatest humbles himself as a child and I don’t see a lot of humility when I hear “I’m right and you’re wrong” all the time. Or when I look towards the Vatican and see a lot of pomp and circumstance. But you can believe differently. That’s fine. That’s why we call it faith. Peace be with you.

Then if it had to do with Jesus saying he was speaking of his Spirit and not literally why then Matt would this be a hard saying, and hard to accept then? Why in the world would they walk away from that?

You tell me then, what is harder to accept in your opinion, that the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Christ or it being a symbol?

And next about the keys to the kingdom, are we here to learn the truth about what the Apostles taught, or are we here to learn what you think? I mean if you want me to go through scripture and read it, and tell you what I think it means, what good would that do? I am not God, nor do I have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture.

Also what does you looking at the Vatican and seeing what you claim you are seeing, have to do with the Holy Spirit that was promised to the Apostles at Pentecost?

And while it may be fine by you that we all believe what we choose to believe (personally I feel the same way) its not fine by Christ. He said there is only ONE truth. So what makes again what we feel trump what Jesus taught?

 

[rinnie]

Hi CMatt25, I find it rather amusing that people are following you around and bringing it up everywhere you go. We Catholics are annoying in that that way!

I won’t bug you about this again, but regarding what you said about not believing that anyone’s faith can be proclaimed for certain, well, St. Augustine also had a problem with this, before his conversion. He wrote about it in his autobiography called “Confessions.” He eventually got over it, obviously, and I hope that you do, too! Anyway, this will be my last post for awhile, since I’m giving up CAF for Lent, but bless you, and I wish you a joyful and fruitful Eastertide.

Denise, I know this is off topic, but talk about strange, I am reading that book as we speak

 

[PJM]

=Nicea325;7627243]Purgatory is not Hell. I asked for the document stating people will go straight to Hell,if they miss Mass?

**God and God alone determines where each and one of us will spend eternity. **

Actually friend; that is an incorrect statement. By virtue of our Minds, Intellects, FREEWILLS and Souls; itie WE; YOU AND ME; who decide where we want to spend Eternity. God SIMPLY AFFIRMS OUR PERSONAL CHOICES.

True Apostolic Successor would know better? Hhmmm? Let me briefly tell you about an Apostle named Peter. Peter flat out DENIED Jesus,not once,but three times. Did Jesus condemn Peter? Quite the contrary,He asked Peter three times if he loved Jesus. So your whole presmise is bogus because none of the Apostles were clean and perfect. How many stood by the foot of the cross? One if I recall,the other 11?

So an entire church of faithful followers is clumped into your barrel of ‘bad’ fruits?

Not uncommon. You confuse impeccability with infallibility,two separate things.

It is a very common and serious error to lump “The Mystical body of Christ” [the Catholic human-population"] and “The CC” as being one and the same.

It is no-more true of us Catholics; than makingth same judgment of every other faith.

“The Mystical body” is physical [with a spiritual element]
The Chuch is Spiritual [with a physical element]

We are finite
The CC is Infinite

We are [at times VERY] imperfect
The CC is Perfect [READ Jn. 14:16-17, and Jn.17: 15-19; and 2nd. Tim. 3;16-17]

We are guided by the HS
The Church is BOTH Guided and GUARDED by the HS

We can teach incorrectly even on Faith and Morals [when we do not conform to CC Teaachings]
The Chrch cannot be in erroron NAY Teaching on Faith, Morals and what the Bible actualy say’s… IMPOSSIBLE.

While it is Convenient to BLAME th Church for the sins of her Hurman and VERY fallible members; it it both an injustice and inacurate to do so.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=Richard Kastner;7628042]What do you mean spiritual hunger and thirst? Wasn’t Jesus talking to those that were looking for a free meal?
Jn.6
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Hi Richard,

Yes BUT… these same Jews were 1. Unbeleiving: COULD NOT ACCEPT that Christ was and IS God.

AND these same folks were the ones who abandoned Christ because they “saw” his humanity; BUT could not; and did not see His Divinity. THUS they [LIKE MOST PROTESTANTS] thought Christ was speaking of in Canrnal / mortal flesh; WHEN IN FACT IT WAS AND IS HIS GLORIFID, RISEN BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY, THAT CHRIST WAS SPEAKING OF [VRS. 63-64], AND WHAT WE CATHOLIC RECEIVE IN HOLY COMMUNION.

GREAT question, THANKS!

Pat

 

[Denise1957]

Denise, I know this is off topic, but talk about strange, I am reading that book as we speak

Hi rinnie, just a quick response here. It’s so cool that you’re reading Confessions. I don’t have the book in front of me, but I think it’s around page 83 or so that St. Augustine talks about the ‘certainty’ issue. I keep the book in my locker at work to read when I’m on my dinner break. God bless!

 

[4thetruth]

Yes, that’s the reason for Jesus allowing His Body to be broken and His Blood to be shed. And we need to remember that’s what happened on the Cross. I still think we take ‘Holy Communion’ to remind us.

Dokimas,

I think its important to understand what remembrance meant to the Jews of the time. Not just what it means today. The word translated as remembrance is the greek anamnesis. It has a similar meaning to the Hebrew word zikaron. In the Jewish understanding, zikaron meant much more than just a mental recollection. It meant a participation in a past event. When passover was celebrated it was not just a mental recollection. It made the exodus present to those celebrating it.

So when Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me.” The apostle would have understood this as a zikaron. That the event would be made present to them. This is what happens in the Eucharist. Jesus’ sacrifice is made present.

This is not just a catholic interpretation of the word. With a quick google search, I was able to find this understanding of the word zikaron from the Jewish community.